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Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I'm not so sure about that Bagels. I'm glad for both Amanda and RAFFAELE it went the other way.

The case was unsustainable. If Italy was too dysfunctional to end it something else would have. There were a lot of steps between Nencini and extradition back into a prison cell. Too many steps to make it.
 
The case was unsustainable. If Italy was too dysfunctional to end it something else would have. There were a lot of steps between Nencini and extradition back into a prison cell. Too many steps to make it.

The case was HORRIBLE ! A total miscarriage of justice. But the extradition process is usually a straight forward process with not much room to avoid extradition outside of political intervention. I can easily see a long drawn out process where Amanda is incarcerated waiting for an outcome. Not exactly a prison, But it sure ain't free.
 
The case was HORRIBLE ! A total miscarriage of justice. But the extradition process is usually a straight forward process with not much room to avoid extradition outside of political intervention. I can easily see a long drawn out process where Amanda is incarcerated waiting for an outcome. Not exactly a prison, But it sure ain't free.

They usually don't try to extradite college girls for a crime transparently committed by the town burglar based on a statement they beat out of her. The US State Department cables showed they considered the matter closed with Hellmann. And why wouldn't they? Hellmann corrected the mistake of Massei. The PGP think Hellmann was an anomaly on the path to justice. His court was the inevitability of history correcting itself. It was the Cheiffi court throwing a monkey wrench into the natural path that deviated from the standard course. In Italy where no blood means blood and witnesses that saw nothing saw everything it worked temporarily, but I really doubt it could have sustained itself. You can't hold something like that up forever.
 
They usually don't try to extradite college girls for a crime transparently committed by the town burglar based on a statement they beat out of her. The US State Department cables showed they considered the matter closed with Hellmann. And why wouldn't they? Hellmann corrected the mistake of Massei. The PGP think Hellmann was an anomaly on the path to justice. His court was the inevitability of history correcting itself. It was the Cheiffi court throwing a monkey wrench into the natural path that deviated from the standard course. In Italy where no blood means blood and witnesses that saw nothing saw everything it worked temporarily, but I really doubt it could have sustained itself. You can't hold something like that up forever.

I don't know Bagels. I don't think in the end Amanda would have been extradited. Or if Italy would have asked. I do know that if they had the process almost always results in the person arrested and put in a Federal Detention facility until the judges or the Secretary of State, the President or the courts decide what to do.
 
I don't know Bagels. I don't think in the end Amanda would have been extradited. Or if Italy would have asked. I do know that if they had the process almost always results in the person arrested and put in a Federal Detention facility until the judges or the Secretary of State, the President or the courts decide what to do.

I thought there was going to be a fight to keep her from being extradited. Because the case was simply so bad, I think the government would have likely used some kind of monitoring until they could find a way to make the case go away though.
 
here is the original - Un iter obiettivamente ondivago, le cui oscillazioni sono, però, la risultante anche
di clamorose defaillances o 'amnesie" investigative e di colpevoli omissioni di attività
d'indagine, che, ove poste in essere, avrebbero, con ogni probabilità, consentito, sin
da subito, di delineare un quadro, se non di certezza, quanto meno di tranquillante
affidabilità, nella prospettiva vuoi della cotpevolezza vuoi dell'estraneità degli odierni
l-
i ricorrenti. Un siffatto scenario, intrinsecamente contraddittorio, costituisce, già in sé,
un primo, eloquente, segnale di un insieme probatorio tutt'altro che contrassegnato da
evidenza oltre il ragionevole dubbio.


Strangely the "or innocent" doesn't seem to be there.

It doesn't seem to be in any of the Italian coverage either.

Perhaps an Italian speaker could translate this short section 4.

The questions are (1) what is the translation of dell'estraneita in context and (2) what are the differences in English (or perhaps in one's personal philosophy) between a) not guilty (of the crime), b) innocent (of the crime), c) not involved (in the crime), d) foreign (to the crime), e) alien* (to the crime) which may be some of the choices for the translation.

