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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion - continuation thread

Operation Mockingbird, Ike's MCIC, and W's WMD are a few examples of how it is done.

Complicit media is nothing new either.

Whether or not it was done, I dont know, as I said.

Would it be a surprise if they had exaggerated it and profited thereby?
 
Its not about avoiding your questions, its just that unpacking your exaggerations and strawmen becomes tedious after the first few.
You are JAQing. That gets tedious quickly. Try answering questions instead of trying to hint-without-saying.

ETA: Oops, you did it again:
Operation Mockingbird, Ike's MCIC, and W's WMD are a few examples of how it is done.

Complicit media is nothing new either.

Whether or not it was done, I dont know, as I said.

Would it be a surprise if they had exaggerated it and profited thereby?
 
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Thats my answer. I dont have more than that. Never said I did. Speculating, remember?

I contend it is reasonable to say those are real life examples of how it would be done. Some prefer to differ. As indicated, whether it was actually done is a separate matter.
 
I can see how one or more who'd profit from it might be tempted to spin up a scary threat that doesnt exist, or is not as big as it really is.

Think of the fat kegs of gold one or more without scruples could accrue by inflating that cold war threat. Even by a tad.


Why speculate when we know at least one?

I think that everyone is missing the real conspiracy in the space race. Werner von Braun actually believed, and convinced others, that one nation could conquer the world with Space Technology.


Werner was a very strong believer in preemptive strikes. He was constantly writing about how there would be missiles from the East striking if the U.S. didn't strike first. He was very much interested in the science and technology for civilan applications. He would probably be disgusted with the International Space Station orbiting the planet right now. The Space Station that he envisioned was a weapon that no one could defend against.

This can be confirmed reading his novel about a flight to Mars. Also his articles describing the bad things that could happen to the U.S. if we don't develop missiles first (and use them).

Warner von Braun basically intimidated John F. Kennedy with the 'Red threat'. The Nazi scientists and their families basically lived off the Red Menace. Not only that. He made jobs for Nazi scientists and their families in the USSR.

Werner presented the idea of the United States of Earth. He really had the idea that the United States of America could conquer the world, or at least hold on to it, using a Space Station.

There is little doubt that he presented the same exciting vision to Hitler. Now, Braun tempered down the genocidal implications upon coming to the United States. The United States of Earth was supposed to give everyone in the world a vote. I doubt that Braun told Hitler that everyone in the world would get a vote.

Werner was not a homicidal psychopath, like many of his fellow SS officers. Werner was an opportunist, using every opportunity for personal and family ambition. I don't think that he was an out and out racist, though some of what he writes is tinged with Eugenics ideology. However, he really believed in the Nietze Superman. Hey, there are lots of Jews who think the same way!

There were other military groups that were going to develop space exploration. After Sputnik went up, the Navy got a satellite out. However, that was more on the lines of military intelligence and communication. The idea of huge missiles with payloads dropped on people was very much in his dreams.


The real winners of the Space Race were the Nazi scientists, engineers and technicians and their families. If there weren't real missiles and real rockets being built, and real technology being developed, these people would haven't gotten money and social acceptance in our society.

So I think in the moon conspiracists are wrong in that they haven't followed the money. The money did not go to politicians. The money did not go to 'shadow governments'. It went to the industries that made the parts. It went to the scientists and engineers. The military industrial complex was driving it, not the politicians per se. Yep, it was the Nazis! :)


The entire Space Race, from the standpoint of the German scientists who came to the U.S. and Russia, was a conspiracy to conquer the world Werner was a great Rain Maker, not an ivory tower academic.

Werner wouldn't have approved of a conspiracy to fake the moon landings because it would not be a stable source of money. He and a lot of officials, including Kennedy, probably had this idea of conquering the world. They weren't pretending.

Faking a moon landing would make a 'preemptive' strike on Moscow much harder. The Russians would be so prepared when Apollo touched down. However, the real technology would not be there. Now, actually landing on the moon would be okay because the technology would be in place.
 
Its not about avoiding your questions, its just that unpacking your exaggerations and strawmen becomes tedious after the first few.

That is why I asked questions ....and you ran.

We all understand and you should too, bye
 
Why speculate when we know at least one?

