Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[bagels]

You listed out how the british cops would have produced evidence that the ILE didn't because they bungled the case. You said it just like Marasca.

Where are the videos of Amanda and Raf running all over the place?

Vixen's hypothetical has shone the light on yet another of the astonishing coincidences in this case.

Rudy is coincidentally hanging out by the cottage (on CCTV) before Amanda knows she'll be free from work obligations to recruit him for murder.

Amanda later coincidentally stages a eerily similar break-in to a previous one Rudy is connected to by criminal evidence.

And now we're reminded the police wrongly arrest Amanda and her boss for murder based on a misunderstanding of a text exchange with her boss but by pure coincidence she happens to turn out to be the correct suspect anyway once they gather the "rest" of the evidence.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, Mr Tesla, you claim to be a telecommunications expert, so you tell us.

I already did...many times on this very forum. But I noticed that others did a competent job of exposing your ignorance on the subject while I took a vacation.

 

[acbytesla]

It was Amanda's lamp.

So?

 

[Grinder]

Vixen's hypothetical has shone the light on yet another of the astonishing coincidences in this case.

Rudy is coincidentally hanging out by the cottage (on CCTV) before Amanda knows she'll be free from work obligations to recruit him for murder.

Amanda later coincidentally stages a eerily similar break-in to a previous one Rudy is connected to by criminal evidence.

And now we're reminded the police wrongly arrest Amanda and her boss for murder based on a misunderstanding of a text exchange with her boss but by pure coincidence she happens to turn out to be the correct suspect anyway once they gather the "rest" of the evidence.

If only a PGP would just admit the rotten parts of the investigation and the case, a conversation could progress.

First admit that the forensic were at best botched. Samples taken from the shared sink at a minimum needed to be dabbed and not dragged. The witnesses that knew nothing the week of the crime can't be credible months later especially if they get significant details wrong, such as the date.

The LCN DNA work can't be used because they didn't do it properly and didn't have a lab that could do it without risk of contamination.

Evidence gathered 45 days later is fine if it is clean. They need to explain where the contamination came from, that is the CSI need to explain where those other pieces of DNA came from.

Now one of the dumbest assertions is that Amanda was the first to bring up sex in her Nov. 5th testimony

By Chris Hastings and Jasper Copping in Perugia12:01AM GMT 04 Nov 2007A British student murdered in Italy may have invited the killer into her home, police investigating her death now believe.
ADVERTISING

Officers think Meredith Kercher, 21, left three flatmates to go home alone after watching a film on the night she was murdered because she had arranged to see a man she had met the previous night at a Hallowe'en party.

Miss Kercher, whose parents live in Coulsden, Surrey, was a student at Leeds University on a foreign exchange trip in Perugia, central Italy.

Police said last night there were indications that she had sex before she was stabbed in the neck. Her attacker locked the bedroom door before fleeing the house and dumping her two mobile phones in a nearby garden.

 

[acbytesla]

For a start, we are one of the most cctv-ed countries in the world. There would be at least eight to thirty different CCTV shots outside the house at various locations. The forensics squad would have systematically (from my own experience) taken samples from the broken window and surrounds for fingerprints. They'd examine the trajectories of the broken pane, inwards, or outwards, etc.

It's a moot point.

There were 4 CCTV cameras between Raffaele's and the cottage and not one of them recorded images of Amanda or Raffaele that evening. They did come up with 2 of Rudy however. Are you saying that in the UK they would have convicted Amanda and Raffaele based on the absence of probative evidence?

 

[bagels]

If only a PGP would just admit the rotten parts of the investigation and the case, a conversation could progress.

First admit that the forensic were at best botched. Samples taken from the shared sink at a minimum needed to be dabbed and not dragged. The witnesses that knew nothing the week of the crime can't be credible months later especially if they get significant details wrong, such as the date.

The LCN DNA work can't be used because they didn't do it properly and didn't have a lab that could do it without risk of contamination.

Evidence gathered 45 days later is fine if it is clean. They need to explain where the contamination came from, that is the CSI need to explain where those other pieces of DNA came from.

Now one of the dumbest assertions is that Amanda was the first to bring up sex in her Nov. 5th testimony

By Chris Hastings and Jasper Copping in Perugia12:01AM GMT 04 Nov 2007A British student murdered in Italy may have invited the killer into her home, police investigating her death now believe.
ADVERTISING

Officers think Meredith Kercher, 21, left three flatmates to go home alone after watching a film on the night she was murdered because she had arranged to see a man she had met the previous night at a Hallowe'en party.

Miss Kercher, whose parents live in Coulsden, Surrey, was a student at Leeds University on a foreign exchange trip in Perugia, central Italy.

Police said last night there were indications that she had sex before she was stabbed in the neck. Her attacker locked the bedroom door before fleeing the house and dumping her two mobile phones in a nearby garden.