BTW, since in an earlier post you expressed concerns about someone - perhaps yourself - allegedly owing taxes to some other country, and being subject possibly to a court judgment to pay, I include here a cite for your benefit:

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Pages/treaties.aspx

There are many pages of tax treaties with many countries and the US dealing with issues of avoiding double taxation and assuring non-evasion of taxes.

* This translation (e) alien to the crime is an ETA. The root meaning of dell'estraneita is apparently close to "foreignness" or "alienness".

Grinder,
Here is a little glossary I made up using Google translate.
One thing to remember about these Italian court motivation reports is that there is a difference between how most of the Italian judges express themselves and how most US or maybe UK judges express themselves. In the US, the language emphasis is "just the facts" while in Italy, the judge seeks to show a perhaps poetic or sophisticated command of Italian.

Each English word in the first list below is followed by its Google translate Italian equivalent in the second list below. Note that "innocent" = "innocente".

innocent
guilty
not guilty
stranger
alien
foreign
foreignness
alienness
strangeness
involved
not involved

innocente
colpevole
non colpevole
sconosciuto
alieno
straniera
estraneità
estraneità
stranezza
coinvolti
non coinvolto
 
I thought there was going to be a fight to keep her from being extradited. Because the case was simply so bad, I think the government would have likely used some kind of monitoring until they could find a way to make the case go away though.

I'm sure there would have been and you could be right.But the usual process doesn't grant that. But there is NOTHING usual about this case.
 
The trouble is that there are just so many unusual cases.

I spent a lot of time discussing the possible extradition of Amanda, often with lawyers and scanning any legal commentary. There seemed to be no consensus as to what would happen in this case. But there was one consensus and that fighting extradition was an upstream battle with the odds against anyone attempting it.
 
Thanks for your post, which is an illustration of manifest illogic. I will give an example of your illogic:

You are assuming that "decisive" in (d) applies to the opinion of the judge in the lower court. But the judge in the court has not admitted the evidence because in his opinion it was not "decisive" or of particular value. However, the appeal claims that that evidence would be decisive and should have been admitted. The CSC must make a decision about the weight of that piece of evidence and whether it should have been admitted.

Here is the full text (in English translation) of CPP Art. 606.1 (d), which will help ISF readers form their own opinion on this matter:

1. The appeal to the Court of Cassation may be lodged if it is based on the following arguments:
.....
(d) decisive evidence is not gathered, when a party has requested its gathering also during the trial evidentiary hearing, exclusively in the cases provided for in Article 495, paragraph 2;
....

Now to understand CPP Art. 606.1 (d) we need to look at the text of CPP Art. 495.2, which in English translation is as follows:

2. The accused has the right to the admission of pieces of evidence in his defense on the facts in issue presented against him. The Public Prosecutor has the same right regarding the pieces of evidence against the accused on the facts in issue presented in defence of the accused.
_____

To sum up, your presentation of the meaning of CPP Art. 606.1 (d) is shown to be incorrect when the actual full text of that law, and its reference law, are examined.

Numbers, letter e) specifies that the SC can assess only the judge's report plus only the specific pieces of trial documentation mentioned in the reason for appeal and attached to the file.
Thus, they do not assess the evidence.
They don't have the evidence.
They only have small, specific bits of trial documentation at best.

Assessing evidence is a different concept in procedure. Implies the judge's right of calling witnesses, interrogate them, order tests, hear cross questionings and confrontation, and access the whole file, including all trial files and non-written material deposited with the court.
An assessment about whether piece of evidence could be decisive does not go though anything of that kind. Would be based on summary presentation of one party and counter argument. They won't see almost anything about the trial file. Assessment of evidence is a concept out of reach for SC.
 
The questions are (1) what is the translation of dell'estraneita in context and (2) what are the differences in English (or perhaps in one's personal philosophy) between a) not guilty (of the crime), b) innocent (of the crime), c) not involved (in the crime), d) foreign (to the crime), e) alien* (to the crime) which may be some of the choices for the translation.

