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Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Oh total nonsense. This in a nutshell is emblematic of why your thinking is wrongheaded. That is more about your own personal feelings about America and Americans then anything.

You see America as the big bully on the block which naturally is transferred to its citizens. You're insecure about your country economically and probably culturally and you hate that. You see a privileged white girl and a family that stood up to defend her against some bureaucratic bullies full of themselves. It bothers you that America won again.

Too bad. Waaaaah!

Another particularly idiotic thing you said recently, you accused me of worshipping authority: you said the reason that motivated me was my authoritarian ideology, my alleged sacred feeling for authorities such as prosecutor and police.

It only show how idiotic your rants are. In fact, the only argument that you threw against me was the argument of authority: the Supreme Court judges said that.
That's all you had to say. You are only capable of the authority argument, but *I* am the authoritarian one, isn't that?
If there is anything that reveals racism, this is hypocritical inconsistency.

Your racism is really a very sad and old-fashioned cheap nationalism, what you do is fly stereotype-flags & slogans like "America is the land of the braves", etc.

What I see when I look at the Pro-Knox PR machine is a bunch of liars and self-righteous ignorant bullies who attack Mignini and believe people like Vecchiotti or Preston - yet, *I* am the one who "naturally transfers" qualities on its citizens...

As a matter of facts, the Bruno/Marasca ruling says: "it's a proven fact Knox was there, had bloody hands, heared Meredith's scream, there are multiple murderers Knox is also obviously guilty of malicious tracking. Ok, there is a lot of evidence, but they are acquitted anyway". She was there at murder, yes (p.45), but maybe she was not (p.47), even if it's "certain" that she was there at murder (p.49).
And there is also a suggestion of why it is "always tea time", despite the time: it's implicitly suggested through a scapegoating of unnamed investigators, who happened to be disliked an American PR. What the B/M verdict says is an equivalent of: they are guilty, but one is an Amarican and the other is a Mason defended by Bongiorno, they can put up a good political prssure (useful to people like minister Mr. Alfano) so they are free.
This is what the B/M says: they are guilty, but free. Based on the B/M standards requiring a proof of "active participation", Guede would go free as well. And that wouldn't make you angry?
 
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And this knee-jerk virulence and enemy oriented thinking casts a pall over every opinion you express. It's only natural that your views in this case are so irrepressibly antithetical and bizarre.

I am more interested in ponting ouf *facts* rather than opinions. Because facts are what the pro-Knox supporters get wrong and forget.
 
Speaking about blatant and cowardly dodging substantive issues.
The latest blatant lie of the pro-Knoxes, is the "translation" or "interpretation" they try to peddle of the Bruno/Marasca verdict.

The person you are talking with (Bill), might be ready to tell that Bruno/Marasca did not state that it is definitively proven that Amanda Knox was in the house when Meredith was killed and that she heared the scream; that it is a proven and self-evident fact that the killers are multiple, and that Knox falsely accused Lumumba with a malicious intent in order to cover up for someone guilty (possible herself); and that it is a proven fact that she washed her hands of Meredith's blood, because hse "probably" cleaned up the scene in order to cancel evidence.

These, btw, are only some of the things B/M writes, those damning to Amanda Knox (other things they say are devastating for the credibility of B/M themselves; for example, "forgetting" about the existence of a putative semen stain or falsely reporting that pc hard drives were destroyed).

And so, the latest pro-Knox-made lie will be try to portray the B/M text as if they were not listing objective elements but instead only reporting the "prosecution's opinion". What they can do is try to "alienate" Bruno/Marasca's statements from themselves and in order to re-frame them as "opinions". B/M write "objective" elements. The pro-Knox liars will be quick to re-write and change the text making them become things "the prosecutions regarded as".

This is the type pf persons you have before. That's the degree how they are scared about the truth. Even by actual words of a text.
Those people also have the gall to call people like me "confirmation biased".

I hope you're sitting down, Machiavelli, because I'm about to partly agree with you.

This whole issue of the status of M/B's words in Section 9.4ff is unclear enough to say that yours is a legitimate, albeit minority point of view. What is at issue is the authority of Cassazione to assert anything as "factual", outside of such synoptic recreations of a combined scenario.

