RE: clintonemails.com: Who is Eric Hoteham?

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Why have no other Secretaries of State been held to this standard?
"Everybody does it" doesn't apply if everybody doesn't do it. Some other officials have used private email in addition to their official addresses, and have been sloppy about using which one when. Hillary is the only SecState that went to the trouble and expense of installing a private server in her basement and never even had a .gov address.

It's a double standard because Clinton is under constant attack by political enemies, every little error she says or does is amplified into this big 'she must be hiding something' accusation. It's wrong, it's tiring, and anyone looking at it carefully can see it no other relevant politician is being held to this same standard.

But in Hillary's world everybody is her enemy. As is often the case, what hurts her is not the crime (or the "mistake") but the desperate cover-up accompanied by ridiculous lies.

More commentary from a generally liberal paper:
The stonewalling creates a firm impression, well captured by CNN’s Wolf Blitzer this week when he interviewed Clinton’s spokesman, Brian Fallon: “If she didn’t do anything wrong and she had nothing to hide, why didn’t she cooperate with the inspector general?”

There is no good answer to this. And that’s why the IG report was just another of Clinton’s self-inflicted wounds, stretching back a quarter century, caused by her tendency toward secrecy and debilitating caution.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...2d4f3a-2402-11e6-aa84-42391ba52c91_story.html
 
"Everybody does it" is a straw man argument.

Why is no one else held to this standard and how would they look if they were is the argument. It's not that everyone does it, it's that no one else is attacked like this for doing it. DOUBLE STANDARD

How can it be a big deal if no one cares about any other Secretaries of State using private email and preserving records? It must not really be a big deal.
 
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This thread is such a terrific, really terrific example of why tu quoque arguments are so terrible. It is not just that they are fallacious and actually provide no defense to the actual argument. It is not just that they are couterproductive because in fact concede the merit of the other side's proposition (here "everybody" does it), but they are so simple to rebut: Hillary is being subjected to a double standard! The solution does not provide Hillary an out, the solution is to also hold those other people to the same standard as Hillary.
 
Repeating lies that have been debunked. Asking disingenuous questions that have already been addressed. ALL CAPS, BOOM HEADSHOT STYLE!!! Spin levels approaching a category F5 twister.

I've gone ahead and bought a commercial popcorn maker to park in this thread. We're going to need it
 
By the way, hopefully to put a merciful end to this tu quoque:



From the IG's report:

In response, Secretary Albright’s representative advised that Secretary Albright did not use a Department or personal email account during her tenure, and Secretary Rice’s representative advised that Secretary Rice did not use a personal email account to conduct official business
 
Error rate. You think there should be zeros errors sorting through thousands and thousands of emails?

Yes. If anything, she should have erred on the side of caution, and the errors should haven been to include personal emails.

How did she miss it ?

"Uhm, sorry, I thought this email about setting up dept of state emails to my staff was not work related"

:rolleyes:

That there was no evidence her server was hacked has been reported repeatedly.

Security Logs of Hillary Clinton’s Email Server Are Said to Show No Evidence of Hacking

There is no public FBI report that says it wasn't, either.

Don't you think being accurate in what you post matters ?

Maybe you think the issue of imperfect transparency is straw, but plenty of other people are focused on some Clinton conspiracy to thwart FOIA laws.

I don't think it's a "conspiracy", but clearly it was a conscious decision to take actions to keep her email private.

A series of decisions that absolutely make her look dishonest and incompetent.

Again, I have been defending the legality of what she did - but it looks impressively stupid right now.

Especially the quote from the post Bob001 pointed out:

The stonewalling creates a firm impression, well captured by CNN’s Wolf Blitzer this week when he interviewed Clinton’s spokesman, Brian Fallon: “If she didn’t do anything wrong and she had nothing to hide, why didn’t she cooperate with the inspector general?”

As for appearance, that's the point it wouldn't matter what she does, Clinton political enemies twist any and everything into the 'dishonest and incompetent' narrative. The same behaviors of anyone else is ignored, insignificant.

From the report:
Why have no other Secretaries of State been held to this standard?

It's a double standard because Clinton is under constant attack by political enemies, every little error she says or does is amplified into this big 'she must be hiding something' accusation. It's wrong, it's tiring, and anyone looking at it carefully can see it no other relevant politician is being held to this same standard.

Unfortunately I have to agree with 16.5

We are talking about what Clinton did. Other comparisons are less relevant, and none of them go to the same lengths to apparently keep emails "private" as Clinton did.
 
Repeating lies that have been debunked. Asking disingenuous questions that have already been addressed. ALL CAPS, BOOM HEADSHOT STYLE!!! Spin levels approaching a category F5 twister.

I've gone ahead and bought a commercial popcorn maker to park in this thread. We're going to need it

Don't be so rough on the people with HDS. They are trying.
 
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Clinton staff went through more than 30K emails and divided them into personal and work related. Did they miss these or actually try to hide them? If they were sent to .gov addresses, why try to conceal them?