I think that everyone is missing the real conspiracy in the space race. Werner von Braun actually believed, and convinced others, that one nation could conquer the world with Space Technology.


Werner was a very strong believer in preemptive strikes. He was constantly writing about how there would be missiles from the East striking if the U.S. didn't strike first. He was very much interested in the science and technology for civilan applications. He would probably be disgusted with the International Space Station orbiting the planet right now. The Space Station that he envisioned was a weapon that no one could defend against.

This can be confirmed reading his novel about a flight to Mars. Also his articles describing the bad things that could happen to the U.S. if we don't develop missiles first (and use them).

Warner von Braun basically intimidated John F. Kennedy with the 'Red threat'. The Nazi scientists and their families basically lived off the Red Menace. Not only that. He made jobs for Nazi scientists and their families in the USSR.

Werner presented the idea of the United States of Earth. He really had the idea that the United States of America could conquer the world, or at least hold on to it, using a Space Station.

There is little doubt that he presented the same exciting vision to Hitler. Now, Braun tempered down the genocidal implications upon coming to the United States. The United States of Earth was supposed to give everyone in the world a vote. I doubt that Braun told Hitler that everyone in the world would get a vote.

Werner was not a homicidal psychopath, like many of his fellow SS officers. Werner was an opportunist, using every opportunity for personal and family ambition. I don't think that he was an out and out racist, though some of what he writes is tinged with Eugenics ideology. However, he really believed in the Nietze Superman. Hey, there are lots of Jews who think the same way!

There were other military groups that were going to develop space exploration. After Sputnik went up, the Navy got a satellite out. However, that was more on the lines of military intelligence and communication. The idea of huge missiles with payloads dropped on people was very much in his dreams.


The real winners of the Space Race were the Nazi scientists, engineers and technicians and their families. If there weren't real missiles and real rockets being built, and real technology being developed, these people would haven't gotten money and social acceptance in our society.

So I think in the moon conspiracists are wrong in that they haven't followed the money. The money did not go to politicians. The money did not go to 'shadow governments'. It went to the industries that made the parts. It went to the scientists and engineers. The military industrial complex was driving it, not the politicians per se. Yep, it was the Nazis! :)


The entire Space Race, from the standpoint of the German scientists who came to the U.S. and Russia, was a conspiracy to conquer the world Werner was a great Rain Maker, not an ivory tower academic.

Werner wouldn't have approved of a conspiracy to fake the moon landings because it would not be a stable source of money. He and a lot of officials, including Kennedy, probably had this idea of conquering the world. They weren't pretending.

Faking a moon landing would make a 'preemptive' strike on Moscow much harder. The Russians would be so prepared when Apollo touched down. However, the real technology would not be there. Now, actually landing on the moon would be okay because the technology would be in place.

..an interesting idea but the Russians had far fewer Germans and they were certainly not in charge, so why was there a Soviet bid for the Moon?
 
Operation Mockingbird, Ike's MCIC, and W's WMD are a few examples of how it is done.

Complicit media is nothing new either.

Whether or not it was done, I dont know, as I said.

Would it be a surprise if they had exaggerated it and profited thereby?


You still haven't explained how the Soviets/Russians profited from the Cold War. AFAICS, they came out of it very badly!
 
You still haven't explained how the Soviets/Russians profited from the Cold War. AFAICS, they came out of it very badly!


I can only guess that now you are imagining that I said they profited.

Where do you get this stuff?
 
..an interesting idea but the Russians had far fewer Germans and they were certainly not in charge, so why was there a Soviet bid for the Moon?

To keep up with the Americans of course. The Germans in Russia were giving the Russians using the religionCapitalist scare.

Anyway, I suggest there was a lot of quid pro quo among the Nazi scientists. Not a real conspiracy, that has to be analyzed. However, I am sure that the Germans in America felt more kinship for their counterparts than real kinship for the Unite States.

Werner made a big deal about choosing America because it is a 'God fearing country' with 'democratic values'. Not like those atheist socialists. I suspect his counterpart probably presented us as racists and religious fanatics. Not like those great humanitarians and workers of the Soviet Union.

The Nazi scientists didn't seem to make it so far in England. The got to examine Werner's product very close and personal during the war.

And Werner was learning Chinese. Really :) He took his valuable time to broaden his educational I believe that he was doing it for the reason implied in the poem.
 