I know what I believe about it, and I am confident you know what you believe. The point is that a year after the definitive acquittals (words that even Francesco Maresca uses) there is no way judicially for either you or me to prove ourselves right, outside of one of us approaching the Italian courts themselves for definitive clarification.

There it sits. Perhaps if Mr. Sollecito makes good on his legal threat against Rudy Guede, we'll find out for sure. You'll recall that Rudy himself offered up your rationale to RAI3, and Sollecito said he was going to protect his reputation.

Any, for me this is no longer a big deal - as the months since the scquittals turn into years, and everyon involved is getting on with their lives.

Good luck in pushing your minority view.
 
I hope you're sitting down, Machiavelli, because I'm about to partly agree with you.

This whole issue of the status of M/B's words in Section 9.4ff is unclear enough to say that yours is a legitimate, albeit minority point of view. What is at issue is the authority of Cassazione to assert anything as "factual", outside of such synoptic recreations of a combined scenario.

I know what I believe about it, and I am confident you know what you believe. The point is that a year after the definitive acquittals (words that even Francesco Maresca uses) there is no way judicially for either you or me to prove ourselves right, outside of one of us approaching the Italian courts themselves for definitive clarification.

There it sits. Perhaps if Mr. Sollecito makes good on his legal threat against Rudy Guede, we'll find out for sure. You'll recall that Rudy himself offered up your rationale to RAI3, and Sollecito said he was going to protect his reputation.

Any, for me this is no longer a big deal - as the months since the scquittals turn into years, and everyon involved is getting on with their lives.

Good luck in pushing your minority view.

?!
:D

Minority point of view?

WTF, are you telling me Bruno/Marasca is unclear when he uses the word "objective"?

Bill, you are laughable. You are trying to present what I am saying about the text as if it was a "point of view", something that only I "believe" but that should be "proven right".

And yet, Bruno/Marasca is indeed contradictory, that's true, since he says one thing here and another there; but the truth is, it is not at all unclear. His statements do NOT allow any second interpretation (like the one you propose)!

The comical thing is, in the face of what you say, is that Bruno/Marasca statements are instead crystal clear.

But in your mind - of a person who cannot read Italian - that becomes... a *minority* point of view. :D Bill!


Btw, look at what Marco Gregoretti has to say, just after reading Marasca-Bruno:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NOYOHPtAyM
 
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I don't recall any series of assertions not backed by facts which results in suggestions of racism. Quite the reverse.

Lets look at the first time I suggested that racism was motivating the way Friends of Amanda dealt with evidence:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11132973#post11132973

Let's recap, we have three witnesses to a scream around 11 pm. One of whom, Kokomani, said the person screaming was Amanda Knox.

In a verbose, flatulent display you simply dismiss all the evidence saying "it amounts to nothing." Why? Because if there was a scream around 11 pm your scenario of the crazed, black sexual predator collapses. Ergo, the scream simply can't be allowed to exist.

Now imagine if the witnesses had said they heard the scream around 21:30 -all the Friends of Amanda would be falling over themselves to say how credible that evidence was!

So how can it be denied that evidence is accepted or denied by Friends of Amanda purely on the grounds of race?

Because Kokomani was called an unreliable witness by none other than Judge Massei in his 2010 report!

To uphold the thesis of non-acquaintance they pointed to the unreliability of witnesses Gioffredi and Kokomani, and this Court considers reasonable what they highlighted on this point: the activity on Raffaele Sollecito’s computer makes an encounter with him in the time-span indicated by Gioffredi scarcely plausible; also the red coat which Amanda apparently wore at that time, a coat of which there was no other evidence, does not allow [us] to consider as believable the circumstances related by Gioffredi, and according to which he allegedly also saw Rudy accompanied by Raffaele, as well as by Amanda and by Meredith.

The inconsistencies in Kokomani’s statements are even more obvious. It is enough to think of the black bag which then revealed itself to be two people and of the throwing of olives and of a mobile phone which had allegedly been used to make a video which was subsequently shown to others and, furthermore, the time he had seemingly seen Amanda, a time predating her arrival in Italy and the mention of an uncle of Amanda’s of whose existence no one was able to supply confirmation.​

Your comment was: "So how can it be denied that evidence is accepted or denied by Friends of Amanda purely on the grounds of race?" Massei clearly did not believe anything Kokomani said. Massei is not a racist.
 