BTW, since in an earlier post you expressed concerns about someone - perhaps yourself - allegedly owing taxes to some other country, and being subject possibly to a court judgment to pay, I include here a cite for your benefit:

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Pages/treaties.aspx

There are many pages of tax treaties with many countries and the US dealing with issues of avoiding double taxation and assuring non-evasion of taxes.

* This translation (e) alien to the crime is an ETA. The root meaning of dell'estraneita is apparently close to "foreignness" or "alienness".

Estraneità in a legal context means non-involvement. It's a more neutral word than "innocence", devoid of moral value.
 
The lead forensic scientist working the case says if TMB is negative it's not blood. You literally have nothing else to offer. That's case closed.

You are making up when you talk about what I have.
I have actually read and shared sufficient scientific literature and discussed at length about the point.
TMB less specific and less sensitive than luminol; exactly same mechanism of reaction, reacts at same false positives; no known substance exists that is positive to luminol and negative to TMB. Moreover, TMB test I indirect, that means not sone on the stain directly but from a sample, thus could be on a much smaller amount or much higher dilution.
The leading scientist said in 2008 that they made further tests on those stains(without specifying the type of tests) but noted that those usually yield negative results on latent stains.
 
You are making up when you talk about what I have.
I have actually read and shared sufficient scientific literature and discussed at length about the point.
TMB less specific and less sensitive than luminol; exactly same mechanism of reaction, reacts at same false positives; no known substance exists that is positive to luminol and negative to TMB. Moreover, TMB test I indirect, that means not sone on the stain directly but from a sample, thus could be on a much smaller amount or much higher dilution.
The leading scientist said in 2008 that they made further tests on those stains(without specifying the type of tests) but noted that those usually yield negative results on latent stains.

Machiavelli you are constantly distorting what they say. You are also ignoring what Stefanoni said on the stand. Don't make me get Chris Halkides to come on and make you look like a fool.

Without a confirmatory test the positive Luminol and the negative TMB test really add up to ZERO.
 
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I spent a lot of time discussing the possible extradition of Amanda, often with lawyers and scanning any legal commentary. There seemed to be no consensus as to what would happen in this case. But there was one consensus and that fighting extradition was an upstream battle with the odds against anyone attempting it.

If it had come down to it, it would have been very important for everybody possible to write to the Secretary of State. . . .Not emails but actual physical letters.

Now that the case is settled, I am here just to talk with you guys more or less.
 
If it had come down to it, it would have been very important for everybody possible to write to the Secretary of State. . . .Not emails but actual physical letters.

Now that the case is settled, I am here just to talk with you guys more or less.

Me too. I'm damn glad I don't have to write those letters. Merry Christmas .
 
Now, repeat after me:
On page 45, and on page 49 (9.4.2) the text says:
It is a proven fact in the trial that Amanda Knox was in the house.
It is certain that she was in the house.

Even in the English translation your interpretatation is incorrect. Why do you think the words "...in the trial..." exist.

You do know it was a proven fact the the world was the centre of the universe IN THE TRIAL of Galileo. And it's true. It was a proven fact in the trial......but it wasn't a fact.

You are at liberty to believe the world is central to the universe and cite "court" documents as proof.

The "proven fact" is a function of the operation of the court and has nothing to do with empirical facts.

It. Is. The. Way. The. Courts. Work!!!
 
Numbers, letter e) specifies that the SC can assess only the judge's report plus only the specific pieces of trial documentation mentioned in the reason for appeal and attached to the file.
Thus, they do not assess the evidence.
They don't have the evidence.
They only have small, specific bits of trial documentation at best.

Assessing evidence is a different concept in procedure. Implies the judge's right of calling witnesses, interrogate them, order tests, hear cross questionings and confrontation, and access the whole file, including all trial files and non-written material deposited with the court.
An assessment about whether piece of evidence could be decisive does not go though anything of that kind. Would be based on summary presentation of one party and counter argument. They won't see almost anything about the trial file. Assessment of evidence is a concept out of reach for SC.

Thanks again for a post that is an example of manifest illogic. As in my earlier post where I discussed in some detail CPP Art. 606.1 (d), I will here show the full text (in English translation) of CPP Art. 606.1 (e) and provide an explanation of what it means, to help any interested readers.