The universal refusal among the PGP to concede any major weakness or problems in the investigation is for me by far the most fascinating aspect of this entire case and why I still follow it years after I became firmly comfortable with my conclusions about what happened. I've never seen any other case like this. Even the hardcore Ramsey PGP (who think one or more family members of JonBenet did it - a case I'll always be on the fence about) admit the police screwed up.

It's a widely held belief in the PGP community that many people are sitting in US jails on less evidence. Scott Peterson is a widely touted exampled. Well Scott Peterson had a strong motive. Scott Peterson was proven to be at the bay where the body was dumped at the time it was dumped. Scott Peterson freely lied about being at the bay where the body was dumped before anyone knew there was a murder. And, most importantly, there weren't 20 bloody footprints and a bloody handprint in Scott and Laci's home belonging to a known criminal. The comparison is absurd.

I brought this up before but if I were PGP or the prosecution I would accept that my only solid link in this case to Knox would be through the direct eye witness to the murder - Rudy Guede. If the case isn't based around Rudy's testimony, there is no case IMO. Neither the prosecution nor the PGP seem interested in Rudy testifying and I always wonder if it's a psychological guard, they know he has nothing useful to say.

 

[Grinder]

The universal refusal among the PGP to concede any major weakness or problems in the investigation is for me by far the most fascinating aspect of this entire case and why I still follow it years after I became firmly comfortable with my conclusions about what happened. I've never seen any other case like this. Even the hardcore Ramsey PGP (who think one or more family members of JonBenet did it - a case I'll always be on the fence about) admit the police screwed up.

It's a widely held belief in the PGP community that many people are sitting in US jails on less evidence. Scott Peterson is a widely touted exampled. Well Scott Peterson had a strong motive. Scott Peterson was proven to be at the bay where the body was dumped at the time it was dumped. Scott Peterson freely lied about being at the bay where the body was dumped before anyone knew there was a murder. And, most importantly, there weren't 20 bloody footprints and a bloody handprint in Scott and Laci's home belonging to a known criminal. The comparison is absurd.

I brought this up before but if I were PGP or the prosecution I would accept that my only solid link in this case to Knox would be through the direct eye witness to the murder - Rudy Guede. If the case isn't based around Rudy's testimony, there is no case IMO. Neither the prosecution nor the PGP seem interested in Rudy testifying and I always wonder if it's a psychological guard, they know he has nothing useful to say.

Agreed about the strangeness of the PGP not being willing to admit basically any mistakes, wrongdoing or weakness of witnesses. The strongest evidence for me is Raf. His "nothing was stolen", "I told you bs" "I'm not sure if Amanda was with me" and his interview with Mansey. I still find it difficult to understand guilty or innocent how the memory of the murder night could be so vague.

The "hard" evidence is so compromised and the early intercepted Skype call pretty much excluded Amanda.

 

[Vixen]

Well something must make them strongly believe a female was responsible for the apparent rape stabbing with male DNA in the victim's genitals. Presumably UK coppers would have been smart enough to know Amanda worked for a local bartender and when he texted her not to come in that night she replied with a customary goodbye "Ok, cya later." That's not really enough to get the ball rolling is it? We still haven't gotten from the male DNA to Amanda the killer. I'm still confused.

In my experience, there is just no point in answering a hypothetical question.

 

[Vixen]

If Laura's room was next to Meredith's then it would have been her lamp. Would she then be a suspect? If whoever placed the lamp had taken it from Laura's room would she be a suspect?

There is no evidence at all as to who placed it in Meredith's room. Since Amanda's room was the closest Rudi, the cops, or Steffi would have just grabbed it.

Got it now?

Amanda concealed from the police it was missing and was also evasive with the court.

 

[Vixen]

Cleaning a room of DNA, such that two of three sets of it are eliminated? Let's rule in/rule out that one first just to be clear.

Otherwise - without any lamp forensics (prints, etc.) who who'd had access to the cottage until, say, 2pm on the 2nd might have needed to grab a lamp for illumination, such that they did not step fully into the room so as not to contaminate it? Obviously Amanda did not bring her forensic presence into the room, so if it was in turn not found on the lamp, what does that suggest?

Well, you're postulating that Rudy climbed into a second floor broken glass window with nary a trace.

So, "Bill", whose was the ladies size 37 bloodoutlined footprint found in the murder room, the fair hair in Mez' hand and ditto across the top of Mez bag placed contrivedly on the bed?

 

[Vixen]

Vixen's hypothetical has shone the light on yet another of the astonishing coincidences in this case.

Rudy is coincidentally hanging out by the cottage (on CCTV) before Amanda knows she'll be free from work obligations to recruit him for murder.

Amanda later coincidentally stages a eerily similar break-in to a previous one Rudy is connected to by criminal evidence.

