The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

[PartSkeptic]

It's not just Mormons. All of the mainstream Christian variations believe the same.

That matter was pre-existing?

I said:

"And theists call that God - an entity with intelligence and the ability to "cause" things to start happening."

Pup said -

"But you don't speak for all theists, because not all theists call that entity god. Mormons believe matter is eternal, and was organized by God (the God of Genesis) but not created."

King James Bible - Genesis {1:1} In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Apparently the word "create" is the English translation, but some say the meaning (at the time it was written) was more a "manufacture from existing material". Joseph Smith takes this view, that matter is eternal just like God.

While interesting, I think we are splitting hairs. My phrasing does not say "create out of nothing". It says cause things to happen. It can be taken either way.

If matter always existed, it was apparently inert and useless. What state was it in? Just quantum fields, with no matter yet?

Do all theists not postulate that God (or the Gods) are able to manipulate the laws of physics so as to "cause" supernatural events? Some may have their Gods be a bit limited, like super-humans, but this discussion started with the Kalam argument, and William Craig.

Jimbob quoted WLC:

In The Kalām Cosmological Argument, he formulates the argument in the following manner:

Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence

WLC says that the "cause" is God. Begin to exist is a bit ambiguous as to whether the matter was there already or not, but it seems it had no inclination to be self-forming (no time, no space, no quantum fields?), or it came from nothing but the will of God.

The problem I have with WLC is that he uses phrases and words that are so complex that many times I cannot figure out what his point is.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Capriciousness is not essential to intelligence. It is a function of human intelligence only as a consequence of how it developed. One of the hallmarks of our advancement since that time has been our efforts to reduce the impact of that capriciousness in matters of importance.

So why should a supposedly advanced or ultimate intelligence be dominated by such a flaw?

It is not capriciousness. It is a decision that is taken. We are not privy to the logic behind the decision process.

 

[PartSkeptic]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer

Basically: Prayer had no effect on the health of those being prayed for.
In some studies, it may be that those people who KNEW they were being prayed for actually did worse.

Thanks for the link. I find these studies to be problematic. First, they are tests, and God (if he exists) would know it and refuse to take part. Second, one does not have a comparative scenario that says the person would have done much worse. And if God has permitted the person to get sick in the first place, why would he just reverse it because so many are praying?

My experience is that interventions due to prayer are very difficult to correlate. Some people have improvements which they attribute to their personal prayers, and their faith in God.

I think that the cause and effect principle acts in a generalized way. Be good and give thanks to God, and God makes life a little smoother. Ask for help but help yourself. One might find the answers come a little easier and at the right time.

I also think that people find that praying is a positive act. Many do not feel so helpless, and have the mental strength to carry on in the face of adversity.

 

[ComfySlippers]

...
I find these studies to be problematic. First, they are tests, and God (if he exists) would know it and refuse to take part.
...

Conveniently convenient, of course.

 

[Andy_Ross]

First, they are tests, and God (if he exists) would know it and refuse to take part.

What a giveaway!

 

[abaddon]

Thanks for the link. I find these studies to be problematic. First, they are tests, and God (if he exists) would know it and refuse to take part. Second, one does not have a comparative scenario that says the person would have done much worse. And if God has permitted the person to get sick in the first place, why would he just reverse it because so many are praying?

My experience is that interventions due to prayer are very difficult to correlate. Some people have improvements which they attribute to their personal prayers, and their faith in God.

I think that the cause and effect principle acts in a generalized way. Be good and give thanks to God, and God makes life a little smoother. Ask for help but help yourself. One might find the answers come a little easier and at the right time.

I also think that people find that praying is a positive act. Many do not feel so helpless, and have the mental strength to carry on in the face of adversity.

More claims to knowledge ex nihilo.

How do you know "god" would refuse to take part?

How do you know what "god" would do when it comes to inflicting and curing illness?

What kind of "god" would inflict illness anyway?

Why do you believe such a correlation between prayer and divine intervention might be difficult to correlate?

Give thanks to "god" for his scurrilous behaviour? For inflicting disease on the innocent and refusing to take it away? For hiding? I think not.

What evidence do you have, beyond self deceit by those offering prayers that the act of praying "makes life a little smoother"?

Ask "god" for help but do it yourself anyway? Have you any idea how inane that sounds?

One might find the answers come a little easier and at the right time? One might not. Sounds like random chance to me. How would you propose we distinguish between the two?

Prayer is not a positive act. Voluntary slavery is still slavery.

 

[Andy_Ross]

What kind of "god" would inflict illness anyway?

The same one that saves a random person from the air crash that kills 200 other people?

 

[jimbob]

The same one that saves a random person from the air crash that kills 200 other people?

From the point of view of a believer, I think ancient history is worse. If salvation can only come through the one true religion, it seems a bit harsh on everyone before then or those in areas where missionaries haven't been.

If someone hasn't had a chance to reject the TrueFaith^TM then it seems rather unfair to subject them to eternal damnation for something completely out of their control.

Killing innocent people and letting god sort it out is less harsh by those lights.

 

[Pup]

Thanks for the link. I find these studies to be problematic. First, they are tests, and God (if he exists) would know it and refuse to take part.