1. The appeal to the Court of Cassation may be lodged if it is based on the following arguments:
....
(e) the grounds of the judgment are lacking, contradictory or manifestly illogical, when the defect results from the text of the appeal decision or from other documents of the proceedings specified in the arguments for the appeal to the Court of Cassation.
_____
Some explanation:
1. The grounds of the judgment means the interpretation of the evidence, which must include the evidence itself, insofar as the appeal has specified. There is certainly no general review of the grounds (the interpretation of evidence and the evidence) unless that is what the appeal requests; only those parts of the grounds appealed in the accused's and/or the prosecution's arguments for appeal are reviewed by the CSC.

2. The grounds of judgment itself must be that contained in the motivation report or any similar document(s) produced by the lower court and the CSC review is limited as stated in 1.

3. The evidence that can be reviewed as contributing to the grounds of judgment (limited as stated in 2) is limited to that which is discussed or included in the trial documentation, such as the testimony of witnesses and technical reports or any other relevant document of the proceedings; obviously, the CSC panel would not be able to observe the facial expressions or tones of voice of the witnesses (unless there were recordings). It is important to understand that testimony is evidence, just as are documents such as, for example, reports of forensic tests, photographs, and charts or graphs.

4. The CSC assess or reviews the relevant (as stated in 1) grounds and associated evidence based upon the documents and records of the lower court documentation. No one has claimed that the CSC conducts a de novo trial by, for example, calling witnesses or ordering tests; the CSC acts as an appeal court, evaluating (= assessing, = reviewing) the contents of the documents and records of the lower court that are relevant to the arguments raised in the appeals of the accused and/or prosecution.

5. One should also recall that the CSC considers other appeal arguments, such as those falling under CPP Art. 606.1 (b) and (c), that is, (b) failure of the lower court to comply with or misapplication of criminal law or other legal rules, and (c) failure of the lower court to comply with procedural rules established under penalty of nullity, exclusion of evidence, inadmissibility or expiry.

6. One should also note that, according to CPP Art. 609.2, "the Court of Cassation shall also decide on issues raised ex officio at any stage and instance of the proceedings and on those issues which could not have been raised at the appeal stage".
 
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Estraneità in a legal context means non-involvement. It's a more neutral word than "innocence", devoid of moral value.

Not in English. Anyone not involved in a crime is innocent of committing that crime. It means that that person "had nothing to do with" that crime. See the example below.


From: http://dictionary.reverso.net/italian-english/estraneita/forced
estraneità sf inv
(non implicazione) ha tentato di dimostrare la propria estraneità alla faccenda
he tried to prove that he had nothing to do with it, he tried to prove that he was not involved in the matter
 
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What? That I believe that a negative TMB test means it's not blood? That's not illogical at all.

Machiavelli has constantly claimed TMB can give false negatives and the negative results did not disprove the footprints were made in blood. If this was the case, why did the prosecution never present this argument? Surely if the notion TMB can give TMB negative results, the prosecution would have used this argument. Why did the prosecution never present scientific literature backing the claim TMB can give negative results? If TMB had a high probability of false negatives, why did Stefanoni lie about the negative TMB results? Why did Nencini avoid mentioning the negative TMB results in his motivation report?
 
You are making up when you talk about what I have.
I have actually read and shared sufficient scientific literature and discussed at length about the point.
TMB less specific and less sensitive than luminol; exactly same mechanism of reaction, reacts at same false positives; no known substance exists that is positive to luminol and negative to TMB. Moreover, TMB test I indirect, that means not sone on the stain directly but from a sample, thus could be on a much smaller amount or much higher dilution.
The leading scientist said in 2008 that they made further tests on those stains(without specifying the type of tests) but noted that those usually yield negative results on latent stains.

So what you're saying is when the leading scientist said negative TMB means it's not blood, that was in a different context. But in the context where blood is necessary to maintain a theory of guilt against the students, negative TMB means blood. Thanks, I think I understand. :D
 
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