Creationist argument about DNA and information

Good question, im not an expert in information theory, but some of this is addressed in a podcast of Perry's debate with PZ Myers:

http://cosmicfingerprints.com/pz-myers/

PZ seems to concede that its a code, but that original life was just chemistry (echoing some of the comments early in this thread)
It's a fun read, especially the comment section where Perry gets in an argument with a YEC. :D

Thanks for the link; I'll have to go back and read it later, when I have more time.
 
Anyway, other's have already pointed at some good resources, and there are plenty natural of examples of information being generated without a mind.

When I read the argument a refutation came to mind based on knowledge theory but I wondered if there was a better one.
 
When I read the argument a refutation came to mind based on knowledge theory but I wondered if there was a better one.

One that might be easy to point out is an evolutionary algorithm as used in engineering.

The changes are unintelligent. The selection criteria don't need to be intelligent, and some novel "designs" can arise, which one might never design conventionally.

http://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits/
 
A version of Creationist thinking, involving DNA and "code", and also accepting much of the microevolution that can be reliably documented, says that God created the original superspecies, as described in Genesis. Since then these superspecies have (d)evolved by the basic rules of genetic heredity, plus the occasional genetic mutations. According to this view, evolutionary processes mainly impoverish the originally rich DNA code of the original superspecies.

Key arguments of this theory (in addition to using the Genesis story as the indisputable starting point for everything else) is that many organs which have supposedly evolved slowly in millions of years, mutation by mutation, such as the eyes of various mammals, are so complex in design, and totally useless until perfectly ready, that random mutations getting all the pieces together into a functional design is not realistically possible. Devolution from a perfect design towards poorer designs does not require such an amount of luck in the random genetic mutations.

Fossil evidence goes mostly in the opposite direction than this theory, from simple in the bottom layers to complex in top layers. This gets explained away by theorizing that carbon dating is nonsense, and the fossil layers have been produced during a natural catastrophe (such as the Flood of Noah) within days rather than millions of years. Small and simple creatures would be in bottom layers because they naturally get mixed there when masses of water and mud cover everything. Not sure how strong this argument is what comes to fishes, whose life is not so dramatically threatened by a flood.

The "DNA code" part of this theory is the idea that the original rich DNA code was designed, and since then it has randomly degenerated. These people view it as virtually impossible that the code of complex eyes etc. would have been produced by random processes, rather than by a thinking mind.
 
......Fossil evidence goes mostly in the opposite direction than this theory, from simple in the bottom layers to complex in top layers. This gets explained away by theorizing that carbon dating is nonsense........

What has carbon dating got to do with fossil evidence?
 
What has carbon dating got to do with fossil evidence?
Honest answer: I am not sure.

Assumed answer: If carbon dating functions, and the lower layers are older than the top layers, then carbon dating would say that the bottom layers are X years older than the top layers, and Creationists would need to counter that claim with "carbon dating is nonsense".
 
I got into a discussion with a guide at a small creationist "museum" near Springfield, MO, when we went to Skepticon V. I pointed out to him that Missouri had hundreds of feet of limestone, which is created by dead microscopic sea creatures collecting over time. I also pointed out that you can find coral, which isn't exactly fast growing, in many places in the state.

He shrugged. PZed snickered.

So it goes.
 
I got into a discussion with a guide at a small creationist "museum" near Springfield, MO, when we went to Skepticon V. I pointed out to him that Missouri had hundreds of feet of limestone, which is created by dead microscopic sea creatures collecting over time. I also pointed out that you can find coral, which isn't exactly fast growing, in many places in the state.

He shrugged. PZed snickered.

So it goes.


Indeed, the Victorians has worked out that the Earth was at least hundres of millions of years old based on such observations and without the knowledge of isotope ratios (or indeed, radioactivity).
 
What has carbon dating got to do with fossil evidence?

Creationists often think carbon dating is the name for all dating methods or is the only one. Hopefully, JJM knows the difference and is just talking about what creationists believe.

In fact, carbon dating only dates non-fossilized formerly living material.
 
Honest answer: I am not sure.

Assumed answer: If carbon dating functions, and the lower layers are older than the top layers, then carbon dating would say that the bottom layers are X years older than the top layers, and Creationists would need to counter that claim with "carbon dating is nonsense".

Nitpick: carbon dating is only accurate to about 40,000 ya, so is of little use on the geological time scales you're speaking of. I assume you mean radiometric dating in general, which applies to the use of any or all radioactive isotopes.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating
 
Key arguments of this theory (in addition to using the Genesis story as the indisputable starting point for everything else) is that many organs which have supposedly evolved slowly in millions of years, mutation by mutation, such as the eyes of various mammals, are so complex in design, and totally useless until perfectly ready, that random mutations getting all the pieces together into a functional design is not realistically possible. Devolution from a perfect design towards poorer designs does not require such an amount of luck in the random genetic mutations.
Also known as "irreducible complexity".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity
Darwin himself already had a theory about the evolution of the eye. And all claimed cases of "irreducible complexity" put forward by the creationist/IDiot crowd, have been blown out of the water as not actually being irreducible. To keep with the eye example, a retina (i.e., light-sensitive cells) is actually useful without a lens before it. You don't get to see the sharp images we see, but you do see light versus dark or even movement, which does give a survival edge (in the right circumstances).
 
