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Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I don't honestly know why I am answering you but I will. . . .I don't believe Guede was a skilled or rational thief and I believe he had mental issues as well.


Raff is known to have had mental issues and Amanda a personality disorder that made her behave recklessly and dangerously (for example sex with a stranger - a convicted cocaine dealer - just met on a train and putting it up on MySpace, with little sister abandonned to do so)
 
Need to understand that I expect nothing new to come of this case but just an occasion chat with people whom I spoke to a lot over the intervening discussion.

Amanda and Raff are free and likely Amanda's name will be completely cleared over time. Just kids (anybody under 30 or so :D ) being kids and getting caught by cops whom seem more interested in closing a case than actually finding out what happened.

Yeah, "kids being kids" yeah, let's kill our room mate for fun whilst we are drugged up to the eyeballs, that'll be fun!
 
Or, maybe Amanda's being an American played a role . . .

Complete red herring. Raff is one of them, a middle class Italian. Some of the legal staff might have gone to college with Papa Raff or know him from the Rotary Club, yet Raff came under the greatest suspicion and roughest treatment.

ETA At least Raff has some principles. He is not a complete and utter liar. For example, he steadfastly refuses to back up Amanda's alibi, after dramatically withdrawing it 5.11.2007, causing her majesty to immediately divert police suspicion to Patrick.

He cannot lie: Amanda was there.

And as upheld by Bruno & Marasca in their final verdict.
 
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Thanks to Vixen we have established beyond a shadow of a doubt that the lower window and most every window (thanks Methos) in the cottage was barred. It has also been demonstarted that the relevant distance is not 3.75 meters from the ground to the upper window but about 6 1/2 - 7 feet from lower ledge to lower ledge of the two windows without using the bars for placing either foot. Clearly an athlete (semi pro basketball player) lithe and in shape would be able to make the climb.

Massei and the prosecution hang their hats on the upper window's outer shutter being closed and the impossibility of opening them as it would take an extra climb. Even if the shutters had been closed by Filomena, opening them would have been easy.
 
Thanks to Vixen we have established beyond a shadow of a doubt that the lower window and most every window (thanks Methos) in the cottage was barred. It has also been demonstarted that the relevant distance is not 3.75 meters from the ground to the upper window but about 6 1/2 - 7 feet from lower ledge to lower ledge of the two windows without using the bars for placing either foot. Clearly an athlete (semi pro basketball player) lithe and in shape would be able to make the climb.

Massei and the prosecution hang their hats on the upper window's outer shutter being closed and the impossibility of opening them as it would take an extra climb. Even if the shutters had been closed by Filomena, opening them would have been easy.

It is 3.78m, as confirmed by the police - who will have taken precise measurements - and as readily seen in recent police photographs supplied to us all.

Logical fallacy of false dichotomy. The dichotomy is not, is it possible for a burglar to climb up to an upper window or not, but, even if it were possible, in theory, on a clear day and with a professional climber* six inches taller than Rudy and with a post-constructed climbing frame, it is still a legal fact found - and as finalised by Bruno & Marasca - the burglary was staged, and took place after the murder.

*Professional climbers will almost certainly have strong hands and good upper body strength by which to heave themselves up difficult ledges by muscle alone.
 
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Complete red herring. Raff is one of them, a middle class Italian. Some of the legal staff might have gone to college with Papa Raff or know him from the Rotary Club, yet Raff came under the greatest suspicion and roughest treatment.

ETA At least Raff has some principles. He is not a complete and utter liar. For example, he steadfastly refuses to back up Amanda's alibi, after dramatically withdrawing it 5.11.2007, causing her majesty to immediately divert police suspicion to Patrick.

He cannot lie: Amanda was there.

And as upheld by Bruno & Marasca in their final verdict.

Here we go around this merry-go-round once more.

1) Read Raffaele's book. His "withdrawal of an alibi" on the night of Nov 5/6 2007 was because no one was clarifying for him that he had to distinguish between Oct 31 and Nov 1st, of the week before. So he caved in, himself conflating the two nights.

2) The Bruno/Marasca report posits a synoptic narrative to close - a synopsis which blends what the defence/prosecution was claiming. Even the defence admits that Amanda "was there" for her shower mid-morning on Nov 2nd, which is within that timeframe, therefore it makes it into the synopsis. (Why is it that no one, other than you, thinks this is such a damning part of the report? In Italy, even Maresca "gets" that this is not placing them at the scene of the crime during the crime.)

3) As per the motive for the framing of Knox being because she is an American. I somewhat agree with you, but not for the strawman reasons you relate (your ridiculous, "Her Majesty".) My view is that if Raffaele had not recanted his "withdrawal of alibi" then he would have been let go. Otherwise, once he figured out on his own that Amanda couldn't have done the crime, he never wavered in the next 7 1/2 years. Both he and Amanda are innocent, so says he. More importantly for him, the evidence used to cast suspicion on Amanda, has nothing to do with him.

Are you ready to apologize for the "bars on the lower window" comments yet?
 