And now we're reminded the police wrongly arrest Amanda and her boss for murder based on a misunderstanding of a text exchange with her boss but by pure coincidence she happens to turn out to be the correct suspect anyway once they gather the "rest" of the evidence.

Not really a coincidence, as the basketball court was where drug dealing took place.

Staging a burglary is not rocket science, yet Amanda and Raff couldn't get it right, despite previous practice by Amanda.

 

[Vixen]

You listed out how the british cops would have produced evidence that the ILE didn't because they bungled the case. You said it just like Marasca.

Where are the videos of Amanda and Raf running all over the place?

As you yourself said, in Italy they just don't work.

 

[Vixen]

I already did...many times on this very forum. But I noticed that others did a competent job of exposing your ignorance on the subject while I took a vacation.

I didn't notice that. They sounded quite ignorant about it, to me.

 

[Desert Fox]

As you yourself said, in Italy they just don't work.

The thing is that you pretty much have admitted that there is no actual evidence of guilt. In such a case, even if she is guilty, it does not matter that she should not be convicted.

The West Memphis Three were convicted of murder based on wearing black t-shirts. Do you really want to go down that level of absurdity?

 

[Vixen]

There were 4 CCTV cameras between Raffaele's and the cottage and not one of them recorded images of Amanda or Raffaele that evening. They did come up with 2 of Rudy however. Are you saying that in the UK they would have convicted Amanda and Raffaele based on the absence of probative evidence?

No.

 

[Vixen]

The universal refusal among the PGP to concede any major weakness or problems in the investigation is for me by far the most fascinating aspect of this entire case and why I still follow it years after I became firmly comfortable with my conclusions about what happened. I've never seen any other case like this. Even the hardcore Ramsey PGP (who think one or more family members of JonBenet did it - a case I'll always be on the fence about) admit the police screwed up.

It's a widely held belief in the PGP community that many people are sitting in US jails on less evidence. Scott Peterson is a widely touted exampled. Well Scott Peterson had a strong motive. Scott Peterson was proven to be at the bay where the body was dumped at the time it was dumped. Scott Peterson freely lied about being at the bay where the body was dumped before anyone knew there was a murder. And, most importantly, there weren't 20 bloody footprints and a bloody handprint in Scott and Laci's home belonging to a known criminal. The comparison is absurd.

I brought this up before but if I were PGP or the prosecution I would accept that my only solid link in this case to Knox would be through the direct eye witness to the murder - Rudy Guede. If the case isn't based around Rudy's testimony, there is no case IMO. Neither the prosecution nor the PGP seem interested in Rudy testifying and I always wonder if it's a psychological guard, they know he has nothing useful to say.

As Marasca said, Amanda was covering up for Rudy.

 

[bagels]

In my experience, there is just no point in answering a hypothetical question.

You proposed the hypothetical in the first place. It is an interesting and worthwhile question though, how do you arrest Amanda in a way that doesn't involve beating a statement out of her based on misunderstanding her text exchange with her boss?

Speaking of hypothetical locations for the investigation, I can't speak for the UK, but in many US jurisdictions Meredith isn't even murdered - nevermind who do the police arrest. In Amanda's home state of Washington for example Rudy's burglary of the nursery while armed with a deadly weapon (knife) would be classified as a Class A felony and potentially carries a life sentence. He wouldn't be free to stab and rape Meredith and she would have many more years on this earth.

 

[Vixen]

Agreed about the strangeness of the PGP not being willing to admit basically any mistakes, wrongdoing or weakness of witnesses. The strongest evidence for me is Raf. His "nothing was stolen", "I told you bs" "I'm not sure if Amanda was with me" and his interview with Mansey. I still find it difficult to understand guilty or innocent how the memory of the murder night could be so vague.

The "hard" evidence is so compromised and the early intercepted Skype call pretty much excluded Amanda.

They had each other's back.

 

[Vixen]

The thing is that you pretty much have admitted that there is no actual evidence of guilt. In such a case, even if she is guilty, it does not matter that she should not be convicted.

The West Memphis Three were convicted of murder based on wearing black t-shirts. Do you really want to go down that level of absurdity?

There is a stack of evidence, which will never go away.

 

[Vixen]

You proposed the hypothetical in the first place. It is an interesting and worthwhile question though, how do you arrest Amanda in a way that doesn't involve beating a statement out of her based on misunderstanding her text exchange with her boss?

Speaking of hypothetical locations for the investigation, I can't speak for the UK, but in many US jurisdictions Meredith isn't even murdered - nevermind who do the police arrest. In Amanda's home state of Washington for example Rudy's burglary of the nursery while armed with a deadly weapon (knife) would be classified as a Class A felony and potentially carries a life sentence. He wouldn't be free to stab and rape Meredith and she would have many more years on this earth.

Rudy has never been convicted of burglary.