?!
:D

Minority point of view?

WTF, are you telling me Bruno/Marasca is unclear when he uses the word "objective"?

Bill, you are laughable. You are trying to present what I am saying about the text as if it was a "point of view", something that only I "believe" but that should be "proven right".

And yet, Bruno/Marasca is indeed contradictory, that's true, since he says one thing here and another there; but the truth is, it is not at all unclear. His statements do NOT allow any second interpretation (like the one you propose)!

The comical thing is, in the face of what you say, is that Bruno/Marasca statements are instead crystal clear.

But in your mind - of a person who cannot read Italian - that becomes... a *minority* point of view. :D Bill!


Btw, look at what Marco Gregoretti has to say, just after reading Marasca-Bruno:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NOYOHPtAyM

You are entitled to have your view. I can only repeat, the real way to determine who is right would be to reengage an Italian court over this.

One can only conclude that yours (and Rudy Guede's) point of view in this regard is not catching traction, because no one in Italy sees it as important enough to move into a courtroom. From this vantage point, if M/B is either unclear or vague or contradictory, and this is a view (as you might claim) well recognized in Italy, why are we only hearing about it from you and Rudy Guede?

From what we here heard, Rudy's claims about M/B got a good airing and then basically disappeared. Sollecito said he would not stand by and be defamed.

There it sits.
 
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Speaking about blatant and cowardly dodging substantive issues.
The latest blatant lie of the pro-Knoxes, is the "translation" or "interpretation" they try to peddle of the Bruno/Marasca verdict.

The person you are talking with (Bill), might be ready to tell that Bruno/Marasca did not state that it is definitively proven that Amanda Knox was in the house when Meredith was killed and that she heared the scream; that it is a proven and self-evident fact that the killers are multiple, and that Knox falsely accused Lumumba with a malicious intent in order to cover up for someone guilty (possible herself); and that it is a proven fact that she washed her hands of Meredith's blood, because hse "probably" cleaned up the scene in order to cancel evidence.

These, btw, are only some of the things B/M writes, those damning to Amanda Knox (other things they say are devastating for the credibility of B/M themselves; for example, "forgetting" about the existence of a putative semen stain or falsely reporting that pc hard drives were destroyed).

And so, the latest pro-Knox-made lie will be try to portray the B/M text as if they were not listing objective elements but instead only reporting the "prosecution's opinion". What they can do is try to "alienate" Bruno/Marasca's statements from themselves and in order to re-frame them as "opinions". B/M write "objective" elements. The pro-Knox liars will be quick to re-write and change the text making them become things "the prosecutions regarded as".

This is the type pf persons you have before. That's the degree how they are scared about the truth. Even by actual words of a text.
Those people also have the gall to call people like me "confirmation biased".

Mach, the writing in the judgement is complex and beyond my Italian. So you may or not be correct. However, even if the court had concluded that Knox and Sollecito were guilty BARD, I would still think that this was a miscarriage of justice. If the court has concluded this I do not think they are correct. Courts are poor places to discover truth. In England this has been recognised and there is an extrajudicial system to address miscarriages of justice that is not bound by previous court opinions or strict rules of evidence.

So whether the court said Knox and Sollecito were there at the time of the murder or not; I think there is no reliable evidence of their presence. I think whether or not the court ruled the murder was committed by more than one person, there is no reliable evidence that can determine this. No there is not evidence BARD that Knox and Sollecito were elsewhere (nor do I have evidence I was not there), No there is not evidence BARD that only one person was involved in the crime.

The court did determine that Knox and Sollecito were not proven guilty BARD, and that the police investigation was too inadequate that there was any possibility of a safe conviction being achieved.
 
(...)

This whole issue of the status of M/B's words in Section 9.4ff is unclear enough to say that yours is a legitimate, albeit minority point of view. What is at issue is the authority of Cassazione to assert anything as "factual", outside of such synoptic recreations of a combined scenario.

(...)

If one assumes the Cassazione has no authority to assert anything factual, the logical implication would be that they can never find someone "innocent" or "not guilty" as much as "guilty", and not even draw any consequence out from any alleged factual ground (which you suggest they can't verify directly). I suggest you shall be consistent if you decide to dispute legitimacy.