Nitpick: carbon dating is only accurate to about 40,000 ya, so is of little use on the geological time scales you're speaking of. I assume you mean radiometric dating in general, which applies to the use of any or all radioactive isotopes.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating


Carbon dating is not valid on geological time scales. However, it has more significance to a Creationist because it is the only one with calculated values that can be 'checked' by non-radioisotope methods. It is also significant because it is the only one which is calibrated using tree rings.

Carbon dating (CD) is the only radiometric method where the radiometric age of the sample can be checked against the historical events witnessed by human beings. Scientist claim that CD is valid for the last few millennia, when we have historic records. The same scientists claim that uranium-thorium-lead dating IS not valid for samples younger than a few thousand years. One can also check the carbon date against tree rings which are counted.

There are a few physical processes that bias the age determined by radiometric dating. Scientists will admit that cross contamination is a big problem which scientists often analyze to figure out the limit the validity. Creationists usually deny that cross contamination is a problem, refusing to check it. Instead, Creationists prefer to argue with the uniformity of physical processes. Many Creationists argue that the rate of radioactive decay has speeded up over the years making the calculated ages of rock appear older. Another gambit used by Creationists is to claim that the initial distribution of isotopes was vastly different a few millennia ago due to the fact that the rock was actually Created.

The initial isotope distribution in CD is determined by the isotope ratios of carbon in the atmosphere. This is greatly affected by the carbon cycle which itself is vulnerable to a lot of environmental variables. For instance, the burning of fossil fuels by human beings has greatly affected the carbon isotope distributions in the last five hundred years. Any plant dated by the carbon cycle in the last 500 years is likely to be biased by the carbon in coal and oil, which is hundreds of millions of years old.

Scientists use tree rings to calibrate the CD age values. Creationists point to this as an example of circular reasoning. However, they ignore the fact that multiple tree rings are used. The calibration is based patterns that occur on a large number of tree rings. They also ignore the fact that the carbon is actually IN the ring. This greatly reduces the amount of error caused by the calibration.

The initial isotope distribution in CD is determined by the thermodynamics of liquids and solids. The working hypothesis is that the rock was created slowly at near equilibrium conditions. If the rock was created in a week, thermal equilibrium is invalid. The isotope ratio would have to be set by God, who created it. Furthermore, the isotope ratio can be changed by rock being heated close to the melting point. The exposure of a rock to very hot water can also change the calculated UTL date by leaching the isotopes out of the rock.

Scientists have shown many UTL dates to be invalid by examining the distribution of isotopes within one crystal. They reanalyze the age using the hypothesis that there were heating events after the rock has formed. They use microscopes on single crystals to figure out what these events are. The events that transpire do not usually correlate with human history records. Creationists will argue that this is circular reasoning.

The big error that Creationists do is ignore studies of cross contamination. Cross contamination is possibly the biggest source of error in dating samples of a relatively low age. Very young samples contaminate the devices. You can't use a mass spectrometer on young samples after very old samples have been examined. The lead in the old samples biases the age determined for the old samples.

Some Creationists will send in young samples to the company, not telling them it is from a recent event. So this sort of ruins it for future customers since the company doesn't know that the old samples are there. You can not use UTL dating to calculate the age of the ash from Mount Saint Helenes, for example, since the ash has an excessive amount of U235 in it.

There are ways to use UTLD for young samples. However, scientific companies usually have a protocol where they avoid dating very young samples. Creationists like to pretend that cross contamination doesn't exist. Scientists and engineers are always studying cross contamination. This is how those limits are determined for radioisotope dating.
 
It isn't just Creationists who don't understand information gain in DNA. I've read a number of science fiction stories that got this wrong. One of the most egregious examples that comes to mind was "Darwin's Radio" by Greg Bear. The method suggested by Bear would be completely impossible.
 
Honest answer: I am not sure.

Assumed answer: If carbon dating functions, and the lower layers are older than the top layers, then carbon dating would say that the bottom layers are X years older than the top layers, and Creationists would need to counter that claim with "carbon dating is nonsense".

Carbon dating only works for 50,000 years back, or so. It is not really much use to prove evolution (except for the 6000 year old universe argument) as to document events during human existence.
 
It isn't just Creationists who don't understand information gain in DNA. I've read a number of science fiction stories that got this wrong. One of the most egregious examples that comes to mind was "Darwin's Radio" by Greg Bear. The method suggested by Bear would be completely impossible.

I read that some time ago. My details may be off, but I believe the principle was Chimera, meaning exchange of DNA between different species via viruses.

That can happen, although not demonstrated in higher life forms, but it is probably a major factor in early evolution.
 

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