In addition to what others have said, isn't it a test every time a sufferer prays for relief? My doctor prescribed a new nerve pain medicine last week that he wants me to try and see if it works, because it does on some of his patients but not others. I'm testing it, same as if I prayed hoping to get relief. It's a sample of one, but I'll be able to know if it works for me, same as I'd know whether prayer helped me. The treatment is being tested.

Second, one does not have a comparative scenario that says the person would have done much worse.

Yes one does. There were control groups.

And if God has permitted the person to get sick in the first place, why would he just reverse it because so many are praying?

Then why do people bother with prayer for the sick? It's a big thing among theists.

I also think that people find that praying is a positive act. Many do not feel so helpless, and have the mental strength to carry on in the face of adversity.

There's the answer. But it's like any placebo, if the patient doesn't believe it works, it doesn't give the benefits.

 

[ComfySlippers]

...And if God has permitted the person to get sick in the first place, why would he just reverse it because so many are praying?
...

?!?!
That's really grasping for straws.
Quite insulting actually.

 

[MikeG]

?!?!
That's really grasping for straws.
Quite insulting actually.

Well, presumably the junior god who caused the person to be sick in the first place can just blame it on the senior god who created the junior god. Therefore junior god remains unblemished. Simples.

 

[Desert Fox]

The same one that saves a random person from the air crash that kills 200 other people?

I consider it far better that $%#! just happens.
Easier I think ultimately to deal with.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

I consider it far better that $%#! just happens.
Easier I think ultimately to deal with.

When our kind and benevolent God killed my puppy with Parvovirus a couple years ago I really wanted to believe in Him so I could have a focus for my anger, but I just couldn't. I tried to believe but I just couldn't. It's too ridiculous to believe even for a moment once you've pulled your head all the way out of the sack of lies.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Many of you forget that I am not talking about a Christian God. My God is good, and is capable of miracles (very rare). It kind of ends there. I think that an Ultimate Intelligence has created the universe in its mind. And created God.

Death and disease are no less immoral than if it happened on a soap opera. God lets the drama play out for the most part. And lets the laws of physics apply most of the time.

But if God exists, and many people believe he does, then despite differences in what they believe, God has a purpose. Most believe that purpose is to guide, not dictate, the direction that mankind takes.

It is my impression that those who pray regularly and conduct their lives according to the moral codes in religion have less "problems" in their lives. Not all religions are equal in moral codes or teachings. You are free to reject my opinion.

If one wants only the laws of physics and repeatability and testability to apply, then it is frustrating to have the fallback of "God decides", and "God wishes to remain hidden".

 

[PartSkeptic]

I consider it far better that $%#! just happens.
Easier I think ultimately to deal with.

I used to think that. And my life was a roller coaster. Not just $%#!, but major $%#!.

But since my decision to choose to believe that the probability that God exists is much better than the probability God does not exist, my life has been quite rewarding.

I do not have an alternate life-path with which to compare it. Only a before and after. And I accept that maybe I am making better decisions, and not getting involved with the "wrong" people.

 

[MikeG]

.........I think that an Ultimate Intelligence has created the universe in its mind. And created God.........

Senior god and junior god.

Who created the senior god?

 

[Desert Fox]

Many of you forget that I am not talking about a Christian God. My God is good, and is capable of miracles (very rare). It kind of ends there. I think that an Ultimate Intelligence has created the universe in its mind. And created God.

I am assuming that you are suggesting that you have been the recipient of those miracles? Assuming that, why are you worthy and not a child starving in Sub-Saharan Africa?

 

[welshdean]

Thanks for the link. I find these studies to be problematic. First, they are tests, and God (if he exists) would know it and refuse to take part. Second, one does not have a comparative scenario that says the person would have done much worse. And if God has permitted the person to get sick in the first place, why would he just reverse it because so many are praying?
My experience is that interventions due to prayer are very difficult to correlate. Some people have improvements which they attribute to their personal prayers, and their faith in God.

I think that the cause and effect principle acts in a generalized way. Be good and give thanks to God, and God makes life a little smoother. Ask for help but help yourself. One might find the answers come a little easier and at the right time.

I also think that people find that praying is a positive act. Many do not feel so helpless, and have the mental strength to carry on in the face of adversity.

Have you never heard of the Grotto of Massabielle in Lourdes?

 

[Pup]

It is my impression that those who pray regularly and conduct their lives according to the moral codes in religion have less "problems" in their lives. Not all religions are equal in moral codes or teachings. You are free to reject my opinion.

This actually just came up yesterday on one of the cancer groups I'm on. People talked about having faith, praying over their medicine, praising God, etc. I noted that I didn't have faith, only expected medicine to do what clinical trials indicated on average with a small chance I'd be in the top or bottom percentages due to good or bad luck, didn't pray about it obviously, and after two years was doing about as well as most. (We all have the exact same type of cancer.)

Apparently if I'd put in all that effort and worry about keeping faith, praying, etc. it would have been unnecessary, and the medicine alone was doing the job. Which fits with https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer

 

[Rincewind]

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

So - if you pray, and believe that you will receive whatever you prayed for, you'll get it.

So when the Pope prays for peace and peace doesn't happen, it's his fault because he didn't believe?