I found the missing Jolt.

For the newbies and lurkers, it's been very well established that FalseFlag has no business saying anything about physics. He has publicly demonstrated that he is unable to use the basic concepts of velocity and acceleration as rates of change (of position and velocity respectively). In the end, FalseFlag was not even able to guess the values near the peak of an acceleration curve based on NIST's analysis of the collapse of WTC7, even though the peak of this curve showed the infamous "2.25 seconds of freefall" which is so often quoted by truthers.

So, in the end, FalseFlag doesn't even know this basic physics factoid:
"Freefall" is ~32 feet / second2, and the graph line in question was obviously at 30 feet / second2.


Just remember, there's ample reason to ignore anything FalseFlag has to say regarding physics.

I would never use False Flag and physics in the same sentence, seems like a totally illogical statement.
Given that the towers energy value at the scale in question, with false flags first thread, would match small graphite rods, suspending glass plates. That's the model Cole's should have use to understand structural behavior on this scale he wishes to use.
 
The collapse mechanics of these towers are engineering, statics and physics matters. Anyone who is not facile in these disciplines can only offer uninformed speculation. As an architect I have some training in structure and engineering but the mechanics of these collapses are above my pay grade. For sure this applies to virtually all truth guys... Yet it doesn't stop them from trying to use their mickey mouse understanding of physics to support their ideas in some cases.... and in most other cases to try to undermine the so call "official narrative". We hear things like the laws of physics had to be suspended for those collapses to have taken place without CD devices.

Gage is clearly in way over his head and poses as some sort of expert. His marketing of his group and their beliefs is pathetic relying on all the tricks of snake oil salesmen and cult leaders.... who DO manage to convince naive people not unsurprisingly.

Tony should know better as an practicing mechanical engineer. Why he clings to his disproven conceptions is beyond me. I suspect like Gage, they are too far down the rabbit hole to back out and suffer the blows to their egos. As long as they maintain the facade that they are credible... and people support them they avoid the embarrassment of admitting they were completely wrong. That sort of admission in light of all their public efforts is very very difficult.

Gordon Ross... when he realized he was incorrect... faded back to the obscurity he had. But he was not as much a public advocate of junk science as Gage and Cole are.

I see the truth movement very much as I see cults such as scientology. Their leaders and followers cling to their fiction despite science showing that it's nonsense. And they continue to attract more followers and with them their money. And they all believe they are correct in their thinking and it's almost impossible to get them to see things correctly.

It's a testament to limited technical knowledge of so many people and the power of ego and self esteem... that people need to cling to and have their wrong headed beliefs supported.
 
The collapse mechanics of these towers are engineering, statics and physics matters. Anyone who is not facile in these disciplines can only offer uninformed speculation. As an architect I have some training in structure and engineering but the mechanics of these collapses are above my pay grade. For sure this applies to virtually all truth guys... Yet it doesn't stop them from trying to use their mickey mouse understanding of physics to support their ideas in some cases.... and in most other cases to try to undermine the so call "official narrative". We hear things like the laws of physics had to be suspended for those collapses to have taken place without CD devices.

Gage is clearly in way over his head and poses as some sort of expert. His marketing of his group and their beliefs is pathetic relying on all the tricks of snake oil salesmen and cult leaders.... who DO manage to convince naive people not unsurprisingly.

Tony should know better as an practicing mechanical engineer. Why he clings to his disproven conceptions is beyond me. I suspect like Gage, they are too far down the rabbit hole to back out and suffer the blows to their egos. As long as they maintain the facade that they are credible... and people support them they avoid the embarrassment of admitting they were completely wrong. That sort of admission in light of all their public efforts is very very difficult.

Gordon Ross... when he realized he was incorrect... faded back to the obscurity he had. But he was not as much a public advocate of junk science as Gage and Cole are.

I see the truth movement very much as I see cults such as scientology. Their leaders and followers cling to their fiction despite science showing that it's nonsense. And they continue to attract more followers and with them their money. And they all believe they are correct in their thinking and it's almost impossible to get them to see things correctly.

