The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

[blue triangle]

If I understand correctly, you went from atheism to theism. So of course you believe your new way is so much superior to the way you used to think. Otherwise you wouldn't have changed.

I hear that same sort of egotism from lots of people who move on to something new.

As I said, it's a argument atheists can't stand to hear!

They assume that what's true for them must be true for everybody, and that everyone who hasn't experienced the wonders they have, is living a deprived life, just like they used to before they saw the light.

Many atheists would characterise the lives of biblical literalists as deprived.

Yet it seems to me that people are able to find wonder in so many individual ways. What works for one might do nothing for another, but each can find their own meaning.

You can tell me that you'll always, by definition, have a better sense of meaning in life than me, but to me, that seems more like an inability to value others' outlook, than an objective assessment.

Its neither completely objective nor completely subjective. What I can state with certainty is that however much meaning you find in life as an atheist, there is much more around the corner, if you'd only care to look. We have everything you have and more.

 

[Delvo]

It seems to bother many atheists I've spoken to, who congratulate themselves for having given up traditional Christian belief and imagine that they are now seeing clearly and thinking rationally.

Your own arguments for how much better being a theist is demonstrate that the atheists are in fact being more rational:

...discarding atheism, for a larger, richer and much more meaningful worldview... rejecting scientific materialism and embracing spirituality... because the old worldview became too small... As for having a sense that life has meaning, atheists are hampered there. They may have some sense of it, but there is more to be had, much more.

There is not a speck of anything even vaguely like rationality there, not even the slightest attempt at even a shallow imitation of rational thought. It's nothing but feelingism, loudly & proudly declaring for all to hear how completely free of rationality it is.

It's like you're talking about a group of people over there who are eating apples, while you're in the group that's eating garglic bread, and your description of the situation is that those silly apple-eating fools over there "imagine" that their apples are applier than your garlic bread, while boasting that your garlic bread is more more garlicky and bready than their apples. Well, yes, of course: the fact that the apples are apples and your garlic bread isn't apples does indeed make the apples applier than your garlic bread, which you yourself just described as thoroughly un-apple-like! But then you call the apple-eaters' awareness of exactly the same distinction that you just described merely their "imagination".

 

[Pup]

Its neither completely objective nor completely subjective. What I can state with certainty is that however much meaning you find in life as an atheist, there is much more around the corner, if you'd only care to look. We have everything you have and more.

That's exactly what I mean. People with children say they have everything I have, plus the miracle of children. People who take LSD say they have everything I have, plus drug experiences/insight.

What they don't accept is that I can say the same thing. A theist will never know the pride and satisfaction and amazement of putting social conditioning aside and truly trying to learn about the real world. Someone not into history will never know what it's like to be certain that research is one's calling and spend a lifetime uncovering facts.

It sounds lame, I'm sure, but the glories of theism sound lame to me. People are different. Religion is attractive to many, whether it's radical Islam or the Salvation Army. I don't begrudge them their happiness, if they don't take away others' happiness.

I've never had a moment's doubt about what the purpose of my life was, and have pursued it ceaselessly and have felt rewarded, but that's just me. I'd be silly to say that if only everyone spent a week at the Library of Richmond, they'd find true happiness and know they were fulfilling life's purpose, even though that's how it feels to me.

 

[MikeG]

You've misunderstood what i was doing. I was simply turning your own argument on its head to show how ridiculous it is.

You utterly failed (and I didn't misunderstand).

And the burden of proof argument can be turned on its head too. Whoever is making a point has the burden of proof, not theists, so it's time to give it up.

Nope. It's you lot who claim there is something out there which is outside the laws of physics. I'm making no claim at all.

 

[blue triangle]

Your own arguments for how much better being a theist is demonstrate that the atheists are in fact being more rational:

There is not a speck of anything even vaguely like rationality there, not even the slightest attempt at even a shallow imitation of rational thought. It's nothing but feelingism, loudly & proudly declaring for all to hear how completely free of rationality it is.

This is just a general swipe at my argument. Unless you can delve into specifics, it's not worth answering, except to say that it's far more than 'feelingism', another vague concept.

