A Second Channel of Communication?

According to your own words, if I look into this further, I will find more geometry. Moreover, as has been shown, the maths is not accurate, which is odd considering it was supposedly placed there by an omniscient god (or at least some kind of super-intelligent being: I'm not sure where you stand on this).
So, if I look deeper, I find geometry and maths, some correct and some not.

My response, then, is that this is not even worth a 'cool'. This still does nothing to prove the existence of whatever being you imagine is responsible.
As for the question of who did this, nothing you have posted so far has addressed this. Thus far, you have shown that, with a certain amount of tortuous mathematics involving carefully cherrypicked selected Biblical verses, it is possible to approximate some mathematical constants and other numerological curiosities. This does not, as far as I can see, shed any light at all on the supposed authors of the verses in question.
In fact, this leads me to ask whether all the verses of the Bible can be interpreted in this way? If they cannot, what does that tell us about their authorship? Were the numerologically significant verses penned by the super-being, and the others by mere human scribes? How can you tell?

First of all the maths is not tortuous. It's some of the simplest manipulations it is possible to do. Secondly, the maths is either perfectly accurate or, in the case of the pi and e calculations, reasonably accurate. It is impossible to get complete accuracy when working in this way with irrational numbers, as anyone with some familiarity with maths understands. Doesn't shed any light on the author? It tells you at the very least that the author knew more mathematics than Was known by man at the time the Scriptures were written. Isn't that of interest?
 
Doesn't shed any light on the author? It tells you at the very least that the author knew more mathematics than Was known by man at the time the Scriptures were written. Isn't that of interest?

The approximations of these significant constants is interesting — but to my mind, being unconcerned with fawning respect of superstition, I see only more questions.

You, and I was there once, see a hand at work. I recall when the Bible Code craze struck. For a short time, one intense afternoon, I experienced actual shock at the thought of a real god speaking undeniably. All those terrors and rumours of childhood came to the fore. I can't rightly say what calmed me; this was pre-internet, so there was no further information with which to immunize. I think my basic indifference to the foul idea of a god was enough to shrug-off the spell.

The questions this pi/e business raises in me are about the surrounding territory, and the fidelity of the data.

Fidelity:
Do the letter-numbers always map as shown? Are there differing systems? Delvo indicates controversy.

Is there some impact in the two languages when converting to the numbers? If one does the pi calculation in Greek, for example, what then?

Is there certainty that the words chosen for the calculations are the intended ones — to reveal these constants — or are there flavours of the wording that give other numbers?

Essentially: how special is the pleading? How narrow is the needle to make these constants, however crude, appear?

The surrounds:
What do other initial verses in the rest of the Bible produce under the same algorithm?

What is the frequency of finding pi/e (to the same error margin) in other texts? (Or even the Bible.) i.e. — for all I know the rough pi/e just fall out more often than not.


There are several assumptions you have made, which you marry to the findings, that I see as non-sequiturs.

The causal explanation to these "constants" gifted to a god, with all his attendant properties being so markedly depended from your personal hopes and fears is one. The timing, being coincident with your life and moment of faculty, is another.

There are those who would ascribe these messages to Aliens. Others to wholly different gods. Others to conspiracy by various hated human tribes. I ascribe them to the category of "potential knowledge — pending verification".

Once the vital steps of beating the findings from all sides has passed, and should there remain viable intrigue, then only is some degree of wonder acceptable. Even so, it would not point to any hand behind the scenes — much more and varied evidences would be compulsory.

I hearken to my previous posts wherein I urge you to speculate on the rôle you play on this urgent stage you so pace. If it is only you, and a smattering of others, who so ardently feel this hand taking your scruffs to rub your noses in such hidden arithmetics, then why? Why only you? Why leave so many billions bereft of the same visceral attendance to the event?

Etcetera.
 
The approximations of these significant constants is interesting — but to my mind, being unconcerned with fawning respect of superstition, I see only more questions.

You, and I was there once, see a hand at work. I recall when the Bible Code craze struck. For a short time, one intense afternoon, I experienced actual shock at the thought of a real god speaking undeniably. All those terrors and rumours of childhood came to the fore. I can't rightly say what calmed me; this was pre-internet, so there was no further information with which to immunize. I think my basic indifference to the foul idea of a god was enough to shrug-off the spell.

