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Materialism - Devastator of Scientific Method! / Observer Delusion

The part of the process that happens outside of the body; light has to bounce off an object and be directed towards the eyes.

Well, fair enough. I was meaning more what happens further down the neural pipeline as opposed to the other way, but I didn't state that, so fair enough.

I'm not sure whether the percentage of the neural processing part of the process of seeing is large or small has much to do with the question of whether there is an observer (which seems to be the central sticking point). Can you elucidate?

I mean, that which is in your vision right now... is that simply neural representation? Or are you saying there's something that happens in between, between neural representation and this apparent experience of observation?
 
Do you consider yourself a slave to your heartbeat? To breathing? To your kidney function? To synthesizing liver enzymes and pituitary hormones? To aerobic metabolism in general? To urinating and defecating? To sleeping? To drinking water?

Because I gotta tell you, if you stop any of those for long enough, you won't keep observer status very long then either. At least, not without elaborate substitutes provided by medical science that you would then be even more "slave to."

Does that make your life miserable?

... quoth the memeplex evermore...
 
If there's no non-philosophical difference between a world with an observer and one without it's meaningless.

If there's no non-philosophical difference between a world that doesn't exist outside my mind and one that does it's meaningless.

If there's no non-philosophical difference between a world with an objective reality and one with a flibbity floobily woo reality it's meaningless.

It's easy people. Unless the difference actually makes a difference it's not a difference, it's a distinction without a point

And none of this devastates or even mildly inconveniences science and homeopathy is still stupid garbage. And so is bigfoot. And UFOs. And whatever the next sort of Woo that comes along that the next "XXXXX Philosophy Says Science Can't Work!" thread is a backdoor defense of is stupid garbage as well.

Unfortunately, this is not the argument... and not the case. Stuff does change. Without an actual observer, there is no actual subject, meaning objectivity has no actual existence, it's an artificially induced brain state, engineered into existence through aeons of natural selection, and, most importantly, via illusion.

How phenomenal reality appears might not change, but how it's interpreted certainly can and very likely will.

Having evolutionarily-derived needs and feeling science may offer that you help fulfil them is great. Science may well do that. But it is still useful to understand that you are relying on an artificially induced brain state to both articulate the issue and try and solve it.

And, when we consider science beyond its use at fulfilling survival expectations, and look at science as a means to understand humanity, the world and truth, then you need to understand that objective awareness is artificial and illusory or you really are going nowhere fast. And, quite apart from anything else, eating up tax dollars for no good purpose.
 
'I' is an emergent property of a sufficiently complex brain. Just correlate the perception of 'I' with complecity of brain and brain function.

Unfortunately, for that to work, you are going to need a God! It doesn't matter how complex the brain is, it can't revoke monism. It can't create an observer. The sense of there being one is the best it can manage.

Emergence is regularly trotted out as a kind of catch-all in these situations, like it's some miracle that happens between neural reality and me seeing stuff, which "one day" we'll understand. Fantasy Island, basically.
 
Seconded.

It doesn't seem to make a difference in this thread, those who say 'they' don't exist still keep posting as if they do.

Yes. But they say different things... which is the difference you're asking for.

Joe's argument that nothing changes is wrong. Whole layers of the brain's interpretive analysis of phenomena begins to change. Of course, you can fight it! I do!
 
Having evolutionarily-derived needs and feeling science may offer that you help fulfil them is great. Science may well do that. But it is still useful to understand that you are relying on an artificially induced brain state to both articulate the issue and try and solve it.*

What evolutionary-derived needs are you referring to?

What do you mean by artifically induced brain state?
 
The point is…the difference between woo and not-woo is nothing like as black and white as Joe, and many others, would like to think. As I pointed out earlier, given the degree of ignorance about just about everything, we are all…according to commonly applied skeptic paradigms…woo.

Yes. The belief in God is virtually identical to the belief in an Observer. There's a whopping lack of evidence for either.

Having assigned our conscious world into two categories - "inner" and "outer", so the brain has to similarly split the idea of someone that observes into God and the Observer. One for the so-called outer world and one for the so-called inner.

