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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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I suggest the film "Holocaust", a series of 6 documentaries from 2000 by historian Guido Knopp.

Anyone that after watching this series would question "Was there really a Jewish Holocaust?" would be in a similar position to whoever would try to question if Earth is actually round.
 
Kyoon said:
I suggest the film "Holocaust", a series of 6 documentaries from 2000 by historian Guido Knopp.

Anyone that after watching this series would question "Was there really a Jewish Holocaust?" would be in a similar position to whoever would try to question if Earth is actually round.
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That's because you skills at evaluating evidence are substandard. You wouldn't say such things if you weren't so easy to manipulate. You should really try to be more skeptical.
 
Evidence supporting # of Jews killed

My son says he doesn't believe there is evidence supporting the claim of 6 million Jews killed in WWII/holocaust. He says a lot were killed, but not that many.

Can someone point me towards evidence of how that figure was come by? I have looked but I can't seem to find how they determined how many people died.
 
RogueKitten said:
My son says he doesn't believe there is evidence supporting the claim of 6 million Jews killed in WWII/holocaust. He says a lot were killed, but not that many.

Can someone point me towards evidence of how that figure was come by? I have looked but I can't seem to find how they determined how many people died.
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Our resident history boffins will hear your call and offer their knowledge, no doubt.

They'll provide better links to peruse than I, but from the top of my head:

Learn about The Nuremberg Trials.
The Nazis had a nasty habit of recording everything, and filming many of their "successes".
This, along with testimonies from witnesses, survivors, a few of the more cooperative Nazis, and approx. 3000 tons of paper records enabled the estimate of six million to be reached.

The killing "machinery" of the Nazis was so well documented that estimating a figure wasn't difficult.(relatively speaking).

Maybe let your son watch the whole of the trials.
All of that was filmed also.

I wouldn't suggest making him watch the one-hour film made by the prosecutors which shows, in detail, the things the Nazis did.
It's very persuasive, as you can see from the stunned silence from the viewers in the Trials.

It's a fascinating piece of history, but one that I must leave to the experts to recommend further reading.

ETA: My only other piece of advice would be to slap his head, tell him to grow up and stop reading silly websites.

ETA2: Before I forget-
On this occasion, America actually did something right. The other nations wanted summary execution for the Nazis, but The USA wanted them to face a trial which would be seen to be honest and genuine.They wanted the world to see the evidence of the horrors. It was meticulously researched and made available to the public.

Robert H. Jackson, Chief U.S. Prosecutor, Extract from Opening Statement:
This Tribunal, while it is novel and experimental, is not the product of abstract speculations nor is it created to vindicate legalistic theories. This inquest represents the practical effort of four of the most mighty of nations, with the support of 17 more, to utilize international law to meet the greatest menace of our times-aggressive war. The common sense of mankind demands that law shall not stop with the punishment of petty crimes by little people. It must also reach men who possess themselves of great power and make deliberate and concerted use of it to set in motion evils which. leave no home in the world untouched. It is a cause of that magnitude that the United Nations will lay before Your Honors.
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Full Opening Statement
 
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RogueKitten said:
No joke on the last paragraph, the **** that comes out of his mouth!

Thanks slip, I'll send that link to his email.
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I added to my post while you were replying.
"No joke on the last paragraph, the **** that comes out of his mouth!" isn't referring to Robert H. Jackson, dear readers.
 
RogueKitten said:
My son says he doesn't believe there is evidence supporting the claim of 6 million Jews killed in WWII/holocaust. He says a lot were killed, but not that many.
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The six million figure is basically a rounded number, used for its rounded convenience. If I recall correctly, depending on the historical scholarly research source looked at, the estimated number killed ranges from a low of 4.8 million to a high of 5.7 million.

Then, of course, there were the many non-Jews who were killed, with Russian prisoners of war being a large component, along with plenty of other groups deemed undesirable by the Nazi regime.
 
Corsair 115 said:
The six million figure is basically a rounded number, used for its rounded convenience. If I recall correctly, depending on the historical scholarly research source looked at, the estimated number killed ranges from a low of 4.8 million to a high of 5.7 million.

Then, of course, there were the many non-Jews who were killed, with Russian prisoners of war being a large component, along with plenty of other groups deemed undesirable by the Nazi regime.
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If one "rounds" the range 4.8 to 5.7, the reasonable outcome would be five, not six. Six is outside the range. Can you explain why it has been rounded to six?
 