The questions this pi/e business raises in me are about the surrounding territory, and the fidelity of the data.

Fidelity:
Do the letter-numbers always map as shown? Are there differing systems? Delvo indicates controversy.

Is there some impact in the two languages when converting to the numbers? If one does the pi calculation in Greek, for example, what then?

Is there certainty that the words chosen for the calculations are the intended ones — to reveal these constants — or are there flavours of the wording that give other numbers?

Essentially: how special is the pleading? How narrow is the needle to make these constants, however crude, appear?

The surrounds:
What do other initial verses in the rest of the Bible produce under the same algorithm?

What is the frequency of finding pi/e (to the same error margin) in other texts? (Or even the Bible.) i.e. — for all I know the rough pi/e just fall out more often than not.


There are several assumptions you have made, which you marry to the findings, that I see as non-sequiturs.

The causal explanation to these "constants" gifted to a god, with all his attendant properties being so markedly depended from your personal hopes and fears is one. The timing, being coincident with your life and moment of faculty, is another.

There are those who would ascribe these messages to Aliens. Others to wholly different gods. Others to conspiracy by various hated human tribes. I ascribe them to the category of "potential knowledge — pending verification".

Once the vital steps of beating the findings from all sides has passed, and should there remain viable intrigue, then only is some degree of wonder acceptable. Even so, it would not point to any hand behind the scenes — much more and varied evidences would be compulsory.

I hearken to my previous posts wherein I urge you to speculate on the rôle you play on this urgent stage you so pace. If it is only you, and a smattering of others, who so ardently feel this hand taking your scruffs to rub your noses in such hidden arithmetics, then why? Why only you? Why leave so many billions bereft of the same visceral attendance to the event?

Etcetera.

I'm on holiday at the moment but I'll answer this interesting post tomorrow.
 
Children should, be taught how to think, not what to think, and that applies to atheists and sceptics as well as theists.
I couldn't agree more, and I doubt you'll find any sceptics here who would say otherwise. The indoctrination of children - teaching them beliefs as fact, when they are too young to have developed the reasoning ability to tell the difference - is something sceptics can get a bit hot under the collar about. I'm sure the two posters who thought there might be reason to raise the issue will be relieved to find that their fears are unfounded.

None of us can see the complete picture, so the best we can ever do regarding the question of God, or any other important question, is give the two sides we know.
So you will be directing the people you have convinced of the validity of your numerology to this thread, so they can read the counter arguments?
 
Oh, triangle. Do you have any concept of the depth of the abyss you're teetering on the edge of, if not already plummeting into? In the other thread you acknowledged having wasted a lot of time peering into real and metaphorical telescopes, but this particular 'scope is more of the kaleido- variety. Reflect random arrangements off of enough internal mirrors and they'll show you beautiful patterns, but searching for meaning in those patterns is the road to madness, and finding such meaning is a major milestone on the way there.

In a world where respectable physicists argue over whether or not this universe is a simulation, politicians are expected to lie, nuclear proliferation, consumerism, celebrity worship, bankers and advertisers running riot and people being paid millions of dollars to sing a tune, act in a movie and kick a ball between two posts, while others are bombed out of their homes for political objectives, I wouldn't be so sure about where the line should be drawn between sanity and insanity. I will answer this more fully tomorrow, but perhaps you should ask yourself in the meantime if your confidence in your own position regarding God is justified. I don't know what that position is, but you seem confident enough about it to see fit to question my sanity, and without really looking at what I have to show you.
 
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I couldn't agree more, and I doubt you'll find any sceptics here who would say otherwise. The indoctrination of children - teaching them beliefs as fact, when they are too young to have developed the reasoning ability to tell the difference - is something sceptics can get a bit hot under the collar about. I'm sure the two posters who thought there might be reason to raise the issue will be relieved to find that their fears are unfounded.


So you will be directing the people you have convinced of the validity of your numerology to this thread, so they can read the counter arguments?

Of course, as soon as all the skeptics on this thread have directed their family and friends to it, so they can be made aware of the claims I've made.
 
You're joking, right? Yes, high-school maths is all that's required to understand it, but creating the patterns is another thing entirely.
Not at all, for someone who already knows the language the text is to be in and is practiced at composition. Once you know what number you want your sentence to add up to, it's just a matter of finding the words to add up to it... aided, in ancient times, by a lack of standardization in spelling.
 