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This is one of the most troubling aspects of this mess to me. Clinton might play a little fast and loose with the truth. But the part that worries me the most about this scandal is the incompetence at each step.

The risks associated with the private email server completely dwarfed the gains possible for Clinton. Why couldn't she see this? How is it that she didn't have any advisers that would confront her about this? Does she surround herself with sycophants?

The mixing of private and business emails was just amazingly inept. I doubt she would have found a lawyer in the entire US that would not have advised her not to do that.

The handling of this scandal has set a new record for the most inept way to handle a scandal. Turning over the hard disks to her lawyer with potentially classified data on them. Really? What planet is her lawyer from? He seems to have led her in to the path of disaster in more than one way. Deleting the emails in a way that they could be recovered? Really. So it looks like you're hiding something but then you're not really. How is that smart? And the ridiculous spectacle of her being forced to separate private and business emails two years after she was supposed to have archived the emails?

The sorting process was legal. But my god it looked terrible. Talk about self dealing run amok. And the result of the ridiculous sorting scheme she put in place was that she was going to be responsible for every email incorrectly identified as personal. And the childish failure to turn over electronic copies of the emails? What did she hope to prove with that nonsense except that she could waste the time of State Department workers doing a task that was only required because of her childish act.

Here's a thought: When she was caught she didn't need to wait to be forced into the embarrassing process. When it was obvious that her scheme had failed to hide her emails she needed to get in front of this and get all the bad stuff out at once. Instead the steady drip drip of facts has kept this story alive for months.
 
I doubt she would have found a lawyer in the entire US that would not have advised her not to do that.

I will admit this is speculation on my part but my theory is that she did indeed get an opinion from a lawyer, who gave her exactly what she asked for: an opinion that her maintenance of her correspondence shielded them from Federal records laws, and FOIA based on Kissinger v. Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, 445 U.S. 136 (1980), and David Kendall was the lawyer.
 
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The risks associated with the private email server completely dwarfed the gains possible for Clinton. Why couldn't she see this? How is it that she didn't have any advisers that would confront her about this? Does she surround herself with sycophants?
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The answer to that question is pretty clearly yes. This is a woman who hasn't driven a car since 1992. She's had Secret Service protection continuously for 24 years. Her closest advisers are a few people she's known for decades. Huma Abedin started working for her as a college intern in 1996. There are numerous reports that she's a temperamental boss. It's extremely unlikely that anyone around her would ever dare to say "Hey, lady, you can't do that!"
 
This is one of the most troubling aspects of this mess to me. Clinton might play a little fast and loose with the truth. But the part that worries me the most about this scandal is the incompetence at each step.

Not incompetence. Arrogance. And the confidence that either the scandal wouldn't explode, or that she could contain it if it did.

The risks associated with the private email server completely dwarfed the gains possible for Clinton. Why couldn't she see this? How is it that she didn't have any advisers that would confront her about this? Does she surround herself with sycophants?

I think on her part, it was a calculated risk. Her advisers either agreed with her cost-benefit analysis, or were cowed by her. Either way, that doesn't inspire confidence in her advisers.

The mixing of private and business emails was just amazingly inept. I doubt she would have found a lawyer in the entire US that would not have advised her not to do that.

She's a lawyer. Many of her advisers are lawyers. Her husband used to be one, although technically he's been disbarred.

The handling of this scandal has set a new record for the most inept way to handle a scandal. Turning over the hard disks to her lawyer with potentially classified data on them. Really? What planet is her lawyer from? He seems to have led her in to the path of disaster in more than one way. Deleting the emails in a way that they could be recovered? Really. So it looks like you're hiding something but then you're not really. How is that smart? And the ridiculous spectacle of her being forced to separate private and business emails two years after she was supposed to have archived the emails?

She obviously didn't do enough contingency planning for the event that her use of a private server was uncovered. That is an example of incompetence, although hardly an exceptional case.

The sorting process was legal. But my god it looked terrible. Talk about self dealing run amok. And the result of the ridiculous sorting scheme she put in place was that she was going to be responsible for every email incorrectly identified as personal. And the childish failure to turn over electronic copies of the emails? What did she hope to prove with that nonsense except that she could waste the time of State Department workers doing a task that was only required because of her childish act.

The sorting process was probably not legal given that the people doing it almost certainly did not have security clearances, and she almost certainly knew that classified material existed on her server.

As for her "childish" decision to turn over only paper copies? Well, there was a method behind the madness. She didn't want the State Department to have the electronic header files, which might have contained information which she didn't want to share.

Here's a thought: When she was caught she didn't need to wait to be forced into the embarrassing process. When it was obvious that her scheme had failed to hide her emails she needed to get in front of this and get all the bad stuff out at once. Instead the steady drip drip of facts has kept this story alive for months.

Her strategy has worked for her. She is a hair's breadth away from being the presumptive nominee of her party, despite the fact that this was mostly uncovered before the practical deadline for her potential (and actual) primary opponents to announce their candidacies. It hasn't been so good for her party, though, but since when has that ever taken priority over her own interests?
 