A fact is the Cassazione does not present "recreations", it says instead that it lists "elements", calling them "objective elements", but it says that those objective elements are "contradictory".

And btw, the Cassazione also describes as objective and self-evident the fact that Knox committed calunnia in order to cover up for some killer, and not as a consequence of coercion or false memory.

The 5th panel also say that they subscribe to the opinon of Nencini that deemed reliable the part of Knox's story where she described hearing Meredith's scream.
And also, B/M most clearly say they subscribe to the judges' finding that Meredith was certainly killed by more than one person based on physical evidence.

B/M also said it is "probable" that Knox's washing her hands of Meredith's blood was due to an attempt to clean up evidence of the crime in order to steer away suspicion from herself or from the killer, but the fact that she entered into contact with blood is certain, and note that besides the option of taking part to a cover up, the second possibility is only that she killed her (what only lacks they say, is evidence of "active participation").

This is what the 5th panel says.
 
Mach, the writing in the judgement is complex and beyond my Italian. So you may or not be correct. However, even if the court had concluded that Knox and Sollecito were guilty BARD, I would still think that this was a miscarriage of justice. If the court has concluded this I do not think they are correct. Courts are poor places to discover truth. In England this has been recognised and there is an extrajudicial system to address miscarriages of justice that is not bound by previous court opinions or strict rules of evidence.

So whether the court said Knox and Sollecito were there at the time of the murder or not; I think there is no reliable evidence of their presence. I think whether or not the court ruled the murder was committed by more than one person, there is no reliable evidence that can determine this. No there is not evidence BARD that Knox and Sollecito were elsewhere (nor do I have evidence I was not there), No there is not evidence BARD that only one person was involved in the crime.

The court did determine that Knox and Sollecito were not proven guilty BARD, and that the police investigation was too inadequate that there was any possibility of a safe conviction being achieved.

Your opinion may be well discussed as an independent topic. Here in this post it looks like you are mixing up your own opinion with some bits taken from the B/M verdict. This creates a bit of confusion, imho.

I do think there is evidence BARD that more than one person was involved in the crime. I note that B/M happen to agree with me on this particular conclusion, and the judges who convicted Guede agreed as well.
 
You may not believe this, but I don't have anti-Americanism as pastime.
Yes I know Canadians often do have a vocal anti-USA attitude. Once I had a canadian neighbour who used to complain about the USA and their "imperialism" every other day.

As much as I wouldn't consider myself as specifically anti-American, I wouldn't call myself anti-Russian. However, I am also conscious that countries are in fact imperialist bullies, they are not moral players, and people are victimized and oppressed by self-righteous powers who cause perpetration of injustice through various brutal methods. Those powers also usually maintain a narrative of lies favourable to their own agenda.
This has not much to do with the particular state or country, doesn't depend on nationality, doesn't have to do with name of the country who commits the crimes.

Nonetheless, false narratives and self-righteousness is what outrages me. When I think at United Stetes, I associate's things Pinochet's golpe in Chile organized by Henry Kissinger, and I think about many young people of Italian descent who were thrown into the ocean. I think the US justice system is crap and I'm afraid it's a profoundly unjust society where 1% of population possesses 60% of richness, and in general I perceive American society as culturally and legally primitive, not the best place for me to live in. But being bullies on an international theotre is not a peculiarity of the USA. I am sure Italy (or similar countries lie France) did commit their crimes and swept them under idle narratives like any other power. Imperialism of bullies also is susually met by equally repugnant servility from their "victim" countries, which is even more outrageous to me. Yet I am not ready to accept that people are thown into the ocean and nobody brings justice to them, and I am not going to say "yes" to imperialism, false narratives and servility: it's not my nature.

So the question of anti-Americanism makes little sense to me. But the contempt of sovereignity, lack of understanding and indifference Americans have shown with respect to justice and point of view of foreign people, has objectively a long list of records.



You have a problem with acknowledging facts.



This is called a petitio-principii.



This is not an astonishing ability of guilters, but rather, it is a yardstick of the untruthfulness of the pro-Knox supporters. Do you remember? It was YOU who used to claimed that I asserted to have become convinced of Knox's guilt after looking at her photograph? This was YOUR straw man. You don't really remember? You went on possibly many months believing this story you made up yourself.
You used to say "Machiavelli believes Knox's guilt since he saw her photogralh". It's all made up by you.

