The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

[TheGoldcountry]

Well in all fairness it's followers really, really want that so they can continue feeling superior after death. Boy are they gonna be surprised!!!!!!!

No they won't.

 

[John Nowak]

Better yet. Can you use numerology to prove that Darth Vader is the chosen one, and the second coming of christ?

http://www.gematrix.org/?word=Darth+Vader

Apparently, in Jewish Gematria, "Darth Vader" = 983, the same as the phrase "Religious Mental Derangement" or "Christianity is a Lie." In English, the number's 606, which could probably be fun to work with.

"John Nowak" in English gematria returns 666, which I'm pretty sure we can't do anything with.

 

[ComfySlippers]

Abusive parents and partners will often manufacture rules where the child or spouse cannot help but transgress against those rules. Then when they transgress, the parent or partner will punish them severely.

 

[fuelair]

Thankyou!

Yes, it can be tricky going in these parts, and some of the locals think that sheer weight of numbers will topple your wagon. But I've long been in the habit of identifying those whose lives are so empty that their only joy is in trolling (poor creatures) and skipping past their posts, so I don't actually read very much of what's on the thread. It makes for much lighter travelling.

Well , you are perfectly free to not come by and annoy others - or to do so. It's not like we give a ******!!!!!!

 

[fuelair]

Plenty of people preaching the good news in 3rd world countries. The problem with skeptics is you want God to do it your way, he won't. Keep knocking and the door will be opened.

The problem with skeptics is you knock, then run off. I spent 6 long years chasing him and I wasn't about to give up. Now I'm blessed beyond anything I could imagine and that doesn't involve things of the world, well, maybe a few things.

I am appalled that you did that!!! Sounds like major harassment to me!!!!!

 

[ComfySlippers]

I am appalled that you did that!!! Sounds like major harassment to me!!!!!

Stalking.
I wouldn't be surprised if God eventually got a restraining order against him.

Not sure what the minimum distance would be.
I'm assuming God won't be metric yet as he's American.

 

[stanfr]

http://www.gematrix.org/?word=Darth+Vader

Apparently, in Jewish Gematria, "Darth Vader" = 983, the same as the phrase "Religious Mental Derangement" or "Christianity is a Lie." In English, the number's 606, which could probably be fun to work with.

"John Nowak" in English gematria returns 666, which I'm pretty sure we can't do anything with.

Interesting, my name is 666 as well...makes me wanna grab my guitar and write another death metal song...

 

[fuelair]

No they won't.

Do you really want to get into this? Of course they will - but they won't be around to know!!! Just dead. You are free to feel otherwise, but that counts for nothing in the end. And you are wasting your time trying to tell us otherwise... No logic, no proof, no sense!!!

 

[stanfr]

It is possible, log, that you are so deeply enmeshed in your superstiton that you do not realize how monstrously evil this makes your 'god' sound...

Not surprising, just monstrously evil.

I didn't read it that way, I read it that he was agreeing that this is was Art concluded, not what god wanted...but that is somewhat of a pointless distinction in context (although evidently not in logger's mind). Although, it does have biblical support--god hardening Pharaoh's heart so he could torture the Egyptians, for example.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Challenge accepted.
I shall now obtain a copy of The Kama Sutra and prove, by the magic of the numbers three, twelve and eight, that Jesus is not the only one who can perform miracles.

With, as I recall, much better illustrations...

 

[Slowvehicle]

I didn't read it that way, I read it that he was agreeing that this is was Art concluded, not what god wanted...but that is somewhat of a pointless distinction in context (although evidently not in logger's mind). Although, it does have biblical support--god hardening Pharaoh's heart so he could torture the Egyptians, for example.

...still monstrously evil, to create a person knowing what would bring them to "belief", and withholding that very thing so that the person would be bound for "the fire".

Good thing this 'god' is wholly fictitious.

 

[SusanB-M1]

#387 Argumemnon

Well said; I read #385 but thought I'd read on before responding, but I see I have no need to !

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Do you really want to get into this? Of course they will - but they won't be around to know!!! Just dead. You are free to feel otherwise, but that counts for nothing in the end. And you are wasting your time trying to tell us otherwise... No logic, no proof, no sense!!!

I think you misunderstood me. If you look at my quotes below you might see how I feel on the issue.

I agree. That's why I said "no they won't." As in, they won't be surprised because they won't be anywhere.

 

[Darat]

The first line is "God created the heavens and the earth." Light came later, and I agree it doesn't explain where the water came from.

The translation should be more like:

1:1 In the beginning of God's creating the skies and the earth
1:2 when the earth had been shapeless and formless, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and God's spirit was hovering on the face of the water

(My highlighting don't think they had flourescent highlighters back then - but I'm sure they were predicted somewhere in the text if you only know how to read the Bible "correctly" )

 

[blue triangle]

Why on Earth you feel it's okay, as an adult, to state publicly that you searched for six years to find a non-existent invisible man, is truly sad.

You're getting me mixed up with someone else. Not that there is anything embarrassing about spending six years searching for God. It's the most worthwhile thing you could do.

 

[Slowvehicle]

You're getting me mixed up with someone else. Not that there is anything embarrassing about spending six years searching for God. It's the most worthwhile thing you could do.

In your opinion...unsupported by the least skerrick of actual evidence.

 

[Belz...]

No. He a God that some know and others don't know.

So is Odin.

You are the one who is doing the imagining, imagination always rushing in to fill any vacuum in our knowledge.

What am I imagining, exactly? It's ironic that you talk about imagination filling the vaccuum of knowledge when religion is exactly that.

I may not be able to prove to you that God exists (evidence aside for now), but you cannot prove otherwise.

