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Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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The article points out that plenty of expert witnesses were heard.

It works both ways, for example, the "expert" who claimed it was a statistical certainty that two of a woman's babies could not both have died of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) thus condemning her to jail and a pardon years later and leading to suicide by alcoholism.

The scientific experts should stick to the facts and not pretend that just because they are top of their field they can make things up to sway the court, just because of personal sympathy to either victim or defendant. It's the ethical issue of integrity.

The actual issue here is that a paediatrician when asked by the prosecuting barrister about the probability of two cases of SIDS occurring in one family made a statistical error. He was criticised for giving 'statistical' evidence when he was not a statistician. He did not volunteer the evidence, but responded to a question from counsel. The question was whether the two events would be independent, and so probabilities simply multiplied. In any case the testimony was irrelevant as neither prosecution nor defence claimed the deaths of the two children were SIDS. (SIDS = sudden infant death syndrome; the sudden and unexpected death of an infant with no identifiable cause).
 
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No. If Raff's DNA came from the door handle, then it follows, so might have Rudy's. We know Rudy was there. However, he claims his presence was innocent. You can't just say, we know Rudy was there and we don't believe he had a date, therefore it doesn't matter if his DNA is robust or not, because as scientists, we are objectively assessing what the DNA evidence is, regardless of any other evidence, or whether Rudy was there on a date, or there to burgle (Americans: there is no such word as "burglarize"; ugh!).

There is no sign of Rudy's DNA in the "burgled"room, nor the bathroom. There was one on the bag, one on Mez' body, one on the bra and one on the sweater. That is hardly "multiple" when we have at least FIVE DNA samples of Amanda mixed with Mez, when they bled at the same time, including a trail of Mez' blood leading into the burgled room, mixed with Amanda's DNA.

If the collection and analysis of the kids DNA is contaminated, then objectively and ethically, we have to say the same for Rudy's.

DNA science shouldn't be about opinion, depending on how much you like the persons involved or your belief in whether they should or should not be present.

Gill's big downfall is his lack of objectivity and open advocacy for the kids - both breaches of professional ethics - presumably based on his preconceptions about "Rudy the migrant drifter burglar".

Guede DNA found on the toilet paper in the loo; so evidence of presence in the bathroom, an additional positive DNA sample. So we have in the body, on the purse/handbag, and bra and sweater, five how many make multiple? Most definitions seem to be more than two?

Also non DNA handprint in wet blood in the bedroom, giving identity, time and place.
 
You fail to grasp that the DNA issue is not about the personalities involved. The PIP are completely unable to separate their advocacy from straightforward logic. For example, they will say of Amanda's DNA mixed with Mez' "Oh, that's all right, she lived there!"

In other words they are prepared to excuse the hard scientific evidence of Amanda being there whilst Mez bled to death, or within half an hour of it, as blood begins clotting straight away and dries quickly. Yet Rudy being there, whether innocently or not, is automatically "the sole killer" by virtue of it.

An objective person will realise there are many likely scenarios, which will differ according to whether (a) Rudy was a burglar with at least two knives (b) Amanda and Raff were there and the burglary was staged, by implication, by them, but that's no proof they were involved (Bruno-Marasca) (c) Rudy was there on a date, whether imagined or real, so of course his DNA is on the victim's body, as they made out, or (d) all three were involved and the fact of Rudy's DNA being there does not cancel out Amanda or Raff's DNA.

Gill is arguing that the DNA relating to Amanda and Raff is contaminated, but that relating to Rudy is not. This is repulsive logic to a reasonable ethical person, whether pro or con.

What Gill says is there is no time stamp to DNA, one does not know when it was deposited. If the is Knox DNA in association with Kercher blood, the Knox DNA could have been present before, deposited simultaneously of deposited later. One cannot assert that the only option is simultaneous deposition. However Guede's handprint in wet blood places him at the time and place of Kercher's murder regardless of DNA evidence.
 
LOL The editorial board consists of .... er.... Vince Pascali....um....didn't he walk off the case once he saw the evidence?....and .... Peter Gill...for it is he.