It's a testament to limited technical knowledge of so many people and the power of ego and self esteem... that people need to cling to and have their wrong headed beliefs supported.

Agreed, and that is totally obvious, a bunch of people with no Knowledge of structure, and probably a few screws loose as well.
I find it ironical Dylan Avery's first movie, Loose Change, brought out a lot of people like them with Screws
Loose.
 
I would love to see Cole, Gage and TSz debate the skeptics.

Seriously, those three couldn't win a debate against ME for chrissake. Not with an impartial audience, and not if they were forced to be HONEST.

That last word being the major stumbling block between their knowledge and the truth. 10 minutes of honest from any of them and their CD fantasy will be over.
 
For everyone else in the universe aside from pedantic truther liars, "The North Tower Struck WTC 7" is just fine.

I don't mind them calling it debris. I do mind them trying to downplay it though. The friggin building got clobbered with tons of it.



Look closely and you can see the building shake from the southwest corner hit.

Oh no, that's just a dust bunny.

:rolleyes:
 
No. It's good enough to say debris from WTC 1 struck WTC 7.
Is it good enough to say WTC7 collapsed in 6 seconds?

Is it good enough to say WTC7 collapsed at free fall speeds?

Is it good enough to say WTC7 collapsed symmetrically?

Why do you and others single out certain characteristics of the ENTIRE collapse and then descriptively apply them TO the ENTIRE collapse?
 
I would love to see Cole, Gage and TSz debate the skeptics.
Question for you regarding Gage as you seem to support what he has to say.

Is it ok, in your eyes, for him to publish brochures and documents that contain a statment like the following?

WTC Building 7 implodes at freefall acceleration for 8 stories of its 6.5-second fall, baffling architects and engineers around the world who try to make sense out of the official “collapse by fire” explanation.

I guess you're ok with him lying when he states that ENTIRE WTC7 structure collapsed in 6.5 seconds?
 
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WTC Building 7 implodes at freefall acceleration for 8 stories of its 6.5-second fall, baffling architects and engineers around the world who try to make sense out of the official “collapse by fire” explanation.

Such dishonest parsing and overblown rhetoric is par for the course for truthers.
 
The only rules should be that the other poster isn't allowed to ignore any point that is brought up and that posts should be technical and not personal. Anything more than that is just providing potential 'get outs' and making it more likely that the debate will end up being about who has followed the rules and who hasn't.
I think that's not practical or fair. See the debate between Oystein and Jay Howard. The topics multiplied and soon it was a big mess that took a huge toll on the debaters. The last post took Jay two months to write, and its extension was overwhelming. Oystein simply never replied to it, and I don't know if he ever plans to. I can sympathize with him when confronted with such a wall of text, but that's not the point. The point is that ignoring some points is basically a necessity. Otherwise, the post length grows exponentially, or the length limit (if there's one) is hit, precluding posters from addressing all of the points raised.

If there is a salient point that has not been addressed by the other debater, it's up to the poster to note its importance and to suggest the other poster that it should be addressed.
 
Lets debate a fantasy, the fantasy of CD and aircraft used as a ruse

... posts should be technical ...
A debate on the fantasy of CD, how will that be technical?

... - it's about determining what is the truth.
Fire caused the collapse of 7 WTC, the truth known for 14 years.

This is not about truth, it is about a silly paranoid conspiracy theory of CD based on aircraft being a ruse. Will the fantasy of aircraft ruse be explained? Evidence presented? No, the fantasy includes posters here being paid; wow.

At least they are moving to a venue where it is neutral... lol
http://the911forum.freeforums.org/duplicitous-blowhard-tfk-at-it-again-t726.html
Neutral as the day is long. The thread of the unfinished plot, "Payback is a Beachy: Tony Szamboti working thread", totally neutral, or what.