I took the first verse of Genesis, King James Version, and counted each of its symbols (letters, punctuation, and spaces). There are 55 in total.

Fifty-five! This is a magnificent sign from God herself.

I mean, think about it:

55 is figurate number.
55 is a palindrome.
55 = 11 x 5, both prime numbers, and 11 is another palindrome and 5 is another figurate number.
In the Periodic Table, the natural elements in Group 11 are copper, silver, and gold.
There are 11 spacetime dimensions in M-theory.

I could go on and on about 55, and 11, and 5, and 10 = 5+5, and 2 = 1+1, and 16 = 11+5, and ....

What does it all mean?????

Not a damn thing.
 
In a world where respectable physicists argue over whether or not this universe is a simulation, politicians are expected to lie, nuclear proliferation, consumerism, celebrity worship, bankers and advertisers running riot and people being paid millions of dollars to sing a tune, act in a movie and kick a ball between two posts, while others are bombed out of their homes for political objectives, I wouldn't be so sure about where the line should be drawn between sanity and insanity. I will answer this more fully tomorrow, but perhaps you should ask yourself in the meantime if your confidence in your own position regarding God is justified. I don't know what that position is, but you seem confident enough about it to see fit to question my sanity, and without really looking at what I have to show you.

No one is questioning your sanity, only your judgement. Just as we question the judgement of those who see the face of the Virgin Mary in a toasted sandwich. We see the patterns too, we just don't think the significance being attached to them is warranted.
 
In a world where respectable physicists argue over whether or not this universe is a simulation, politicians are expected to lie, nuclear proliferation, consumerism, celebrity worship, bankers and advertisers running riot and people being paid millions of dollars to sing a tune, act in a movie and kick a ball between two posts, while others are bombed out of their homes for political objectives, I wouldn't be so sure about where the line should be drawn between sanity and insanity. I will answer this more fully tomorrow, but perhaps you should ask yourself in the meantime if your confidence in your own position regarding God is justified. I don't know what that position is, but you seem confident enough about it to see fit to question my sanity, and without really looking at what I have to show you.

Do you recognise the irony that the people doing those things, more often than not claim to worship a god?
 
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Do you recognise the irony that the people doing those things, more often than not claim to worship a god?

More often than not? Where did you establish that?

Many of our worst behaviours are often the result of replacing God with some other object of worship, such as money, celebrity, sport, and power.
 
Pi and e are simple multiplications and divisions. No algebra, calculus or other subtleties required!
First of all the maths is not tortuous. It's some of the simplest manipulations it is possible to do.
But look at how many potential calculations that allows for. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponents, and concatenation are six different operations. (Concatenation will need to be treated a bit separately from the others below.) So any two starting numbers can be related to each other in at least six ways. But you've also allowed these operations to be strung together in series, when you talk about the ratios of products of serial sums or sums of multiple grouped products or whatever it was.

Although there are only two ways to arrange/concatenate two items in order, there are six for three items (abc-acb-bac-bca-cba-cab), 24 for four items (abcd-acbd-bacd-bcad-cbad-cabd-abdc-acdb-badc-bcda-cbda-cadb-adbc-adcb-bdac-bdca-cdba-cdab-dabc-dacb-dbac-dbca-dcba-dcab), 120 for five (just picture each of the 24 four-item sequences plus an "e" in each of the five possible spots before & after the first four), 720 for six (just picture each of those 120 five-item sequences plus an "f" in each of the six possible spots before & after the first five items), and so on. But that only gives us the number of possible orders in which to arrange the input numbers to prepare for these kinds of calculations. Then there's the question of what operations to do between each pair in the sequence, with five non-concatenating operations to choose from, each of which is quite simple on its own. That's five basic simple operations between the first two starting numbers, then five again if there's a third number, five again for the fourth, and so on, giving us totals of 25, 125, 625, 3125, or 15625 combinations for series of three, four, five, six, or seven inputs. But the numbers of possible arrangements and possible operations within each arrangement must be multiplied to find the actual number of options you can build up from these simple ingredients.
For two inputs: 5 operations on each of 2 arrangements: 10 options
For three inputs: 25 operations on each of 6 arrangements: 150 options
For four inputs: 125 operations on each of 24 arrangements: 3,000 options
For five inputs: 625 operations on each of 120 arrangements: 75,000 options
For six inputs: 3125 operations on each of 720 arrangements: 2,250,000 options
For seven inputs: 15625 operations on each of 5040 arrangements: 78,750,000 options

...and all you need to do is pick the one that gives you what you want.

