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Materialism - Devastator of Scientific Method! / Observer Delusion

I did not suggest one could not, or that I could not - - - just that if one equates the thought or feeling "I am an observer" or "the dog sees me" as the observer - that would be a mistake. The observer is not a thought or feeling. Locating and establishing the observer is not so straight-forward.

Well... it's true that the observer is not (solely) a thought or feeling. The thoughts or feelings can certainly be considered evidence of an observer, though, as the result of observations being made and responded to. Understanding the exact nature of what the observer is is not required when it comes to establishing that an observer exists.
 
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How does one establish we are an observer or there is an observer?

The thought "I am experiencing" or "I am Larry" or "I am separate from this experience of this cup of coffee" or "I am walking with my dog and my dog sees me" these thoughts are not the observer - these thoughts do not establish an observer, these thoughts are just other thoughts in the mind, these are thoughts in the mind with a content of being an observer.

"I am a self", "I am an observer" - these are not the observer - these are thoughts. Can you locate and establish a self / observer independent of content?


That's a good question. My own understanding is that "observer" is a role in a narrative. Tell me what someone or something did and I'll tell you whether it acted as an observer. A sufficiently capable organism can be an observer when a narrative that establishes that role is constructed from a series of events.

I pick up the leash; my dog notices and reacts in a relevant consequential way (jumping at the door, because the likely follow-on to my picking up the leash is to take her on a walk, which she desires), and I notice the dog's reaction. There are two overlapping narratives there, one constructed by the dog ahead of the outcome ("he picked up the leash and that means we will now go for a walk"), and another by me that I've just related after the fact. The dog and I are both observers in those narratives.

But suppose I pick up the leash and the dog, in another room, sneezes. That narrative doesn't establish the dog as an observer in this particular case.

Without the ability to construct or comprehend narrative at all, there would be no observers, nor much of anything else apart from particles moving around and interacting. I am an observer not just because I can sense signals and react to them (that's not sufficient) but because I can and do construct and process narrative of it.

Within someone's constructed narrative, I can be an entity that possesses agency and roles (such as "observer"). When it's within my own constructed narrative, that's consciousness.

This of course differs from a definition of observer based on the idea of measurement in QM that's also been discussed in this thread. That would make a photocell that turns on a street light when it's dark an observer. That's a valid way to look at it (at least some of the particles moving around and interacting would be observers as well), but I think mine is closer to the general idea of what an observer is as expressed in common usage.
 
You know, every now and then someone like Nick will come to this forum and open a thread proposing a new "breakthrough" of knowledge that should, in theory, change how we do science. Coincidentally (or not), it always revolves around the topic of materialism and/or consciousness, which is known to be very appealing to people who love to philosophize and play with the endless possibilities of semantics.

The problem is that all your theories and concepts are meaningless if you cannot give us one simple, concise every-day-life example of how your theory would apply in the real world.

So I'm not gonna bother going any further down this taxonomic rabbit hole. Instead, Nick, I would like you to give us one simple example of how we could apply your new discovery in the real, practical world we live in.
Yep, heard the same crap back in the 70's. Nothing new. Didn't change anything then, not going to change anything now.

Far too “DEEP” for me (Dumb Existential Enlightenment Philosophy).
 
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Actually Dan is claiming that.
Dan and I might disagree, then.


Great. So what are the other parts, Paul? Which parts of this process are not neural representation?
The part of the process that happens outside of the body; light has to bounce off an object and be directed towards the eyes.

I'm not sure whether the percentage of the neural processing part of the process of seeing is large or small has much to do with the question of whether there is an observer (which seems to be the central sticking point). Can you elucidate?


And how do they transform processing into an observer?
Can you offer a precise definition of "observer" as you mean it? Then I could take a whack at your question.
 
you may be right, and yet a miserable life indeed, to be a slave continuously spinning a tenuous tall narrative to keep observer status
 
Man these threads follow the same script every time.

Vague accusations that science is flawed somehow. Word salad heaped upon word salad that never actually explain anything. Greater and greater meaningless semantic hair splits and argument through intentionally obtuse definition gaming. Finally the admission that there is some secret Woo that this whole thing is really about. Concluding with "Therefore Goddit."
 
you may be right, and yet a miserable life indeed, to be a slave continuously spinning a tenuous tall narrative to keep observer status

Good thing you* are superior to all that.

*For certain definitions of you
 
you may be right, and yet a miserable life indeed, to be a slave continuously spinning a tenuous tall narrative to keep observer status


Do you consider yourself a slave to your heartbeat? To breathing? To your kidney function? To synthesizing liver enzymes and pituitary hormones? To aerobic metabolism in general? To urinating and defecating? To sleeping? To drinking water?

Because I gotta tell you, if you stop any of those for long enough, you won't keep observer status very long then either. At least, not without elaborate substitutes provided by medical science that you would then be even more "slave to."

Does that make your life miserable?
 
It's amazing what some people seem to think make other people miserable.