And, in a sense, the two fight each other! The idea of an observer strengthens the power of science to refute the existence of God. Stuff we need God for gets smaller and smaller as science progresses, based on the objective awareness created by this sense of an Observer. The scientific mindset needs the Observer to exist so that it can carry on taking over from God.

Trouble is, if science starts examining this Observer too closely it itself weakens. Objectivity starts to falter and God comes off the ropes. He sees his chance!

And that's what you'll see in this thread. The hardline skeptics need an Observer to exist so that science can carry on taking over from God and superstition. When the Observer is threatened they react defensively, because the brain knows that if the Observer is threatened then God can get back in.

They react just like religious fundamentalists do.
 
That doesn't appear to make any sense. Can you explain the advantage of the mere sense of being an observer? Can a mouse tell an owl, "leave me alone, I have the sense of being an observer?"

Actually being an observer gives the mouse a chance to hide from the owl, and also to find food and mates.

Natural selection cannot create an actual observer. It's a physical impossibility unless you want to go back to dualism. The brain evolved the capacity to appear as though it is a limited self observing an exterior world because this perspective is so favoured. The behaviour of selfhood is favoured.

The mouse probably doesn't have the brain to articulate itself as an observer. But its brain can I'm sure amplify certain processing streams over others according to it's programming for survival. Thus it behaves as a self observing danger.
 
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
So I'm not gonna bother going any further down this taxonomic rabbit hole. Instead, Nick, I would like you to give us one simple example of how we could apply your new discovery in the real, practical world we live in.

Well, our brains developed the capacity to work with ideas because it helped them fulfil evolutionarily-derived goals. One unfortunate side effect of this is that we can also now ponder on what is true, as opposed to merely something which helps us achieve an end we're programmed to want.

Are you saying truth has to be useful or it has no meaning?

I'm sorry, it appears you are replying to someone else's post. Your reply is not addressing what I asked you. Please read the post again and address what is being asked to you. Let me put it in a different way: Suppose what you propose is true: there is no such thing as an observer. Great. Now what? What difference does your conclusion make, when it comes to actually doing science? Give a concrete example of how your conclusion changes science. Please, no general answers or hypotheticals. Please use a specific example of a scientific experiment, to demonstrate in what way would the results change.
 
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Excellent! How exactly do they differ?

One brain is aware of the illusion. The other isn't. The first has more options because it isn't just locked into objective awareness, reinforcing itself through constant referral to thought. It can utilize objective awareness but it's not dependent on it.

In today's increasingly stress-orientated world, this probably creates a survival advantage.

The second brain will likely react to the notion that there is "something it doesn't have" because it is so locked in its programming loop. It can't step outside objective reality. All it can do is tell itself stories about how objective reality is all there is, and can you prove this or that to me, trying to prove to itself that this illusory and artificial mode of interpreting perception is the only way there is!
 
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One brain is aware of the illusion. The other isn't. The first has more options because it isn't just locked into objective awareness, reinforcing itself through constant referral to thought. It can utilize objective awareness but it's not dependent on it.


How would you tell whether you are living in a world with brains of the first type or brains of the second type?
 
You're saying that behaving as though an observer exists means it exists?


That's quite possible. When air and water vapor molecules behave as though a tornado exists, a tornado exists. An assemblage of parts that behaves like a car must in fact be a car.
 
In the case of the first option, what is perceiving the illusion?

The perceiving self is the illusion, a temporary construct, whose broad definition covers known variations in levels of attention, awareness, and so on, as per brain scans. But, is it an illusion? A recovering brain reboots into the same person, in the form of a continuous personal narrative. Such a construct must rely on of course memory, as well as the current state of what one must suppose is a wide variety of things. So, the physical is sufficient (and necessary) to reboot into the functional and experiential self, with the only oddness being that after sedation or coma, the inner clock hasn't ticked and one is out of sync.

ETA: Which means there is no need to keep on justifying the missing homunculus; it was never gone, and is the construct, dependent on certain conditions to 'be there,' like a whirlpool in a drain.
 