It's like you're talking about a group of people over there who are eating apples, while you're in the group that's eating garglic bread, and your description of the situation is that those silly apple-eating fools over there "imagine" that their apples are applier than your garlic bread, while boasting that your garlic bread is more more garlicky and bready than their apples. Well, yes, of course: the fact that the apples are apples and your garlic bread isn't apples does indeed make the apples applier than your garlic bread, which you yourself just described as thoroughly un-apple-like! But then you call the apple-eaters' awareness of exactly the same distinction that you just described merely their "imagination".

What a load of crap. We're talking about reality here and how we grow into new understandings. The problem with your argument, and indeed your view of things, is that you have an eyepatch on and can only see in 2D, when there's stereoscopic vision available.

 

[blue triangle]

You utterly failed (and I didn't misunderstand).

Nope. It's you lot who claim there is something out there which is outside the laws of physics. I'm making no claim at all.

I've noticed that when atheists run out of steam they often just make the same kind of baseless assertions they accuse theists of making.

You are making a claim. You're claiming there is no meaning to life, no purpose, no God, no afterlife, no mind other than an epiphenomenon of brain functioning, no psi, no NDEs, no miracles, no inspiration, etc, etc. I hesitate to call it them positive claims, because they are so bleak, but they are, because they relate to a worldview, a philosophy, which is a positive claim and therefore has as much of a burden of proof on it as any other claim. They reduce man to a machine and life to a meaningless accident. It reeks of nihilism and despair. Interestingly, people who have done exorcisms say that demons espouse the same nihilistic philosophy.

 

[logger]

There is no God to reign in the excesses of its followers. We have an unstable ever changing guiding force. That is not good for humanity. It is criminal how much time and resource that has been devoted to these destructive fantasies. The sooner the religious demote their imaginary friends to their proper place, behind thier family, friends, compatriots, fellow nationals and other humans the better it will be.

YMMV.

Lol

The Bible talks much about end times, so you will get your wish. We've already had a taste of what the Godless can create, I wish you luck.

 

[Desert Fox]

Lol

The Bible talks much about end times, so you will get your wish. We've already had a taste of what the Godless can create, I wish you luck.

People have been predicting the end times since the damn people wrote the book. It has yet to occur.

 

[logger]

Life has no value according to your beloved bible.

Funny that.

Life has no value according to many of it's followers, only the next life has value.

Funny that too.

How can the next life have value and not this life? Tell us again how much you know about Christianity.

 

[logger]

Seems there were a lot of if-then statements involved in that.

But what I'm curious about... What if that defense fell through, and an external meaning of life couldn't be proven? Would you then no longer have a personal sensation that your life has meaning?

It's a puzzle to me, because I don't need evidence to have that sensation. It reminds me of theists who say morals must come from a god, so if they stopped believing in a god the implication is that they would rape and murder without guilt. If you stopped believing, would you feel your life has no meaning?

Only for the unbeliever.

 

[Desert Fox]

How can the next life have value and not this life? Tell us again how much you know about Christianity.

I have spoken to plenty of Christians who speak about how, compared to the next life, this life has no value. From what I have seen, your position seems to be the minority one.

 

[logger]

People have been predicting the end times since the damn people wrote the book. It has yet to occur.

Yes, sounds like a great reason for you to ignore it.

 

[Desert Fox]

Yes, sounds like a great reason for you to ignore it.

When you have a track record of zero, yes. . . .

 

[logger]

I have spoken to plenty of Christians who speak about how, compared to the next life, this life has no value. From what I have seen, your position seems to be the minority one.

How could that be when we are judged on this life, you're probably misunderstanding them.

 

[Desert Fox]

How could that be when we are judged on this life, you're probably misunderstanding them.

As far as I have seen, no Christian has ever presented any evidence which has any real value that there is a god, let alone the one they claim to argue for. They argue however that suffering for the next life is worth it all in the end because they will live in paradise. This life is little more than a test. The problem is that, if this is the only life that we live, you are not enjoying the one life you have.

Note that I was a Christian at one time. I was a confirmed as a Lutheran. Today, I use one of the confirmation lessons as a lesson that god would be considered a child abuser.

 

[blue triangle]

That's exactly what I mean. People with children say they have everything I have, plus the miracle of children. People who take LSD say they have everything I have, plus drug experiences/insight.

Yes, children do enhance life and promote growth. Even entheogens can do that. But that merely argues my point.