I can only guess that now you are imagining that I said they profited.

Where do you get this stuff?

Gee, I wonder.

I'd think follow the $.

...Just because you lived thru it all and believed what they told us doesnt mean there was no room for hype for profit and or advantage.
[...]
Nonetheless, I can see how one or more who'd profit from it might be tempted to spin up a scary threat that is not as big as it really is.
[...]
Profit includes gaining power, not just gold. More power can lead to more gold.
 
..an interesting idea but the Russians had far fewer Germans and they were certainly not in charge, so why was there a Soviet bid for the Moon?

Because it was Sergei Korolev's dream.

Korolev was the Soviet's "von Braun" except, of course, he was Russian, not German.

Here is an excellent docudrama about von Braun and Korolev. Anyone who is truly interested in the history of the Soviet/American space race should set aside 90 minutes to watch because it is well worth the time spent....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWumRGO1420
 
Nice try.

Speculations dont count.


For your suggestion to work, namely, that the Cold War was trumped up/exaggerated/faked for the benefit of the MIC, you are going to have to explain how the Soviets benefited from it, because it takes two to tango.

Some years ago there was a movie called "War Games". I was a mostly awful, cheesy movie with a bad plot, poor dialogue and even worse acting, but right at the end of the game, the computer, Joshua, said the one thing that made the most sense in the whole movie...

....nuclear war is a strange game, the only winning move is not to play.

If the western MIC was so hell bent on making a big fat profit from gearing up for global nuclear domination, how would things have gone for them if the Soviets decided not to play?
 
I think that everyone is missing the real conspiracy in the space race. Werner von Braun actually believed, and convinced others, that one nation could conquer the world with Space Technology.

Werner was a very strong believer in preemptive strikes. He was constantly writing about how there would be missiles from the East striking if the U.S. didn't strike first.
There are a few problems with this claim. There was a physicist who worked at Los Alamos named Phillip Morrison. He stated that when the V-2 rocket appeared, his assumption was that it was being developed to deliver a nuclear weapon. Secondly, when Von Braun and his team did come to the US they were put into Project Hermes which only had the goal of duplicating the V-2 technology. He didn't start working on the Redstone missile until they were transferred to Huntsville in 1950. The only other rocket he worked on by 1957 was the derivative Jupiter-C. Von Braun began working at the newly created civilian agency, NASA, which was created from NACA in 1958. The US's first ICBM, Atlas, didn't come out until 1959. The other problem with this claim is that it was Edward Teller who pushed for the development of the hydrogen bomb over the objections of Fermi and Oppenheimer. Because of this friction, they opened a second lab, Lawrence Livermore, in 1958.

Warner von Braun basically intimidated John F. Kennedy with the 'Red threat'. The Nazi scientists and their families basically lived off the Red Menace.
There doesn't seem to be any support for either of these claims. It was Senator Stuart Symington who talked to Kennedy. And, most of the Nazi's brought over in Operation Paperclip worked at NASA Marshall. They had nothing to do with the Atlas, Titan, or XB-70. What they did work on was the Saturn I and Saturn V, neither of which was wanted by the Air Force even though NASA requested that the Air Force also use the Saturn IB in 1965.

Not only that. He made jobs for Nazi scientists and their families in the USSR.
That isn't what one of the V-2 technicians said in an interview. He said that once the USSR was able to build V-2's, they were dropped from the missile program and had no further involvement.

There is little doubt evidence that he presented the same exciting vision to Hitler.
FTFY.

After Sputnik went up, the Navy got a satellite out.
Well, not so much. After Sputnik, the Navy's Vanguard satellite failed to reach orbit on December 6, 1957. The first one was the Army's Explorer 1 rocket launched on a modified Jupiter on January 31, 1958.

The real winners of the Space Race were the Nazi scientists, engineers and technicians and their families.
This claim is almost too ridiculous to respond to. It has been estimated that the economic boost of the space program has been around 6x the cost. This was primarily because of new technology. The number spin-off technologies is much too large for me to list. Secondly, your estimate of direct benefit is pure nonsense. The largest direct beneficiaries were the contractors like Rocketdyne, Grumman, Boeing, North American and many other contractors such as Playtex and Marion.