Maybe "top scientific persons" don't have the same ethical standards as us bean counters. We'd be disciplined if caught breaching objectivity by self-review.

These guys are all trying to get jobs as paid defence expert witnesses, right? That's where the filthy lucre is.

Editors do not do peer review. It gets sent out to independent experts (anonymously) so they are not influenced by feeling they might be identified as being critical of a senior person in the speciality. As Gill says he incorporated comments by reviewers.
 
Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni is one of Italy's leading forensic experts. She was part of the the Disaster Investigations Teams sent to identify victims of the South Asian tsunami in 2004. She had to pass a series of stringent state tests to join the scientific police in Rome.
You can download examples - not very stringent good high school science level - below A level above GCSE. There are revision guides, given a weekend and a miraculous grasp of Italian I could pass so I guess could everyone here.
 
The pair were exonerated. You are again oblivious to law and flounder under the erroneous misconception that the Italian Supreme Court of Appeal can "drop the charges".

This is patent nonsense. Defendants are never charged by the courts and therefore the court cannot drop the charges. The case can be dismissed by the courts if they feel the charges are nonsense, but the charges cannot be dropped by courts.

Excerpt from http://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=26794 written by Nicola Canestrini, an Italian criminal lawyer.....

"The Court of Appeals takes its decision by either confirming the first instance sentence, or by reversing it partially or totally, or it may quash it by sending it back to the first Judge."

No mention of "dropping charges".

This anomaly has come about because the Bruno-Marasca court erroneously used a penal code section not meant for their remit, but a lower court's.
 
Incorrect. Police in the US must also read the Miranda rights to anyone who is being "interrogated" (interpreted by SCOTUS as the police questioning someone whom they have reason to suspect of engaging in criminal activity), even if that person hasn't been arrested. So the situation is exactly the same as it is with the caution in the UK.

If a person is not in police custody, no Miranda warning is required and anything the person says can be used at trial if the person is later charged with a crime. This exception most often comes up when the police stop someone on the street to question him or her about a recent crime or the person blurts out a confession before the police have an opportunity to deliver the warning.

In effect when arrested. This has been posted now three times.
 
So this has to be before 21.00 when Kercher arrived home. But after 20.40 when Popovic saw Knox at Sollecito's. They then have to get to the square to be seen by Curatolo at 21.30, where they are present until around 23.30. So this leaves about 15 minutes for Knox, Sollecito and Kercher to meet up, and get over to lay in wait, (but why would they be wanting to borrow the car given that this is before any crime has occurred?). Then less than thirty minutes to have an argument, fight murder, stage a burglary clean up, dispose of phones (OK this probably did not occur until later when Curatalo saw Knox and Sollecito elsewhere so Guede or another accomplice must have disposed of the phones?

And Vixen implies the dark car is Raf's.
 
This anomaly has come about because the Bruno-Marasca court erroneously used a penal code section not meant for their remit, but a lower court's.

No. Wrong again.

"The Court of Appeals takes its decision by either confirming the first instance sentence, or by reversing it partially or totally,..."

What part of this really simple English are you struggling with?
 
Steffi could never get one of these jobs with her junior college degree.

Before you can start as a trainee you are likely to need an honours degree in a biology or chemistry-related subject. -

That's just entry level. That Dr Stefanoni was picked to be part of the Investigative Team in the 2004 tsunami in South Asia (one of 100 forensic scientists) indicates she is (a) highly regarded (b) possibly is from a medical background (c) has a great deal of experience in DNA collection and analysis as a result. In addition, that she volunteered indicates someone who is CARING, compassionate, dedicated, ethical and NOT someone who is corrupt up to the eyeballs and completely inexperienced, as the PIP scurrilously constantly claim.

What has Prof Peter Gill ever done but sit on his backside writing papers?