On the other hand, the degree by which the pro-Knox were ready to cutt off slack, downplay and deny before the evidence that Knox was a liar, is telling of everything.

The fact that Knox's "friends" reunion is only made of whites is not something I am making up. It's a matter of fact. And that qualifies it - statistically - as a racial group. Simply the pro-Knox PR machine appears to be racially targeted. You won't be able to bring evidence that the non-white population has an equal representation among the pro-Knox supporters.



And where do you pick up this from, now? Tell me please, where did I write "the whole" City of Seattle?
You are making it up, again.
The truth is I never said that.
(or quote the line where I say "whole" etc., thanks).



Sorry, don't be senseless. That makes really no sense. Florence public prosecution office dos not have jurisdiction on Section 5 of Cassazione.
That would require a denounciation to the Rome prosecution office.
(your assertions about what is "lost" are again things you are making up yourself).



As always, you only guess and rationalize without evidence. This is nothing but dietrology. It is fallacious: you try to "deduce" things you don't know about reality out of alleged things about the poster or third person which you also have no evidence about.
You always played this game. Your nature is repelled by the idea of talking about something directly or honestly, without rebouncing through manipulation and insinuation about alleged words, actions or motivations of someone else you speculate about. It's like when you used to say "Nencini belives females have Y chromosomes", based on (among other things) your erroneous assumption that he would agree with Vecchiotti, something you derived from changing his words in another statement.



No. It was not a defamation charge. It was a calunnia charge.
And she is acquitted by now only on first instance (we don't know the grounds; it might even be only on points of law, because calunnia is a charge quite different from defamation).



I suppose very well. Mignini will win.



?!

(...)



Judge Hellmann said in an interview: "the case will remain unsolved".
Courts found Guede was not holding the murder weapon, the break in was staged, and Knox is definitively acquitted of perverting justice by falsely accusing an innocent.
Bruno/Marasca said Knox was there and heared Meredith's scream, emphasized there are multiple murderers, and pointed out no way the Knox's calunnia against Lumumba could be forced or involuntary and no way she could change something at ECHR. Also found that she washed her hands of Meredith's blood, that she did so while trying to erase evidence (if not while killing).
What Italians wrote include Chieffi which makes points of law that are definitive and valid. This is the state of facts in Italy.



My reading of what Hellmann writes, is that Guede could not hang around with Sollecito and Knox because they are "good fellows" while he is "different".

If I can correct you on this the courts are very specific on this. They say that since the prosecutor never presented the case that Guede had used the knife they cannot rule on this fact. If the case was not presented to the court they cannot rule on it. That is to say you misrepresent the facts; the courts did not rule Guede did not hold the murder weapon.

The courts did rule that Knox and / or Sollecito did not stage a break in, steal money or phones, carry a weapon, or commit a murder or sexual assault. The courts also ruled the callunia was not aggravated which would have been the case if the courts thought that Knox committed the callunia to defend herself having committed a criminal act. The fact that they ruled the callunia was not aggravated shows that they thought Knox was not involved in any criminal action.
 
(...)

One can only conclude that yours (and Rudy Guede's) point of view in this regard is not catching traction, because no one in Italy sees it as important enough to move into a courtroom. From this vantage point, if M/B is either unclear or vague or contradictory, and this is a view (as you might claim) well recognized in Italy, why are we only hearing about it from you and Rudy Guede?

Translation: you intend to dodge it. You will not deal with discovering what the text says. You will keep yourself cautiously away from it. But instead, you will look around wearily only to see if there is some "traction" (aka: if there are many people who seem to notice or to care about it).
The truth doesn't interest you. You are interested in whether there is "traction".
Yet you say it's only me and Rudy Guede, it means you already forgot journalist Marco Gregoretti whose video I linked in the previous post.
You also somehow forgot about Selvaggia Lucarelli, and the thousands of comments on her page. Just look how many "likes" comments against Sollecito or favourable to Guede get.

Commenti a Lucarelli.jpg

But the point is, I am not here to talk about what other people talk about. I am not Bill Williams. I am interested in talking about truth, not about "traction".
 
Translation: you intend to dodge it. You will avoid dealing with what Bruno/Marasca actually says.