The entire Space Race, from the standpoint of the German scientists who came to the U.S. and Russia, was a conspiracy to conquer the world Werner was a great Rain Maker, not an ivory tower academic.
You don't seem to be familiar with the vast amounts of money spent to develop and purchase new fighters, bombers, aircraft carriers, and submarines. In addition to aircraft that many have heard of there were also the A-3 Skywarrior, A-5 Vigilante, F-105 Thunderchief, F-111, B-66, B-47, and B-58 designed and built to deliver nuclear ordinance.

Faking a moon landing would make a 'preemptive' strike on Moscow much harder. The Russians would be so prepared when Apollo touched down. However, the real technology would not be there. Now, actually landing on the moon would be okay because the technology would be in place.

Well, this again is not really accurate. The two largest rockets, Saturn I and Saturn V never carried nuclear weapons. The largest rocket wanted by the Air Force was the Titan III. This actually ended up putting the Air Force in a jam when the Challenger accident occurred. They ended up dumping money into the Titan IV which ran $500 million apiece and then its replacement, Delta IV.
 
How do people who deny that the U.S. went to the moon explain the Soviet Union part of the equation?

Most moon hoaxers aren't familiar with technology. When I've brought technical details they typically respond with an unsupported statement of their belief and point me to one of the videos that someone else only slightly more knowledgeable has made. A typical claim is that the US couldn't have reached the moon ahead of the Soviets because they were in the lead. The Soviets were in the lead in terms of lifting capacity from the introduction of the R-7 in May, 1957 until the flight of the Saturn I in October, 1961. In December, 1960, the R-7 derived Vostok-K was able to lift 10,400 lbs to LEO. The Atlas had far less payload at 3,000 lbs. The Titan II was still trailing at 7,900 lbs. The Saturn I delivered 20,000 lbs to LEO.

By 1963, the Voskhod upgrade of Vostok was better at 13,000 lbs but still far behind Saturn I. The rocket that the Soviets introduced to try to catch up was the Proton. Proton first flew in 1965 but the complete rocket, Proton-K didn't fly until 1967. It was intended to lift 43,500 lbs which would have easily beaten the Saturn I. However, the design was too rushed and wasn't very reliable until years later. Meanwhile, Saturn I had already been upgraded to Saturn IB with 46,000 lbs of lifting capacity in February, 1966. Proton-K did later successfully lift Luna-15 which reached the moon in July, 1969. Proton-K also lifted the 40,600 lb Salyut 1 into LEO in April, 1971.

If the US hadn't had the successful Saturn I to test the Saturn V third stage and carry test versions of the C/SM and LM into LEO, the Apollo program would have cost much more and taken years longer.
 
One of the difficulties today with claiming a moon hoax is that Falcon 9 is so similar to Saturn I.

Saturn I: 8 engines of 187,500 lbs thrust, 1.5 million total, gas generator, RP-1/LOX.

Falcon 9 1.2: 9 engines of 165,000 lbs thrust, 1.485 million total, gas generator, RP-1/LOX.

And, it is difficult to claim that the Saturn I engine was impossible since it was only 25% larger than the Atlas engine which was 150,000 lbs thrust.
 
I could be wrong, but I think Bubba is solely talking about the US talking up Soviet capabilities in the late 50s into the 60s. Not that there weren't ICBMs at all.

So no need for any Soviet collusion.

It's pretty well documented that the missile gap was a fiction based on worst case scenarios, brought about largely by Soviet success in the late 50s (Sputnik and their own ICBM tests) and the fear that created in the US. Of course this was relatively short lived as better intelligence showed that in fact throughout most of the 60s it was the US that had the advantage...the Soviets didn't use all their construction bandwidth to produce ICBMs.

Ike's warning about the military industrial complex gaining too much influence was apt at the time, but was largely in response to the Democratic campaign which (IIRC) pointed out the missile gap. It wasn't a pointer to some vast conspiracy behind the scenes.
 
In addition to aircraft that many have heard of there were also the A-3 Skywarrior, A-5 Vigilante, F-105 Thunderchief, F-111, B-66, B-47, and B-58 designed and built to deliver nuclear ordinance..


A recognition guide for those who don't find the names familiar...

Bombers.jpg


... all designed with dropping nukes on the Russkies in mind!!
 

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