Cheers! It looks as dead as most Truther forums. Why would it be a good place for this debate? (not that there's any good place for it - knockabout stuff here can be somewhat amusing, I suppose)
Dead? The place is hopping with... wait, the only traffic is about ... lol
http://the911forum.freeforums.org/just-plain-idiots-split-from-smart-idiots-t576-345.html
I am not being paid to increase traffic to the forum where posts of a paranoid 9/11 nut is stalking me and my family... lol.

Is there a need to debunk the fantasy of CD, and aircraft used as a ruse for CD? Okay, it is cool to see 9/11 truth fanatics make up BS to back in CD, and avoid explain why there is no evidence.
Why the other forum? They had some good deals pop up on Clorox for your pool, grand-kids need a clean pool - plus I get 60 hits or so...

posting from the hot tub - next the pub - take the weekend off, Tony knows we are the NWO shills ... the gig is up
 
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I guess you didn't hear him say that he was "speculating". When you say you are speculating about something, you are not lying. You are merely speculating.

I admit that his speculation about explosives being planted in the 1980's is extremely far-fetched. This does not help his credibility. I wonder why he would have said this, and when he said it.

I admit that known examples of CD are complicated endeavors. That is a fact. There is no reason to deny it.

What the skeptics fail to admit is that they don't know everything. They assume that all CD must be the same. That is speculation. It is not fact; it is speculation.

Skeptics can make all of the arguments they want against CD, but physics shows that the official story is wrong. If the official story is wrong, what brought down WTC1, 2 and 7? Many signs point to CD. The only way we will ever find out is to get a new investigation.


First of all, there is not a single piece of evidence that points to controlled demolition regarding WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7. Such explosions make a lot of noise that can be heard for miles.

Secondly, if explosives were used to bring down those buildings, seismic monitors in the general area would have detected the signals, yet operators of those seismic monitors have stated that their seismic monitors did not detect such signals that would have indicated the use of explosives. I saw the WTC videos and at no time did I see or hear demolition explosions.

Thirdly, no evidence of explosives was ever found in the rubble of the WTC buildings. Let's do a review at this link.


Demolition Vs. World Trade Center: Audio Comparison

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmS36uSdtvw


WTC Pre-Collapse Bowing Debunks 9/11 "Controlled Demolition" Theory

Scientists investigating the Sept. 11, 2001 collapse of the twin towers said, "the World Trade Center towers showed telltale signs they were about to collapse several minutes before each crumbled to the ground." There would not be telltale signs if it was explosives (Controlled Demolition) that caused the buildings to collapse.

http://www.representativepress.org/BowingDebunksExplosives.html


Report issued by Lamont-Doherty

The report issued by Lamont-Doherty includes various graphs showing the seismic readings produced by the planes crashing into the two towers as well as the later collapse of both buildings. WhatReallyHappened.com chooses to display only one graph (Graph 1), which shows the readings over a 30-minute time span.

On that graph, the 8- and 10-second collapses appear misleadingly as a pair of sudden spikes. Lamont-Doherty's 40-second plot of the same data (Graph 2) gives a much more detailed picture: The seismic waves blue for the South Tower, red for the North Tower start small and then escalate as the buildings rumble to the ground. Translation: no bombs.


Did experts on the scene think WTC 7 was a controlled demolition?

"Several demolition teams had reached Ground Zero by 3:00 pm on 9/11, and these individuals witnessed the collapse of WTC 7 from within a few hundred feet of the event.

We have spoken with several who possess extensive experience in explosive demolition, and all reported seeing or hearing nothing to indicate an explosive detonation precipitating the collapse.

As one eyewitness told us, "We were all standing around helpless...we knew full well it was going to collapse. Everyone there knew. You gotta remember there was a lot of confusion and we didn't know if another plane was coming...but I never heard explosions like demo charges.

https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/didexpertsonthescenethinkwtc7resembledac


In other words, overwhelming facts and evidence have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that at no time were explosives used to bring down WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7.
 