I'm still stunned you regard what I say or don't say as important enough to accuse me of ANYTHING. You've kind of made my day!

I have dealt with it. I have said that I can see your point of view, while still disagreeing with it. I have written at length why. Right now as months are turning into years since the definitive acquittal with no one other than (apparently) you (and Rudy Guede) pushing this particular point, I am getting bored with engaging you about this and perhaps just about anything else.

But man O man you can type at length at me - and it serves not to advance your own point of view one iota. Have at it dude!
 
But the point is, I am not here to talk about what other people talk about. I am not Bill Williams. I am interested in talking about truth, not about "traction".

Now you're fibbing. You have talked TODAY and AT LENGTH about what other people talk about. Hoots!
 
Your opinion may be well discussed as an independent topic. Here in this post it looks like you are mixing up your own opinion with some bits taken from the B/M verdict. This creates a bit of confusion, imho.

I do think there is evidence BARD that more than one person was involved in the crime. I note that B/M happen to agree with me on this particular conclusion, and the judges who convicted Guede agreed as well.

Mach I appreciate my comment may not have been clear.

When ruling on a fact such as one vs. more than one how do the courts rule this BARD. Surely the ruling just has to be on the balance of probability. Unlike innocence vs guilty there is not a clear default state for these facts. So the courts will merely decide which is more likely i.e. they rule the odds for one murderer are less than for more than one, but this might be only 49 vs 51% odds. I f ruling e.g. 1 vs 2 vs 3 vs more than 3 the odds might only be e.g. 25%, 24%, 26%, 25%. The courts do not rule this is an exclusive certainty only that they think this is the most likely of all alternate explanations.
 
Question, why does Machiavelli argue a case where the highest court in his/her nation declared them not guilty. Even if the state tried to do an "Oops, we changed our mind" response, the rest of the developed world would just laugh at them. I am curious why Machiavelli suddenly appears now?

The same can be argued why you are bothering to argue with him/her as well?
 
If I can correct you on this the courts are very specific on this. They say that since the prosecutor never presented the case that Guede had used the knife they cannot rule on this fact. If the case was not presented to the court they cannot rule on it. That is to say you misrepresent the facts; the courts did not rule Guede did not hold the murder weapon.

I'm saying you're wrong, Planigale. The courts said explicitly that Guede was not holding the murder weapon. This finding has become res judicata.
In fact, Guede got a generic mitigation (from "life" to 24 years - turhend into 16 automatically in their application because of type of trial) partly because he was not the one holding the murder weapon.

Bruno/Marasca was not the court who said that, but the courts have indeed said so.

The Giordano-Iannelli court also finds out that the lower courts (Borsini-Belardi) followed a correct procedure of assessing evidence. All those courts emphasize that the lone-perpetrator scenario is contradicted by a continuous set of evidence on multiple levels (it's not just about who was holding the weapon).

The courts did rule that Knox and / or Sollecito did not stage a break in, steal money or phones, carry a weapon, or commit a murder or sexual assault.

As for carrying a weapon, there was no SC ruling. As for the staging of the break in, the courts nonetheless ruled that the break in was indeed staged. To be more clear, the court (B/M alone) ruled that there was insufficient evidence to go beyond reasonable under 530.2, rather thaey "did not" do things.

The courts also ruled the callunia was not aggravated which would have been the case if the courts thought that Knox committed the callunia to defend herself having committed a criminal act.

Of course, but this speaks rather about the inconsistency of the B/M court itself; this is why they come across as politically motivated. Because at the same time, all courts agreed that Knox's calunnia was a malicious act, and even B/M dismisses any suggestion that Knox might be "saved" by ECHR.

The fact that they ruled the callunia was not aggravated shows that they thought Knox was not involved in any criminal action.

Before the - to me - quite glaring contradiction between holding Knox guilty of calunnia, and at the same time rule there is insufficient proof to conclude guilt of murder, well, I think this is for everyone to make their own mind about the true motive behind the B/M judgement.
 
Question, why does Machiavelli argue a case where the highest court in his/her nation declared them not guilty. Even if the state tried to do an "Oops, we changed our mind" response, the rest of the developed world would just laugh at them. I am curious why Machiavelli suddenly appears now? (...)

What I am discussing about is why the pro-Knox supporters lie. Didn't you notice that?
 
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