Proof of Immortality III

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Dave,
- I now think that my problem with Rainier is that the given is unclear. If we start with the singularity before the big bang, the likelihood of Mt Rainier's exact shape is virtually zero. If we start with the natural laws of science governing geology, the likelihood of Mt Rainier's exact shape is virtually one.
- If that doesn't make sense to you (and, I suspect that it won't), I'll try to explain. If it does make sense to you -- I just claimed that you're using the wrong given. And, I'll try to explain my claim.

...
The "given" should be the model we're testing. The "given" for Mount Rainier under the scientific model for the existence of mountains is the natural laws of science describing geology. The "given" for a human self under OOFLam is the natural laws of science describing biology, including human reproduction and development.
Dave,
- For the moment, this is where I think we diverge.
- My claim is that given the natural laws of science, the likelihood of the exact shape of Mt Rainier is virtually one. But also given the natural laws of science, and the consequent OOFLam, the likelihood of my self is still virtually zero.
- In my opinion, this is how ME and Mt Rainier are different.
- If what I'm claiming is clear, I'll try to explain why I claim it.
 
Dave,
- For the moment, this is where I think we diverge.
- My claim is that given the natural laws of science, the likelihood of the exact shape of Mt Rainier is virtually one. But also given the natural laws of science, and the consequent OOFLam, the likelihood of my self is still virtually zero.

Why?
 
Dave,
- For the moment, this is where I think we diverge. - My claim is that given the natural laws of science, the likelihood of the exact shape of Mt Rainier is virtually one. But also given the natural laws of science, and the consequent OOFLam, the likelihood of my self is still virtually zero.- In my opinion, this is how ME and Mt Rainier are different.
- If what I'm claiming is clear, I'll try to explain why I claim it.

Dave,
- Cause the natural laws of science have no clue as to why the particular 'who' emerges. Even if we were to reproduce all my physical characteristics, we wouldn't reproduce ME.
 
Dave,
- Cause the natural laws of science have no clue as to why the particular 'who' emerges.

So we're just going to dismiss the whole field of neurology, even though it's part of the given of OOFLam?

Even if we were to reproduce all my physical characteristics, we wouldn't reproduce ME.

You would get an exact copy of you just like you would get an exact copy of all your physical characteristics. You would get an exact copy of you because you would get an exact copy of all your physical characteristics. Remember, under OOFLam your physical characteristics are what make up you.
 
So we're just going to dismiss the whole field of neurology, even though it's part of the given of OOFLam?



You would get an exact copy of you just like you would get an exact copy of all your physical characteristics. You would get an exact copy of you because you would get an exact copy of all your physical characteristics. Remember, under OOFLam your physical characteristics are what make up you.
Dave,
- But, I think that you accept that this copy of you would be identical with you, but it wouldn't be 'YOU.'
 
I now think that my problem with Rainier is that the given is unclear.

Your problem with the Mt. Ranier analogy is that you keep trying to muddy up the given so that it looks like a false analogy, which it is not. The given is the same in both cases, which is why the analogy works. The given is that starting from predictable first principles and applying complex natural law (which, in both cases, embodies strong aspects of nonlinear behavior) does not allow you to predict the outcome to any useful degree.

If we start with the singularity before the big bang, the likelihood of Mt Rainier's exact shape is virtually zero.

But that's not where you start your "I'm a special snowflake" line of reasoning. You presume the existence and stability of certain physical laws. You note that even with those laws in such a stable place that probability can take hold upon them, there is still enough nonlinearity and unpredictability in the system to make any one predetermined outcome virtually impossible.

If we start with the natural laws of science governing geology, the likelihood of Mt Rainier's exact shape is virtually one.

That's equivalent in the analogy to saying if we start with the natural laws of science governing biology and human interaction, the likelihood of you-the-way-you-are is virtually one. And the appearance of Mt. Ranier is governed by more than just geology. Meteorology also matters. And if you think meteorology is not the embodiment of a complex nonlinear system, you're in for a shock.

You make a big point of the improbable sequence of events that produced this one You, any one of which events could have gone differently on a whim and produced an entirely different person with, presumably, an entirely different consciousness. That's the description of a complex nonlinear system, no different from geology or meteorology. This you say makes your present existence highly improbable, and this near impossibility is the driving figure in your pseudo-mathematics. But when the same mechanics of complex nonlinear systems is applied to a different problem, you want to sweep its complexity under the rug and simply declare that present existence virtually certain.

That's a blatant double standard. Your whimsical differentiation amounts to once more begging the question of you as a special snowflake despite all evidence and analogy to the contrary. You can't grasp tightly to complexity in one case, ignore it in another case, and proffer as your excuse the naked claim that the given is "unclear."

If that doesn't make sense to you (and, I suspect that it won't), I'll try to explain.

Your "explanations" are simply different expressions of the same double standard. This is your third or fourth try at foisting one of those, and none of them have worked so far. It isn't a matter of you being unable to express yourself or your critics' not grasping your point. We understand quite well what you're trying to show. You just can't grasp that it's special pleading.
 
Cause the natural laws of science have no clue as to why the particular 'who' emerges. Even if we were to reproduce all my physical characteristics, we wouldn't reproduce ME.

This is why the analogy works. You can't say complexity in your case makes the probability of You virtually zero and then say that complexity in natural forces makes the probability of the present Mt. Ranier virtually one.
 