Irrelevant, since it's your claim, not mine. I'm perfectly happy the way things are now. I don't need to prove anything. I'm also not able to disprove UFOs and bigfoot, but again that isn't my claim.

And don't try to throw the burden of proof onto me.

It IS your burden of proof. The default position is to take things as they are. You posit a god, YOU must show evidence. Your claim is rejected until you do.

I found my experience of reality differing from the claims made by scientific materialists, for instance that no dream can contain future knowledge (they can).

Your standard of truth is pretty low, then. No one has even been able to show that dreams can be prophetic. Dreams, in fact, contain stuff from the past, not the future.

These are effects in the material world. Spiritual phenomena generally don't affect it. What they affect is minds.

If spiritual phenomena don't affect the material world, then they cannot be perceived by people, and no one would know about them. You can't have it both ways. Even if you think that minds are not material, which they are, they still interact with the material world.

Scientists have had the odd disagreement or two.

You're not listening. I'm not talking about disagreement over fine details. I'm talking about completely incompatible and unproven speculations.

As yours is now beginning to do with me.

I'm sorry if my standards are too strict for you, but that's what it is.

You seem to be conflating empirical knowledge with absolute knowledge.

Nope. There is no such thing as absolute knowledge.

Given the vast number of claims made, as you acknowledge, I would say the odds are at a few of them may be correct.

No. Each claim has to be studied independantly. Considering the number of possible solutions, their number has no bearing on their odds of being correct. Furthermore, even if you were right about this, that would defeat your own claim, since that claim would have very low odds of being correct.

As for 'objective reality' many would say that there is no such thing.

So the world doesn't exist beyond your mind? That is solipsism, a useless bit of philosophy even if it turned out to be true, which it isn't.

This kind of 'show me the evidence' talk is common

You can bet it's common. How do you think we've developed technology and medecine and the internet if not through rigorous testing and understanding? Do you think that your forefathers felt their way into plate tectonics? Don't pretend that your touchy-feely way of determining "truth" is the same used by others. Evidence is _crucial_ to determining how reality works.

It was a metaphor, comparing the mind to a mountain. It certainly has heights and depths though.

You're assuming your conclusion, here.

Believing is seeing.

People believe in all sorts of nonsense. Belief is not evidence. If god appeared to me right now, I'd consult a psychiatrist.

 

[Delvo]

Many people have reported thousands of different, weird experiences, some of which are mutually-exclusive. UFOs, ghosts, bigfoot, fairies, gods, you name it. If we follow your logic, they are ALL true, but they can't be

Scientists have had the odd disagreement or two. The Big Bang theory versus the Steady State. String theories in 5, 10, 11 and 26 dimensions (if the maths doesn't work, just add a dimension or two). Gene selection verses group selection. Evolution by natural selection versus Lamarckian evolution. Oxygen versus phlogiston. Scientists once believed in the luminiferous aether . . . Some scientists deny climate change . . . . Science still doesn't know what makes up most of the universe. Quantum physicists argue between the Copenhagen interpretation, the Many Worlds interpretation, the Pilot Wave and Qbism. The differences are not slight - they are immense.

Not only are you back to lying about science again (between rounds of desperately pleading "but I'm not anti-science!"), but you're doing so within an analogy that is itself a lie. Agreement among all claimants is required for a claim that we should just accept as true whatever someone says, and is not for a claim that we should not. The things are not analogous.

Believing is seeing.

From someone who has also gone the opposite direction, that is dictionary-example circular "logic".

 

[turingtest]

Originally Posted by turingtest
And let's don't forget that BT's point with all this was to claim that "science is getting closer to the bible."

You quote something I never said. Retract it.

I said

"Oh, I don't know. 100 or so years ago most physicists thought the universe had existed for ever. Only the Bible said it had a beginning. So science in that respect has moved closer to the Bible.

Wow. Pretty persnickety for someone who basically wants to read "in the beginning" as the Big Bang Theory (not to mention the numerological games you play with that verse).

But (shrug), ok, whatever, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I freely admit I improperly used quote marks in paraphrasing your claim- I retract the implication that you meant the idiotic claim that "science is getting closer to the bible" when all you really said was that "science in that respect has moved closer to the bible." I guess the sticking point is that I left out "in that respect"? Oh dear- I made a small idiocy into a bigger (but essentially the same) idiocy. I don't know how I'm going to sleep tonight...

 

[PartSkeptic]

Busy with other things and a couple of other threads, but back after a quick read.

The statement that God (if he exists) wishes to remain hidden is reasonable.

Either there is a God or there is not a God. God does not show himself, that we all agree on. But are there clues to his existence? The answer for many with faith is that clues do exist.

There are two types of clues. Material and Personal.

Material:
1 - There was a beginning from "nothing"
2- The Universe is indeed finely tuned
3 - Rather than being "dumb matter" the Universe is predisposed to create Intelligence
4 - Even if one can see the evolutionary line, the "motor" in the flagellum is remarkable, and the odds are against it
5 - The "gears" on a particular insects legs are also remarkable

Personal:
1 - Some people have experiences that science has (very) weak answers for
2 - Some people (the prophets) have experiences that change history

Science used to assume that what people saw, heard and touched was hard reality. Science has shown that matter pops in and out of existence, that spooky at a distance can happen, and that the Matrix mind is a logical possibility.

My personal experiences are numerous. I am skeptical, but solidly grounded in many ways. Mine was not a leap of faith but a gradual acceptance that a God (or sorts) is more likely than not. The balance of probabilities are in favor of the existence of an Ultimate Intelligence.

The arguments by many on this site answer that the Universe "just is". That sounds like a leap of faith to me.

They argue that since they have not had "experiences" that are remarkable (despite some stories that I do not accept as remarkable) others do not have such experiences.