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Secondly, if explosives were used to bring down those buildings, seismic monitors in the general area would have detected the signals, yet operators of those seismic monitors have stated that their seismic monitors did not detect such signals that would have indicated the use of explosives. I saw the WTC videos and at no time did I see or hear demolition explosions.

Report issued by Lamont-Doherty

The report issued by Lamont-Doherty includes various graphs showing the seismic readings produced by the planes crashing into the two towers as well as the later collapse of both buildings. WhatReallyHappened.com chooses to display only one graph (Graph 1), which shows the readings over a 30-minute time span.

On that graph, the 8- and 10-second collapses appear misleadingly as a pair of sudden spikes. Lamont-Doherty's 40-second plot of the same data (Graph 2) gives a much more detailed picture: The seismic waves blue for the South Tower, red for the North Tower start small and then escalate as the buildings rumble to the ground. Translation: no bombs.
In the 1980s I stood in for the seismologist tech at a remote Arctic station while she went out on vacation. At that time one still had to take the photographic paper rolls to a darkroom and develop them, all digital now probably.
Since I was a stand in all I did was develop them and ship them out to Ottawa. However she showed me a few examples of past earthquakes our vault had picked up, and a few Soviet nuke tests, as well as a open pit coal mine overburden blast. There is a world of difference in the signatures. If the seismic experts say no explosions were seen on the record, then no explosions were seen.
 
WTC Pre-Collapse Bowing Debunks 9/11 "Controlled Demolition" Theory

Scientists investigating the Sept. 11, 2001 collapse of the twin towers said, "the World Trade Center towers showed telltale signs they were about to collapse several minutes before each crumbled to the ground." There would not be telltale signs if it was explosives (Controlled Demolition) that caused the buildings to collapse.

Hi and welcome :)

Just continue with the background to this madhouse forum, you might want to know that one of the regular Truthers here, Tony Szamboti, has been shown a series of photos showing exactly this inward bowing some minutes before collapse, complete with exif data. I think I recall it was a police helicopter that took the photos.

His only response was to demand video, as if this is the be-all of evidence. Lacking video, the evidence was rejected :rolleyes:
 
Hi and welcome :)

Just continue with the background to this madhouse forum, you might want to know that one of the regular Truthers here, Tony Szamboti, has been shown a series of photos showing exactly this inward bowing some minutes before collapse, complete with exif data. I think I recall it was a police helicopter that took the photos.

His only response was to demand video, as if this is the be-all of evidence. Lacking video, the evidence was rejected :rolleyes:

Thank you!

Tony should take a look at this video. The corner of WTC 2 buckles and there is no sound demolition explosions.


WTC close up of South Tower buckling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rbfLLp7rBI
 
I guess you didn't hear him say that he was "speculating". When you say you are speculating about something, you are not lying. You are merely speculating.

The quality of one’s understanding of any topic is VERY WELL exposed by their speculations.

When someone understands some phenomenon, then one can speculate accurately.

When one does not understand some phenomenon, then one’s speculations are wildly out of touch with reality.

Gage’s speculations are wildly out of touch with reality.

He doesn’t have the slightest idea that explosives have expiration dates.

He isn’t aware of the fact that, if explosives were placed on columns during construction (early 1970’s for the towers), or during renovations (all thru their 30 year life), then those same explosives would have been exposed to the hundreds of workers who finished each floors’ construction.

He isn’t aware of the fact that, every time some electrician or construction worker exposed behind the walls, or the wire running areas above the ceiling or below the floor, they would have run into miles of “mystery wire”. Do you have any idea how careful electricians are when identifying the type of wire that they are digging into, when running AC, phone lines, data lines, etc.? Do you have any concept of how many times these miles of det cord & initiator wire would have been found?

What the hell do YOU think would happen if some worker pulls off some wall to do some maintenance or remodeling … and finds explosive charges wired to the structural columns…??!! Do you really think that he ignores it?

The whole thing is 100% looney tunes.

Which exposes exactly how little Gage understands about building construction, maintenance, renovation, etc.