On December 26, 2004, a 9.0 Richter scale earthquake occurred north of
Sumatra Island. (1) The result of this extensive earthquake caused a huge tsunami
which later struck many countries on the coast of the Indian Ocean causing nearly
217,000 deaths and approximately 125,000 injured. In recorded history it is the
largest number of deaths caused by a tsunami (1).
http://www.who.int/hac/events/tsunamiconf/presentations/2_16_forensic_pongruk_doc.pdf


On average, around 100 staff from more than 20 countries was working in
the TTVI-IMC at any point in time. The unit included forensic specialists in
a number of areas, including Odontology, Fingerprints and DNA. The
centre was organised into various sections to process both ante and post
mortem information which was then entered into a specially created
database to assist with the identification of all victims of the Thai Tsunami.

DNA
The DNA team was represented by a number of nations from around the
world. The role of the DNA team was to facilitate the identification of
deceased persons by comparing and reconciling AM and PM DNA profiles.

For full details of the DNA work, go to page 123 onwards at www.interpol.int/.../INTERPOL-Tsunami-Evaluation-Working-Group

(NB Not copyrighted material. Free to quote.)

Lest we forget.
 
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This anomaly has come about because the Bruno-Marasca court erroneously used a penal code section not meant for their remit, but a lower court's.

Can you provide any source for this claim? If this were true then after waiting over a year to go to the highest court if they could see a clear mistake in law or interpretation of evidence it would take another year for the second level court to hear the case again.

Are you saying that the ISC has never ended a case before by declaring the defendant(s) innocent?
 
Guede DNA found on the toilet paper in the loo; so evidence of presence in the bathroom, an additional positive DNA sample. So we have in the body, on the purse/handbag, and bra and sweater, five how many make multiple? Most definitions seem to be more than two?

Also non DNA handprint in wet blood in the bedroom, giving identity, time and place.

Let's be clear, there are two bathrooms. The bathroom with Rudy's crap was the one at the front, and not the salient one next to Mez' room.
 

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What Gill says is there is no time stamp to DNA, one does not know when it was deposited. If the is Knox DNA in association with Kercher blood, the Knox DNA could have been present before, deposited simultaneously of deposited later. One cannot assert that the only option is simultaneous deposition. However Guede's handprint in wet blood places him at the time and place of Kercher's murder regardless of DNA evidence.

Amanda herself testified she bled - possibly from her earlobe - that day.

As far as Mignini was concerned, Amanda's blood mixed with Mez on that tap was the absolute clincher to her guilt.
 
That's just entry level. That Dr Stefanoni was picked to be part of the Investigative Team in the 2004 tsunami in South Asia (one of 100 forensic scientists) indicates she is (a) highly regarded (b) possibly is from a medical background (c) has a great deal of experience in DNA collection and analysis as a result. In addition, that she volunteered indicates someone who is CARING, compassionate, dedicated, ethical and NOT someone who is corrupt up to the eyeballs and completely inexperienced, as the PIP scurrilously constantly claim.

What has Prof Peter Gill ever done but sit on his backside writing papers?

http://www.who.int/hac/events/tsunamiconf/presentations/2_16_forensic_pongruk_doc.pdf

For full details of the DNA work, go to page 123 onwards at www.interpol.int/.../INTERPOL-Tsunami-Evaluation-Working-Group

(NB Not copyrighted material. Free to quote.)

Lest we forget.

Interesting that despite your rigorous defence of Steffanoni you do not know her background unlike I suspect most of the posters here. No she is not medical. She did an undergraduate degree in biology then was employed doing molecular biology at a post graduate level in medical research (but this is not being a medic). She then went from molecular biology to working in forensic science with as Steffanoni says in an interview no training in forensic science.

I do not know what she did, the logical thing was for her to stay in Italy and process specimens taken from victims. She may have worked in a lab locally. She is not a forensic pathologist or anthropologist so other than processing DNA samples form victims' tissues and relatives she had little expertise to offer. The situation here is very different, the source of a sample is clear, you are just matching (big) DNA samples to confirm identity either by partial matching to relatives or from known DNA of victims.

From Gill's CV - what has he achieved?