The risks associated with the private email server completely dwarfed the gains possible for Clinton.

To me, this is the most horrible possibility of all: the contents of the emails she lost are more of a liability than the present scandal.

I'd much, much, rather believe that she's merely incompetent at risk assessment.
 
@davefoc and TheL8Elvis: I don't blame her for wanting some control over her communications given the GOP history of fine-toothed combing everything she has said, written or done as an adult.

As for how was this email or that one missed, you'd have to look at the emails on the whole. Was it the only one with similar information? Were only suspicious one's missed or are those the ones reported? Or are there other similar messages that weren't withheld? It was her staff sorting through the emails, who knows what was a simple error and what was purposeful concealment based on these news reports which are not showing the entire picture.

It used to be in times past that the POTUS Cabinet was off limits to the press so they could supposedly be free to offer unfiltered advice. Look at all the stuff buried in the 'cables' released by Wikileaks. Look at the things Snowden revealed.

I'm not saying Clinton is 100% transparent. Neither is Obama as transparent as I wished he would be. This is the nature of our federal government. Should it change? Yes! But does it make Clinton evil or corrupt or unsuited to be POTUS? No!
If we were applying the same standard to Clinton as we apply to everyone else running for POTUS this would be a one day news story, maybe 2. It is not the crime of the century it is being portrayed as.
 
To me, this is the most horrible possibility of all: the contents of the emails she lost are more of a liability than the present scandal.

I'd much, much, rather believe that she's merely incompetent at risk assessment.

If she was conducting any Clinton Foundation business while she was SecState, especially if it involved foreign contributions or paid speeches by her husband, it could look very bad even if it's not illegal.
 
Your analogy is a fail. Try this:

It's like saying, "given that speeding is a widespread practice, there's no reason the police should send me to jail for a speeding violation that no one else would go to jail for."
Others have been punished for violating the Federal Records Act. Petraeus for one.

As for Clinton should not be POTUS, that's ludicrous.
If it's ludicrous to say that a person who violated Federal law should not be President, then we live in ludicrous times.

Not to mention, you would instead have no trouble with a con man who has a serious personality disorder that prevents him from behaving reasonably with people who fail to support him.
Where did I say that?
 
If she was conducting any Clinton Foundation business while she was SecState, especially if it involved foreign contributions or paid speeches by her husband, it could look very bad even if it's not illegal.

Right, and that's the case even if there were no conflict of interest.
 
Others have been punished for violating the Federal Records Act. Petraeus for one.
He was convicted of giving confidential information to his girlfriend for a book.

Completely different thing. Got anyone else?:rolleyes:

If it's ludicrous to say that a person who violated Federal law should not be President, then we live in ludicrous times.
A technical violation at best.


Where did I say that?
??? You didn't. I'm the one saying it. I'll say it again:

Your choice then is Trump who is a con man with a personality disorder who has run flimflam scams. Good luck with that.
 
I suspect some people don't have the honesty to admit they want Trump so instead hope to achieve the same goal by pushing down HRC.

Probably 90% of the Republicans/Conservatives on this forum.
 
Your choice then is Trump who is a con man with a personality disorder who has run flimflam scams.

This pretty closely mirrors the sentiment in a Washington Post editorial:

Washington Post said:
She reminds people that the only other choice they have in this election is Donald Trump: Clinton's best message in the race is: "I am the person not named 'Donald Trump' running for president." Clinton references the "full threat posed by Donald Trump" in her interview with Todd for this very reason. Hey, you might not like or trust me, she is saying, but that's almost besides the point. I am running against someone who could pose a very real danger to this country. Do you want that?

This is a binary choice election. (Sorry Gary Johnson!) There are only two people who have a legitimate chance of being the 45th president of the United States.
Link

For some reason, Johnson warrants a mention but not an alternate Democratic candidate. This rhetoric assumes the nomination is done and the ballots are printed. It is completely within her rights to take the nomination and run into the general, but it is wrong to act like that is not a choice she is making. This argument just reminds us that Hillary would never give up her nomination, no matter the cost to the country.

I'm with her! Because she left me no other choice.


Clinton said:
I hope and expect voters to look at the full picture of everything I've done and stand for. And the full threat posed by Donald Trump. If they do, I have faith in the American people that they will make the right choice.

Is anyone else starting to get a serious Kang Vs. Kodos vibe? If Trump makes a comment about Never Trumps throwing their vote away, this might make the ultimate mashup of all time.

Youtube Clip of Kang Vs. Kodos
 
I suspect some people don't have the honesty to admit they want Trump so instead hope to achieve the same goal by pushing down HRC.

Probably 90% of the Republicans/Conservatives on this forum.

I suspect that some Hillary Clinton supporters are Morlocks who traveled back in time and are supporting Clinton in order to expand the welfare state of the largest country with high obesity rates in order to procure a nearly inexhaustible food supply.

Probably 50% of the people preemptively poisoning the well on this page!
 
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