I can assure everyone that at no point in my life has not embracing woo, not making needless philosophical distinctions with zero practical application, or not making up elaborate god entity fantasies about myself ever once made me even the slightest bit miserable.
 
There's evidence the arm exists. No one has yet presented one shred of evidence that an observer exists. It's an unexamined assumption.


That there is evidence for your arm is evidence for the existence of an observer.

Scientists believe in an observer, regardless of the lack of evidence, in the same way fundamentalists believe in God.


They "believe" in it, because they are it. You're essentially arguing that there's no evidence for your own existence.
 
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You know, every now and then someone like Nick will come to this forum and open a thread proposing a new "breakthrough" of knowledge that should, in theory, change how we do science. Coincidentally (or not), it always revolves around the topic of materialism and/or consciousness, which is known to be very appealing to people who love to philosophize and play with the endless possibilities of semantics.

I've been on the fence for a while as to whether or not I'm just going to straight up add consciousness, materialism, and a small handful of others to my internal list of Woo words.

I understand fully well that these terms do possess real meanings that actually matter in a lot of contexts, but here they are, as you say, nigh universally used by people with some form of chip on their shoulder about science as a concept who perform all manner of semantic acrobatics in some vein attempt to wring the mysteries of the universe out of silly word games.

It truly is amazing, almost BLAARG level, how closely every new iteration of this follows the same script.
 
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that's my point - your account that the observer as a running narrative or capacity to do so misses the mark - - - the observer is more organic and reality-based than based on a construed fantasy.
 
that's my point - your account that the observer as a running narrative or capacity to do so misses the mark - - - the observer is more organic and reality-based than based on a construed fantasy.


Of course it is…which is one of Nick227’s complaints. Science has no capacity to empirically adjudicate it. As Nick227 quite accurately points out…this ‘observer’ thing does not exist in any way that science has the ability to recognize, thus…pfffft…it can be dispensed with. Which is also why we have Joe steaming and spitting that he just can’t have such vague woo-oriented stuff floating around in his pristine universe. Off to the scrap heap with it.

Joe doesn’t seem to have given his philosophy much thought though….which, I suppose, should come as no surprise. He is deeply offended at the effrontery of Nick227’s insistence that (his) individual identity is a fundamentally flawed concept…and yet he never fails to vociferously support the epistemic basis of the conclusion.

Can’t have it both ways Joe…but in the world of amateur skepticism, I guess its ok. Tut tut…and all that.
 
Of course it is…which is one of Nick227’s complaints. Science has no capacity to empirically adjudicate it. As Nick227 quite accurately points out…this ‘observer’ thing does not exist in any way that science has the ability to recognize, thus…pfffft…it can be dispensed with.

I beg to differ. The derived brain function, the observer (and the implied self), is a falsifiable theory. The tools for falsifying it are not currently available to us, but we can describe what they should be. I'll refrain from describing them just here, since they depend somewhat on how exactly we define the observer, but Nick has already hinted at some in his gloating about what science can't (currently) do, etc.


The irrefutable fact is that we all constantly perform something that is indistinguishable from observing, so bickering the finer semantic points are perhaps best left to those so enclined.

Hans
 
The irrefutable fact is that we all constantly perform something that is indistinguishable from observing, so bickering the finer semantic points are perhaps best left to those so enclined.


Perhaps they can also consider the distinction between materialism and methodological naturalism.
 
that's my point - your account that the observer as a running narrative or capacity to do so misses the mark - - - the observer is more organic and reality-based than based on a construed fantasy.


Who said the running narrative is a fantasy? Construing nothing but fantasy would have no survival benefit to an evolving species and therefore would not evolve.

I'll again use the analogy to visual processing. Your eye does not receive, from the environment, any direct representation of (for instance) the arrangement of the furniture in the three-dimensional space of the room you're standing in. It receives an ever-changing (as the eye moves) map of brighter and darker areas within a limited field, with some patchy color information mixed in. The rest—regions, patterns, edges, surfaces, shapes, distances, faces, objects in space, non-movement, movement—is filled in via neural computation.

But that doesn't mean the objects and people in the room aren't really there. There would be no advantage, nothing worth the energy expended, in constantly constructing perceptions that don't reflect the material reality within which threats and opportunities occur. A given perceived arrangement of objects in space could be all or part fantasy—you might, for instance, really be looking at computer graphics on a monitor screen, or a forced-perspective diorama—but in general the method of computed construction is reliable. And when it is unreliable, it is usually unreliable in ways that reflect its evolutionary value, for example being more likely to perceive a face that isn't really there than to fail to notice a face that is.

The constructed narrative of conscious experience is very similar in all respects. The vast numbers of distinct sensory impressions, muscle movements, plans and revisions of plans, and memory associations that occur during routine activities are, via prodigious acts of neural computation, resolved into comprehensible experiences: "I drove to the plaza for lunch, had cream of mushroom soup and half a pastrami sandwich at the salad place, noticed Cheryl from customer relations at the next table, said Hi." Such a narrative could be a fantasy (the one I just wrote is, which is what fiction writers do), but normally those narratives represent actual reality, summarized in a more useful way.