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I mean, that which is in your vision right now... is that simply neural representation? Or are you saying there's something that happens in between, between neural representation and this apparent experience of observation?

Not sure, I'd have to defer to a neurologist to identify or eliminate processing in between the two.

I thought tsig's last point above was good.
 
Natural selection cannot create an actual observer. It's a physical impossibility unless you want to go back to dualism. The brain evolved the capacity to appear as though it is a limited self observing an exterior world because this perspective is so favoured. The behaviour of selfhood is favoured.

The mouse probably doesn't have the brain to articulate itself as an observer. But its brain can I'm sure amplify certain processing streams over others according to it's programming for survival. Thus it behaves as a self observing danger.


Why can't natural selection create and observer? I don't quite understand your reasoning, here. Let me present my thoughts on the symmetry of the observer.

The observer in my imagination has a scale symmetry. The observer is self similar. If you look closely at a physical system like an observer, it is made up of smaller units that has similar features to the observer as a whole.

An observer is a bit like a hologram. The brain works a bit like a hologram. One can partially reconstruct a hologram using one fragment of the hologram.

You are claiming that natural selection can't create a system that has self similarity. You are saying that a brain can't arise from natural selection because each piece has to be built separately by natural selection.

If that is what you are saying, then you are wrong. Random, unconscious nature seems to many systems that are self similar. Any process that makes such systems involves feed back loops. Manganese dendrites have self similar invariance. Our blood vessels have self similarity. Turbulent fluids have self similarity.

Natural selection can be defined as a feed back loop. Yes, systems can be set up like nested dolls. A fractal system can be an observer. Every part of that fractal observer can be an observer.


The mouse is an 'observer' even if it can't articulate itself as an observer. It can observe a light every bit as much as a man observes a light. The memory of the light is repeated in different parts of the mouses brain.

The ability to copy information again and again on a fractal system is part of observation. In quantum Darwinism, the copying process defines the observation. The decoherence comes about exactly because the observer is really plural. Every observer is a fractal collection of smaller observer.

The brain is a typical observer because it is fractal. I think it is more valid to say that the brain may act as more than one observer. I really think one part of the brain can observe another part of the brain.

This is in fact unavoidable because the brain is huge.. The nerve cell is a finite speed of propagation. There is a time delay at each synapse. There are thousands, maybe millions, of miles of nerve cell in the human brain. The distance from one end of the skull to the other is significant. The brain involves separate sections that work in parallel. So 'awareness' has no unity.

Consciousness does not exist on short time scales. This has been studied by neurologists for some time. The processing of a stimulus takes place in layers. People start responding to a stimulus long before they are 'aware' of it.

It takes at least four seconds for someone to be conscious of an impulse stimulus. The spinal cord makes the arm jerk away from a painful event. However, the 'person' isn't 'consciously' aware of it even though the arm has moved away. They won't say they are aware of it until the signal has gone through a large number of synapses.

I propose that what a physicist calls an 'observer' is even less than the spinal cord. A physicists says that the fire is observed even while the nerve impulse is moving toward the spinal cord.

Natural selection made the nerve endings, the spinal cord, and the synapses that appear in the brain. The consciousness is really just the responses in the higher part of the brain. So natural selection made all the observers that are in the brain.

Fractal patterns evolve because these patterns help a gene survive. By survive, I mean that the gene makes copies of itself. Not all the copies are exact. However, the information gets copied again and again. So a collection of genes is an observer in the physics sense.

A population of genes can be an observer in the physics sense. Natural selection is the observation. The same information is copied onto different genes. Genes that have certain information are fit. Unfit genes aren't copied.

So maybe the 'observer' refers to any self similar system of interacting fields or particles.
 
There is no difference between the sense of there being an observer and being an observer.

the sense of being an observer is the thought or feeling "I am an observer", a thought or feeling with content of being an observer;
while being an observer is being an observer.
another example . . . "I am a rich man" vs being a rich man.
So, who's having and aware of the thought "I am the observer"?

Well the observer is, but we can only establish the observer in retrospect with a thought or feeling "I am the observer" - but the thought is not the observer - we can not establish the observer directly, the observer is inferred.
 

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