(Consecutive additions, or consecutive multiplications, could be done in either order with the same answer, and the above isn't adjusted for that. But that only works for those two operations, and only if they're consecutive with the same kind of operation in the series, which would have been too complicated to account for in the above calculations and not have made a significant difference.)

"But wait", you might say, "I didn't use that many different inputs; I only started with one number!" But that wouldn't be true. You then allowed for another number from another Bible verse (which doesn't really even give the right number anyway), and then for separate counts of the numbers of letters per word for I don't even know how many words, and then for separate counts of words per verse. And on top of that, you allowed the results of one calculation to be the input for the next one. So the supply of inputs you're letting yourself choose from is another one of those runaway-train effects like the ones I showed above, where the more calculations you've done already, the more potential inputs you have to manipulate for the next round; I don't even know how many we're already up to in this case, but it's well over the seven that I did the numbers for above.

Then, when you're willing to say an answer matches some real-world thing even if it clearly doesn't match anyway, we have to multiply the above ranges of options by how many different kinds of misses there are per each one that you would count as hits. I'm not even sure how to begin categorizing those.

So, each time Jenkins says to add, ask yourself why it wasn't a conatenation. Each time Jenkins says to concatenate, ask yourself why it wasn't a square. Each time Jenkins says to square, ask why it wasn't a cube or a root. Each time he says to multiply, ask why it wasn't subtraction. Each time he says to subtract, divide, or concatenate, ask yourself why in the given order instead of some other order, and why other comparable words/numbers to the ones you're concatenating aren't included in the concatenation or why the ones that are included really belong together. And each time he says to do one thing six times in a row for a six-word phrase and then add them up or multiply them all together, ask why it wasn't something else six times in a row and then alternating +/-, or some other series of operations on the original six things followed by using the even-numbered words' results as exponents for the odd-numbered words... or doing one kind of operation when the last answer had a single digit and another when it had two or more... all while keeping in mind that every single one of those rejected options is exactly as simple, non-subtle, non-ingenious, and non-calculussy as the ones that made the cut.

...Then remember to go back through it all again and multiply anything that's dependent on the decimal system in the above ranges of options, like concatenation, by the number of other bases we could have been working in. (God would have known how data is encoded in computers, for example, which gives as at least three or four other bases to choose from immediately.)

...And when you get to Jenkins's answer for any given algorithm, if it doesn't really fit what Jenkins says it's supposed to fit, remember to ask yourself why God didn't actually hit the target, and why we're supposed to say he did.
 
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The letter is iota, and recognisable as iota. That's why it's called the iota subscript. The dasaia is no longer recognisable as a letter, even if it did evolve from eta.
Special pleading is...special.
Worse yet, I could have given a better defense of the idea of keeping the iota-that-isn't-an-iota myself, and was waiting for Blue Triangle to try it before bothering to explain why it's bunk too, but (s)he hasn't. It's pretty lame when your opponents could make your case better than you.

in a decimal system, as you move to the right along the string of numbers, each has only a tenth of the value it would have if it were one place to the left, a hundredth of the value it would have if placed two digits to the left, etc. So in terms of accuracy, the first few digits count almost everything towards the total.
That's a sound reason, especially in irrational numbers, for rounding off at some point and stopping. It is not a sound reason for continuing on past some point with wrong numbers when you could and should have rounded off and stopped.

It also isn't a sound reason for introducing a case where the latter foolishnes was done as if it were a case of the former, as you did with π and e at first. Doing better wouldn't have required continuing forever; it would only have required giving us a number that quits while it's ahead. Surely God could do that. Even Yyblax of Zebulon could do that. From your first description of the π thing, I figured surely you must be talking about 31,416 (maybe 31,415 if God does a bad chop-off instead of a proper rounding), because what it turned out to be instead wouldn't have even been worth mentioning. I gave this idea too much credit.