But he IS an architect. Supposedly, he’s worked on building renovation.
So he can NOT claim ignorance about what goes on in

I admit that his speculation about explosives being planted in the 1980's is extremely far-fetched. This does not help his credibility. I wonder why he would have said this, and when he said it.

The ONLY explanation is that this moronic claim shows how much he cares about pushing his giant fabrication & how little he cares about telling the truth.

I admit that known examples of CD are complicated endeavors. That is a fact. There is no reason to deny it.

But, wait for it…
You’re about to do exactly that … deny it.

What the skeptics fail to admit is that they don't know everything. They assume that all CD must be the same. That is speculation. It is not fact; it is speculation.

And there it is.
Your denial of the fact that “the single largest building demolitions ever attempted do not have to be complicated endeavors.”

Now, let me explain a little about “speculation”.

As I said above, the quality of one’s speculation is determined by the quality of one’s understanding of the topic.

Mark Loiseaux’s speculation about giant building demolition is superb. He’s a world class expert in the field.

Your speculation, & Richard Gage’s speculation, & Jonathan Cole’s speculation, and Tony Szamboti’s speculation isn’t worth a fart in a hurricane.
__

Also, regarding “speculation”.

The speculation that it would be a massive complex endeavor, incapable of being hidden from the occupants, is based on the REALITY of every other CD ever performed.

Your speculation that “the CD of three skyscrapers in NYC does not need to be “a really complicated endeavor” or “destined to be found by maintenance workers if left for months/years/decades”, is speculation based upon … not one CD ever performed prior to this date.

It is based on nothing except your clueless fantasy about what would be required.

Skeptics can make all of the arguments they want against CD, but physics shows that the official story is wrong.

You … and physics.

How many times do we have to go thru this?

If the official story is wrong, what brought down WTC1, 2 and 7?

Simple.
NOTHING was capable of bringing down those building, without leaving a trace on video, in decades of recorded information about the maintenance of the building, etc. EXCEPT exactly what was seen.

No space ray beams, no mini-nukes, no HAARP rays, no thermite & no Hush-A-Boom CDs.

Many signs point to CD. The only way we will ever find out is to get a new investigation.

ZERO signs point to CD.
Not one single thing.

A mountain of proof exists that there could not possibly have been a CD.

Clueless wishful thinking on the part of twisted little boys, delusions of moral & intellectual superiority is the ONLY thing that suggests … well, it does NOT suggest CDs. It suggests only the fact that twisted little boys seem to be powerless to suppress their delusions of moral & intellectual superiority.

Your delusions of moral & intellectual superiority are exactly as fake as your delusions of understanding physics.

Don’t you think that it’s about time that you grew up?
 
Tony should know better as an practicing mechanical engineer. Why he clings to his disproven conceptions is beyond me. I suspect like Gage, they are too far down the rabbit hole to back out and suffer the blows to their egos. As long as they maintain the facade that they are credible... and people support them they avoid the embarrassment of admitting they were completely wrong. That sort of admission in light of all their public efforts is very very difficult.

There can be endless speculation as to WHY Tony follows down this path.

Incompetence & ego are necessary components.

But in one of my next posts, I'm going to demonstrate exactly HOW he maintains his delusions.

He does so by ignoring expert comments, observations, calculations.

He immerses himself in a sea of clueless amateurs, tells them what they want to hear, reaps their worthless, knowledge-free admiration & then massages his ego with the thought that he is the towering intellect in this sea of stupidity.

The fact is that any professional, no matter how clueless, can pull the wool over the eyes of today's "information sources", such as the media.

This was totally obvious with Szamboti's interview with the colossal moron, Geraldo Rivera. Rivera, being an absolutely clueless moron, doesn't have the "reporter common sense" to bring on experts on both sides of the issue, when discussing topics he is clueless about.

Then the Twoofers look at Rivera's comments, "well, I'll have to look at this a little harder", as some giant victory.

The clueless, doing little victory dances when joined by other clueless morons.

What a victory.
 

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