Corsair 115 said:
The six million figure is basically a rounded number, used for its rounded convenience. If I recall correctly, depending on the historical scholarly research source looked at, the estimated number killed ranges from a low of 4.8 million to a high of 5.7 million.

Then, of course, there were the many non-Jews who were killed, with Russian prisoners of war being a large component, along with plenty of other groups deemed undesirable by the Nazi regime.
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Wiki cites various authorities who have produced estimates of the death toll.
Early calculations range from about 4.2 to 4.5 million in The Final Solution (1953) by Gerald Reitlinger (arguing against higher Russian estimates), and 5.1 million from Raul Hilberg, to 5.95 million from Jacob Lestschinsky. Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust estimate 5.59–5.86 million. A study led by Wolfgang Benz of the Technical University of Berlin suggests 5.29 to 6.20 million.​
for the rest of this study see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust, section entitled "Victims"
 
Craig4 said:
That's because you skills at evaluating evidence are substandard. You wouldn't say such things if you weren't so easy to manipulate. You should really try to be more skeptical.
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I suggest you read the post you replied to again. I suspect you have misread it, unless you believe the Holocaust didn't happen.
 
RogueKitten said:
My son says he doesn't believe there is evidence supporting the claim of 6 million Jews killed in WWII/holocaust. He says a lot were killed, but not that many.

Can someone point me towards evidence of how that figure was come by? I have looked but I can't seem to find how they determined how many people died.
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More important.... with the political stances of your various relatives, can't someone here just adopt you?

"A lot but not so many" is the first sign of someone dabbling in Holocaust Denial, a very ugly faction of Conspiracy World.
 
ComfySlippers said:
I added to my post while you were replying.
"No joke on the last paragraph, the **** that comes out of his mouth!" isn't referring to Robert H. Jackson, dear readers.
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Thank you dear. Read and noted.

TheGoldcountry said:
If it is only 3 million, is it half as horrible?
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He had no answer when I asked that. I said, wouldn't one Jew murdered for his religion be pretty awful really?

Foolmewunz said:
More important.... with the political stances of your various relatives, can't someone here just adopt you?

"A lot but not so many" is the first sign of someone dabbling in Holocaust Denial, a very ugly faction of Conspiracy World.
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The light of my life is on these forums, he can take me anytime :D

Roger Ramjets said:
No, 3 million means the Holocaust is a lie!

Furthermore, there's no proof that Hitler personally killed any of them. So that's another lie.
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We went through that whole "Hitler didn't order the Jews killed" line already and I shut that down.

What really infuriates me about this is I have known a few people who were in the camps. I have heard first hand accounts. But they have either moved or passed away, and besides I can't like call some old person and be like, could you argue with my kid?

Also all of our Norwegian relatives who weren't already here (US) died in the Nazi invasion of Norway. It is like he completely disregards how we were personally effected by this (all our cousins are dead before we were even born). Not to mention I am Ashkenazi so they literally would have killed all of us!
 
RogueKitten said:
We went through that whole "Hitler didn't order the Jews killed" line already and I shut that down.
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Ugh, this is a murky one.

Have you considered trying to get him to read some scholarly works on the topics? For something brief, Browning's Ordinary Men. Then there's Kershaw's essay collection, "Hitler, The Germans and the Final Solution", and Browning's more-or-less definitive The Origins of the Final Solution.
 
TubbaBlubba said:
Ugh, this is a murky one.

Have you considered trying to get him to read some scholarly works on the topics? For something brief, Browning's Ordinary Men. Then there's Kershaw's essay collection, "Hitler, The Germans and the Final Solution", and Browning's more-or-less definitive The Origins of the Final Solution.
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I will see if I can find those. Thank you!
 
I'd recommend Robert Jay Lifton's "The Nazi Doctors". He goes into excruciating detail of the selection process from the point of view of the doctors and medical staff carrying it out.
 
zooterkin said:
I suggest you read the post you replied to again. I suspect you have misread it, unless you believe the Holocaust didn't happen.
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:)

Guido Knopp is the "house historian" of ZDF, the second German public TV channel, and has made a string of documentaries, and accompanying books, on the Third Reich. I haven't seen the one Kyoon mentioned, but I have seen and read his series "Hitler's helpers" which consisted of bios of several top Nazis.
 
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