What they don't accept is that I can say the same thing. A theist will never know the pride and satisfaction and amazement of putting social conditioning aside and truly trying to learn about the real world. Someone not into history will never know what it's like to be certain that research is one's calling and spend a lifetime uncovering facts.

Someone who has found his calling is indeed living life at a new level. That calling can be spiritual too. One can be called to become a minister of religion, a theologian. I'm talking here though about the larger worldview that comes from spiritual awareness. That is something else again. A fundamentalist Christian may have a calling to be a musician and find great fulfilment through it. His worldview is still rather limited though.

It sounds lame, I'm sure, but the glories of theism sound lame to me.

You've been staring at your straw man for so long you think it's the real thing. You're reacting to a caricature of religion, focusing on its worst aspects, either ignorant of or ignoring all that is best in it. Much of religion has been hijacked by fundamentalist movements and all kinds of distortions of scriptures, themselves barely understood and misread by most believers. It's easy to build straw men out of that lot, because most of it is straw, fit only to be burned. But within each religion, including Christianity, is a living beating esoteric heart, which gives life to the rest of the body, even though it is barely tolerated by the exoteric majority. Theology has its glories too, as does ministry, healing, fellowship, charity work and many other aspects of the life of the church.

People are different. Religion is attractive to many, whether it's radical Islam or the Salvation Army. I don't begrudge them their happiness, if they don't take away others' happiness.

That's a reasonable attitude.

I've never had a moment's doubt about what the purpose of my life was, and have pursued it ceaselessly and have felt rewarded, but that's just me. I'd be silly to say that if only everyone spent a week at the Library of Richmond, they'd find true happiness and know they were fulfilling life's purpose, even though that's how it feels to me.

I'm glad you seem to have found your purpose. But do you then say that life has no purpose? Because when you say things like 'I've never had a moment's doubt about what the purpose of my life was' you sound as if you are admitting that there is such as thing as purpose, which I equated in part with meaning.

 

[Pup]

I hesitate to call it them positive claims, because they are so bleak, but they are, because they relate to a worldview, a philosophy, which is a positive claim and therefore has as much of a burden of proof on it as any other claim. They reduce man to a machine and life to a meaningless accident. It reeks of nihilism and despair. Interestingly, people who have done exorcisms say that demons espouse the same nihilistic philosophy.

So how come I don't feel despair? You believe such thoughts would cause you to feel despair, and I won't disagree. But it seems such a literally self--centered view to judge how everyone would feel based on how you would feel.

Personally, I find it exciting, because it frees one from having to listen to tradition and instead one can explore wherever the evidence leads. I'm not in the hard sciences myself, but the freedom to follow evidence and challenge any accepted status quo, whether based on previous science or religion, is exciting enough just as a concept, and let the prevailing evidence win, till more comes along.

Religion, in some cases, deliberately takes that away and insists they have the unchanging answers, which one must believe or suffer. That's what I'd call depressing. But those believers don't think so, because a sense of stability is what they want. People are different.

 

[logger]

If I understand correctly, you went from atheism to theism. So of course you believe your new way is so much superior to the way you used to think. Otherwise you wouldn't have changed.

I hear that same sort of egotism from lots of people who move on to something new. They assume that what's true for them must be true for everybody, and that everyone who hasn't experienced the wonders they have, is living a deprived life, just like they used to before they saw the light.

Yet it seems to me that people are able to find wonder in so many individual ways. What works for one might do nothing for another, but each can find their own meaning.

You can tell me that you'll always, by definition, have a better sense of meaning in life than me, but to me, that seems more like an inability to value others' outlook, than an objective assessment.

Lol

BT bet you never dreamed someone would call you egotistical for trying to explain your well thought out position.

It's all kinds here.

 

[logger]

Note that I was a Christian at one time. I was a confirmed as a Lutheran. Today, I use one of the confirmation lessons as a lesson that god would be considered a child abuser.

Lol
I'm so happy for you.

 

[logger]

As far as I have seen, no Christian has ever presented any evidence which has any real value that there is a god, let alone the one they claim to argue for. They argue however that suffering for the next life is worth it all in the end because they will live in paradise. This life is little more than a test. The problem is that, if this is the only life that we live, you are not enjoying the one life you have.

Is this an admission you've misunderstood your Christian buddies?

The Bible says the evidence for the unbeliever is the creation.

Seriously though it wouldn't matter if God sat on your shoulder, you still wouldn't believe.