It's like someone claiming to have a million pounds and someone else arguing that in fact they have a million and eleven pounds and 32.73615 pence, Therefore their estimate of their total worth was completely wrong. No, the estimate was pretty accurate.
God wouldn't have needed to estimate. For a creator of a universe, anything that looks like an "estimate" to inhabitants of that universe whom he's supposed to be communicating with is simply an abject failure, pure garbage, nothing else.

Rounding off isn't estimating, and estimating isn't rounding off. The only possible correct thing to do in this case obviously would have been to use rounded-off numbers, not worthless "estimates" with almost four times too many apparently significant digits (and no sign of where the decimal point might belong, particularly given that it actually belongs outside of the given sequence). God failed to do so.

It is impossible to get complete accuracy when working in this way with irrational numbers, as anyone with some familiarity with maths understands.
What's not impossible, for someone with the kind of control over scripture-embedded numbers that your idea requires, would have been to give us something that only contains as many digits as are intended to be used. If 4 good digits is all we'll get, put it somewhere in the system in a way that will yield exactly those 4 intended digits, not 15 with the last 11 being gibberish. There was no possible obstacle at all preventing God from doing that... other than his simply not actually being behind any of this in the first place.

Doesn't shed any light on the author? It tells you at the very least that the author knew more mathematics than Was known by man at the time the Scriptures were written. Isn't that of interest?
That's not the very least. Even if I were to be generous and accept that these numbers were a hidden message of... some numbers... then "knew more than was known at the time" would still be the very most that it tells us. Getting from that to an entity that is located everywhere, knows everything, can do anything, and yet has never done anything else but this in our history, requires a few more steps you haven't shown yet.

BTW, if this highly impressive message of "I'm here and I know some fancy numbers" is being delivered to us on a second channel, what was the first?
The text of the Bible.
I was afraid of that. When the "first channel" is so utterly full of crap as that, it makes anything else fished out of it by these kinds of methods even worse; now the concept is not just that the universal creator sent us a pointless message of a few numbers hidden in a "second Bible Code" that isn't "the Bible Code", but that the universal creator sent us a pointless message of a few numbers hidden in a "second Bible Code" that isn't "the Bible Code" despite also being responsible for the train wreck of hopeless inaccuracies & mindless nonsense that the whole rest of the book is.

So you will be directing the people you have convinced of the validity of your numerology to this thread, so they can read the counter arguments?
Of course, as soon as all the skeptics on this thread have directed their family and friends to it, so they can be made aware of the claims I've made.
The equivalency you're going for there would only be applicable if somebody here had said that he's/she's/we've been spreading the word against this particular idea.

The haphazardly-collected (from at least four different sources, in at least two different traditions), inconsistently edited, sectarially redacted, contentiously canonized "text" of the "bible".

Yarite.
The Yarites were sinful and were punished accordingly. It's their fault, not God's.
 
More often than not? Where did you establish that?

Many of our worst behaviours are often the result of replacing God with some other object of worship, such as money, celebrity, sport, and power.

Oh, I don't need to establish it, I just need to claim it. It's my belief, you see. Just like your claim...
 
Not at all, for someone who already knows the language the text is to be in and is practiced at composition. Once you know what number you want your sentence to add up to, it's just a matter of finding the words to add up to it... aided, in ancient times, by a lack of standardization in spelling.

You forgot to add that this ancient scribe would also have had to have been a calculating genius, able to calculate the product of 29 numbers, then another eight numbers, then divide one total by the other, then adjust the text, with further abtruse calculations, to obtain the desired total (whilst ensuring the text was still grammatically correct and meaningful). That's also assuming that he knew pi to 5 significant figures, which was better than the best accuracy available then (unless we accept that a later editor did that, which introduces further complications, since he would be very restricted in how much he could have tampered with the text).

In addition to all of that, he would have been required to insert all the geometric marvels that appear in the text: 2701, for the entire text (a number whose geometric properties he would have to be an expert on), 703 for the last two words (this number being the core triangle of triangle 2701), numbers representing the stellar arrangement (37 stars of 73) and its internal hexagon (19 X 73, sum of words 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7). Then there is hexagon 1801 (sum of words 1, 3, 5 and 6), which happens to be the hexagon produced by self intersection of triangle 2701.