"More useful" is the key. What chance would you have going through life with only direct experience: "at the 345 millisecond mark, began a slight contraction of the left gastrocnemius muscle (more or less simultaneously with a hundred other ongoing minor muscle movements including those involved in a respiratory inhale that's now 34% complete) in response to the slight increase in yellow coloration that began impinging on the right visual field 23 milliseconds before..." With narrative understanding we can recognize people and things, perceive and predict cause and effect, make plans. We can know that edible sandwiches are available some distance away, we can know not to try to punch or lick Cheryl, we can understand "turn left" in the car without enumerating the necessary sensory inputs and muscle signals required to execute it successfully.

Drunk people, whose consciousness (ability to construct usefully accurate new narrative) is impaired, might fail those same tests. And unconscious people suck at doing pretty much everything. That's because the construed narrative is useful, and its very usefulness demonstrates that it is not fantasy but a handle on reality.
 
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If there's no non-philosophical difference between a world with an observer and one without it's meaningless.

If there's no non-philosophical difference between a world that doesn't exist outside my mind and one that does it's meaningless.

If there's no non-philosophical difference between a world with an objective reality and one with a flibbity floobily woo reality it's meaningless.

It's easy people. Unless the difference actually makes a difference it's not a difference, it's a distinction without a point

And none of this devastates or even mildly inconveniences science and homeopathy is still stupid garbage. And so is bigfoot. And UFOs. And whatever the next sort of Woo that comes along that the next "XXXXX Philosophy Says Science Can't Work!" thread is a backdoor defense of is stupid garbage as well.
 
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I beg to differ. The derived brain function, the observer (and the implied self), is a falsifiable theory. The tools for falsifying it are not currently available to us, but we can describe what they should be. I'll refrain from describing them just here, since they depend somewhat on how exactly we define the observer, but Nick has already hinted at some in his gloating about what science can't (currently) do, etc.


That’s interesting. I suppose anything…all the way up to God, could be falsified IF we had the right tools. But…not only are they not available to us, we do not have an empirically defined condition to begin with (‘observer’).

So I guess your claim is just about worthless. We have neither an empirically quantifiable condition to falsify nor do we have the necessary tools available.

Of course, I’m not arguing that there does not exist an ‘I’. I’m just pointing out that there is no way to empirically adjudicate what this ‘I’ thing actually is. Every representation that we utilize in any form anywhere is highly conditional. IOW…based on assumptions that there is no way to confirm (other than subjectively of course...which is exactly what Nick227 makes the mistake of dismissing).

The irrefutable fact is that we all constantly perform something that is indistinguishable from observing, so bickering the finer semantic points are perhaps best left to those so enclined.


They’re hardly merely ‘finer semantic points’ when it is these very same semantic points that differentiate the basic ingredients of being. As things currently stand, there doesn’t exist anything remotely resembling an accurate representation of this condition… which is useful to remember when arguing that the ‘finer semantic points’ are so trivial.

It's easy people. Unless the difference actually makes a difference it's not a difference, it's a distinction without a point


…but Joe, it does make a difference. Some people can comprehend the difference. You do not appear to be one of them. Perhaps you should take some time off from your woo-bashing-pulpit and investigate whether or not that matters.
 
…but Joe, it does make a difference. Some people can comprehend the difference. You do not appear to be one of them. Perhaps you should take some time off from your woo-bashing-pulpit and investigate whether or not that matters.


Can you explain what this difference is?
 
That’s interesting. I suppose anything…all the way up to God, could be falsified IF we had the right tools.

No. Any sensible definition of God will be supernatural, and thus unfalsifiable.

But…not only are they not available to us, we do not have an empirically defined condition to begin with (‘observer’).

We can have one, though. Yours, and Nick's may not be falsifiable (I don't know either), but it is not hard at all to make one. Myriad's, for instance, is quite falsifiable.

Of course, I’m not arguing that there does not exist an ‘I’. I’m just pointing out that there is no way to empirically adjudicate what this ‘I’ thing actually is.

Yes there is. The materialist position is falsifiable: 'I' is an emergent property of a sufficiently complex brain. Just correlate the perception of 'I' with complecity of brain and brain function.

Every representation that we utilize in any form anywhere is highly conditional.

Duh. Of course a representation is conditional. What else should it be?

They’re hardly merely ‘finer semantic points’ when it is these very same semantic points that differentiate the basic ingredients of being. As things currently stand, there doesn’t exist anything remotely resembling an accurate representation of this condition… which is useful to remember when arguing that the ‘finer semantic points’ are so trivial.

I didn't say they were trivial, as in simple. They are quite complex. However, they are not very important, till such time as we are able to investigate them objectively. To put is a bit simply: We know the answer, but the question still eludes us.

Hans
 

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