Dave,
- But, I think that you accept that this copy of you would be identical with you, but it wouldn't be 'YOU.'

Right, because it's a copy. Just like a copy of Mount Rainier would be identical to Mount Rainier but wouldn't be the original Mount Rainier.
 
Right, because it's a copy. Just like a copy of Mount Rainier would be identical to Mount Rainier but wouldn't be the original Mount Rainier.
Dave,
- This seems to be where language gets in the way...
- This new person would not have your awareness -- you would not be looking out of two pairs of eyes. When I refer to your "who," or "YOU," I'm referring to your awareness. I'm saying that science doesn't have a clue as to WHO this emergent will be.
 
You're saying a lot of things, and most of them are nonsense. Your problem isn't "language" at all.
 
Cause the natural laws of science have no clue as to why the particular 'who' emerges.

They don't have to in order to conclude that all we can observe that defines you is connected inexorably to the existence of the organism. You're saying science has a "hole" that allows your belief because it fails to predict or account for an effect you cannot demonstrate.

Even if we were to reproduce all my physical characteristics, we wouldn't reproduce ME.

Asked and answered. You wish to simplify away much of what makes a human or a mountain the way they are. You want to limit the problem to initial conditions in one case, and allow intermediate effects in the other case. Both involve nonlinearity and complexity. But by selectively allowing and disallowing effects, you artificially manipulate the probability of a particular specimen arising so that it's certain in one case and improbable in the other.

In a more metaphysical sense, you are wallowing in the substantiality dilemma, which is is problem only in theology. Physics has no problem with the notion of consciousness being a process exhibited by certain biological entities, and that two identical but separate consciousnesses can be exhibited by two hypothetically identical physical organisms. You're trying to invoke the same ineffable essence claptrap that finally "resolved" the consubstantialem patris dilemma for the early church fathers, wherein they magically stated that the "substance" of God was something that was indivisible yet shared equally between the persons of God, and was fully embodied yet fully independent.

In like manner, you're simply trying to invent a new kind of essence that lets the evidence stand where it does without injuring your belief. This magical essence "somehow" interacts with the organism to produce consciousness, yet would exist in a way that persists across organisms, from one organism to another, or independent of the organism.

In other words -- as you have been for years -- you're simply trying to assume your conclusion as a premise and beg your critics to accept it.
 
Dave,
- This seems to be where language gets in the way...
- This new person would not have your awareness -- you would not be looking out of two pairs of eyes. When I refer to your "who," or "YOU," I'm referring to your awareness. I'm saying that science doesn't have a clue as to WHO this emergent will be.

That's because it's a process, not an entity.
 
This seems to be where language gets in the way...

Yes, please stop trying to win the argument by Olympic-level word games.

This new person would not have your awareness

Correct; it would have its own awareness.

When I refer to your "who," or "YOU," I'm referring to your awareness.

Changing what you call it doesn't change the fact that there is no evidence any observable aspect of such a thing persists beyond death or exists as anything other than a process exhibited by certain organisms.

I'm saying that science doesn't have a clue as to WHO this emergent will be.

Nonsense. The available evidence indicates that the emergent person would be a consciousness identical to but separate from the first. The notion that one consciousness must somehow share awareness with other, possibly identical, consciousnesses is a "requirement" you've invented out of thin air.

If you have any actual evidence to the contrary, now is the time to present it.
 
Dave,
- This seems to be where language gets in the way...
- This new person would not have your awareness -- you would not be looking out of two pairs of eyes.

Of course not. Under OOFLam, for a self to see out of a pair of eyes, it has to be physically connected to those eyes by way of the visual cortex and optic nerves. The new self - that is identical to the original - would see out of the pair of eyes it is physically connected to, just as the wind that blows over the peak of Mount Rainier would not blow over the peak of its copy at the same time.

When I refer to your "who," or "YOU," I'm referring to your awareness. I'm saying that science doesn't have a clue as to WHO this emergent will be.

And you are wrong. The who is the what.
 
Jabba, if you want to compare two probabilities, then please show the math for the odds that your brain will "receive" your consciousness transmission.
 
If the natural laws of geology were all it took to shape a mountain, Jabba, then every volcanic mountain should look exactly like Mount Rainer. But to quote Ben Goldacre, I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.
 
- For the moment, this is where I think we diverge.
- My claim is that given the natural laws of science, the likelihood of the exact shape of Mt Rainier is virtually one. But also given the natural laws of science, and the consequent OOFLam, the likelihood of my self is still virtually zero.
- In my opinion, this is how ME and Mt Rainier are different.
- If what I'm claiming is clear, I'll try to explain why I claim it.


What you are saying is clear: you are saying they are different because you say so. The reason you are saying this is also clear: you are saying it because the analogy is fatal to your argument, and you have no rational basis for rejecting it.
 
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Dave,
- This seems to be where language gets in the way...
- This new person would not have your awareness -- you would not be looking out of two pairs of eyes. When I refer to your "who," or "YOU," I'm referring to your awareness. I'm saying that science doesn't have a clue as to WHO this emergent will be.

Of course not. Under OOFLam, for a self to see out of a pair of eyes, it has to be physically connected to those eyes by way of the visual cortex and optic nerves. The new self - that is identical to the original - would see out of the pair of eyes it is physically connected to, just as the wind that blows over the peak of Mount Rainier would not blow over the peak of its copy at the same time.



And you are wrong. The who is the what.
Dave,
- Are you saying that I am not referring to your awareness?
 
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