List of Major achievements:
1) I provided the first demonstration in 1985 that DNA could be extracted from degraded stain material, and that DNA ‘fingerprints’ could be obtained from such material. The results were published in Nature:
Gill, P., Jeffreys, A.J. and Werrett, D.J. (1985) Forensic application of DNA 'fingerprints'. Nature, 318, 577-579.
2) In conjunction with (1) I developed a revolutionary technique to separate sperm DNA from extraneous (female) material. Without this innovation it would have been impossible to analyse material from rape victims. These techniques are still used today.
3) I was closely involved with the first DNA case in the world. I carried out DNA analysis to confirm results provided by Alec Jeffreys. I subsequently led the team that carried out analysis on more than 1000 samples in the first example of the
4) I identified the systems (short tandem repeat analysis) that are used today in all national DNA databases throughout the world.
5) I developed the statistical methods used by the national DNA database in order to compare samples (e.g. by development of allelic ladders and associated matching algorithms).
6) I was the first to recognise the importance of STRs and to develop STR multiplexes for forensic purposes in 1993.
7) I designed the SGM plus system, and led the team that developed the first national DNA database in the world. This system comprised 6 STRs and had a discriminating power of 1 in 50 million.
8) I led the team that provided the subsequent update of the SGM system – namely the SGM plus system that provided a discriminating power of 1 in 1 billion. The systems that I developed have now been adopted world-wide.
9) I led the team that identified the remains of the Romanov family. This was the first demonstration that historical mysteries could be resolved using mitochondrial DNA and low-template autosomal DNA analysis.
10) In conjunction with (7) I demonstrated the first verified example of mitochondrial heteroplasmy that was not associated with genetic disease. This was a highly contentious discovery at the time.
11) I provided a demonstration that the highly contentious claim of Anna Anderson to be the Duchess Anastasia was false and identified her true relationship to Karl Maucher.
12) Recently, new evidence was discovered in Ekaterinburg. Two bodies were demonstrated to be the remains of Prince Alexei and a Russian princess. I was closely involved with the verification of the results. The results were published in PLOS.
13) I have developed extensive statistical theory and algorithms that are used to interpret mixtures. This theory has been adopted by several major commercial companies. Applied Biosystems have recently developed a commercial package called Genemapper-IDX that contains a mixture analysis software based on my original thinking.
14) I developed a biochemical test sufficient to analyse the DNA profile of a single cell. I concurrently developed the statistical theory and the algorithms that were required to facilitate the method.
15) I have given evidence in many major court cases, and in courts of appeal. Recently , I gave evidence at the Omagh bombing trial. In December, 2008 I gave evidence at a Frye hearing for the New York Police Department. This was to support the reporting of the first case involving low-template DNA in the US.
16) I am a regular contributor to Nature and the Nature series. I recently published an article Gill, P, When DNA goes on trial, Nature, 460, July 2009, 34-35.
17) I am currently playing a major advisory role related to the transition to update the multiplexes utilised in National DNA databases under the auspices of the ENFSI group.
 
Editors do not do peer review. It gets sent out to independent experts (anonymously) so they are not influenced by feeling they might be identified as being critical of a senior person in the speciality. As Gill says he incorporated comments by reviewers.

Let's have transparency. Who reviewed Gill?
 
No. Wrong again.

"The Court of Appeals takes its decision by either confirming the first instance sentence, or by reversing it partially or totally,..."

What part of this really simple English are you struggling with?


I am not looking at simple English, I am looking at the penal code section quoted by Bruno-Marasca, which is actually directed at merits courts.
 
Amanda herself testified she bled - possibly from her earlobe - that day.

As far as Mignini was concerned, Amanda's blood mixed with Mez on that tap was the absolute clincher to her guilt.

The two spots of blood were not mixed. The question must be asked: Why didn't the kids wipe away the blood on the faucet. They knew it was there because they reported it to F and the PP when they arrived.

There was also blood on a pillowcase of Amanda's from the ear.

Did the police find any wound that had bled? Not the bruise on her neck, btw.
 
Let's be clear, there are two bathrooms. The bathroom with Rudy's crap was the one at the front, and not the salient one next to Mez' room.

So which bathroom did Guede say he went into to wash the blood off of himself and get the towels he left in the bedroom?
 
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