Further combinations of words give other geometric properties of the triangle, all thanks to this ancient scribe, who also managed to ensure none of it would be changed in future - unless we accept that those who, over the next couple of millennia, may have edited it, were also in on the deal, had the same extraordinary abilities as our antediluvian genius and had the same futile goals as he. One of these giants would of course have encrypted Euler's number into the opening verse of John, many centuries before the rest of the world discovered natural logarithms, somehow managing to obtain the same level of accuracy, such that when summed the errors almost completely cancel out.

Of course you're still arguing the point over the iota, so perhaps he got it slightly wrong there. Still you have to gape in awe at what they did achieve in all this (apart from that tiny flaw only you have detected), but at the same time shake our heads in pity at the futility of it all. Why on earth would they all do such a thing, and in such a way that it would be thousands of years before anyone found it? And not only geniuses were they, but evil geniuses at that, creating the literary equivalent of feeding false impulses into our brains-in-a-vat. Or maybe they were egotists (yet humble enough to keep their Olympian mental feats secret) and liked the idea that thousands of years in the future men would discover their futile efforts and not know whether to laugh or cry at the enormous waste of time and energy in the doing, in an age of counting beads and stones, of all these enormously difficult calculations for **** all.

In other words, by a kind of reductio ad absurdum, it makes no sense. Of course you might argue it's all one huge coincidence, but surely you wouldn't do that. Would you?
 
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You forgot to add that this ancient scribe would also have had to have been a calculating genius, able to calculate the product of 29 numbers, then another eight numbers, then divide one total by the other, then adjust the text, with further abtruse calculations, to obtain the desired total (whilst ensuring the text was still grammatically correct and meaningful). That's also assuming that he knew pi to 5 significant figures, which was better than the best accuracy available then (unless we accept that a later editor did that, which introduces further complications, since he would be very restricted in how much he could have tampered with the text).

In addition to all of that, he would have been required to insert all the geometric marvels that appear in the text: 2701, for the entire text (a number whose geometric properties he would have to be an expert on), 703 for the last two words (this number being the core triangle of triangle 2701), numbers representing the stellar arrangement (37 stars of 73) and its internal hexagon (19 X 73, sum of words 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7). Then there is hexagon 1801 (sum of words 1, 3, 5 and 6), which happens to be the hexagon produced by self intersection of triangle 2701.

Further combinations of words give other geometric properties of the triangle, all thanks to this ancient scribe, who also managed to ensure none of it would be changed in future - unless we accept that those who, over the next couple of millennia, may have edited it, were also in on the deal, had the same extraordinary abilities as our antediluvian genius and had the same futile goals as he. One of these giants would of course have encrypted Euler's number into the opening verse of John, many centuries before the rest of the world discovered natural logarithms, somehow managing to obtain the same level of accuracy, such that when summed the errors almost completely cancel out.

Of course you're still arguing the point over the iota, so perhaps he got it slightly wrong there. Still you have to gape in awe at what they did achieve in all this (apart from that tiny flaw only you have detected), but at the same time shake our heads in pity at the futility of it all. Why on earth would they all do such a thing, and in such a way that it would be thousands of years before anyone found it? And not only geniuses were they, but evil geniuses at that, creating the literary equivalent of feeding false impulses into our brains-in-a-vat. Or maybe they were egotists (yet humble enough to keep their Olympian mental feats secret) and liked the idea that thousands of years in the future men would discover their futile efforts and not know whether to laugh or cry at the enormous waste of time and energy in the doing, in an age of counting beads and stones, of all these enormously difficult calculations for **** all.

In other words, by a kind of reductio ad absurdum, it makes no sense. Of course you might argue it's all one huge coincidence, but surely you wouldn't do that. Would you?
The same reductio applies to your forceful god: what point?

What purpose, to eventually hand the bungled morass to a few minds self-declared visionary?

If this god wanted clarity, why speak through humanity's most fragile mouth: noisy biased brains?

Why pick numerology, pareidolia, confirmation instincts? Why sow your seeds on fallacies?

Why base your ministry on the most wretched mistakes humans are capable of?

What's wrong with speaking to our best ears? Put your revelation into Nature where our best stand, on shoulders, sifting critically through the real.
 

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