Raff is known to have had mental issues and Amanda a personality disorder that made her behave recklessly and dangerously (for example sex with a stranger - a convicted cocaine dealer - just met on a train and putting it up on MySpace, with little sister abandonned to do so)

Speaking of mental issues and a personality disorder...
 
So the criminals in this case were cleverer than the cops. As Mignini would say, they are "very astute".

Are you saying we should admire them?

Assuming the students are guilty the police/prosecutors had a couple of chances to get them but they blew both of them. The first was in the interrogation. Although the interrogation was probably illegal, since they went ahead with it and used it in court anyway they should have at least gotten incriminating information out of it. If Amanda is truly guilty they should have been able to get her to say something only a participant in the crime would know. It's not enough you say Patrick did it, give us something more. Tell us about the staged break-in. Give us details we can corroborate. And most of all tape it. If you have Amanda on tape revealing intimate details of the crime verified in the forensic record, you're doing a lot better than getting her to allegedly regurgitate the very vague theory of the crime you're feeding her to repeat.

The second area where the prosecution dropped the ball was not cutting a deal with Rudy and getting him to testify against the students. As it stands now Rudy Guede is serving a semi-lengthy prison sentence, and Amanda is free. If she was the primary aggressor, I'm sure the family would consider it justice if Rudy would agree to give corroborating testimony against his accomplices in exchange for an even lighter sentence if it meant Amanda and Raffaele behind bars for decades.

Obviously Rudy's many stories, from sitting on the toilet, to having a date with Meredith while she complains about Amanda stealing from her, are absurd. He would have to tell the truth which would include his participation in the crime with Amanda and Raffaele. And he would have to be able to partially corroborate his story. For example, producing evidence showing how he and Amanda or Raffaele communicated or interacted prior to the murder. In addition, allowing the defense to cross examine him, and being able to hold up to that, would go a long way towards helping the prosecution prove what they set out to prove.

Instead Rudy seems to have been quietly whisked through the system. His abbreviated fast-track trial a footnote in the events. The absurd maneuvering to get his letter which made vague statements against the students into their court without the possibility of cross examination doesn't instill one with a sense of confidence in the prosecution's faith in Rudy as an accomplice with the students. Really it makes me think they don't have any faith in him at all, as if he doesn't really have any useful information for their case.

It seems like both the prosecution and the PGP are afraid to poke into where things went wrong, because such examination leads to more than just doubt in the prosecution's competence. I think there's a good reason the case rested on twisting sloppy forensic work into suspicious webs that didn't amount to anything, because it's all they had and they knew it. Mignini knew Rudy was just a burglar the second he popped up in their investigation. He put together the only case he could, and it was never going to be enough to sustain a conviction.
 
Raff is known to have had mental issues and Amanda a personality disorder that made her behave recklessly and dangerously (for example sex with a stranger - a convicted cocaine dealer - just met on a train and putting it up on MySpace, with little sister abandonned to do so)

Vixen - you have slipped into slut-shaming again. Naughty naughty.
 
Obviously Rudy's many stories, from sitting on the toilet, to having a date with Meredith while she complains about Amanda stealing from her, are absurd. He would have to tell the truth which would include his participation in the crime with Amanda and Raffaele. And he would have to be able to partially corroborate his story. For example, producing evidence showing how he and Amanda or Raffaele communicated or interacted prior to the murder. In addition, allowing the defense to cross examine him, and being able to hold up to that, would go a long way towards helping the prosecution prove what they set out to prove.

Instead Rudy seems to have been quietly whisked through the system. His abbreviated fast-track trial a footnote in the events. The absurd maneuvering to get his letter which made vague statements against the students into their court without the possibility of cross examination doesn't instill one with a sense of confidence in the prosecution's faith in Rudy as an accomplice with the students. Really it makes me think they don't have any faith in him at all, as if he doesn't really have any useful information for their case.

It seems like both the prosecution and the PGP are afraid to poke into where things went wrong, because such examination leads to more than just doubt in the prosecution's competence. I think there's a good reason the case rested on twisting sloppy forensic work into suspicious webs that didn't amount to anything, because it's all they had and they knew it. Mignini knew Rudy was just a burglar the second he popped up in their investigation. He put together the only case he could, and it was never going to be enough to sustain a conviction.

Rudy is the forgotten man in all this. It would be telling even at this late date to keep track of comments that periodically say something like:

Well if Knox didn't do it then this is an unsolved crime.​

Or:

Knox knows something that she's not telling us.​

For heaven's sake, there's one guy who always seems to get a free pass out of this. He's the guy who admits to being there, and who invents stories as to why he was there, as well as stories about a rent-money dispute not even the other renters were aware of.

His DNA is found inside the victim, and he's the only one who claims it got there consentually. No one else knew that he and Meredith were "dating".

Whereas I do not believe the conspiratorial theories that Rudy was breaking into places like these - so as to steal legal assistant's laptops - the sweeping of Rudy under the rug must at the very least raise eyebrows.
 
Here we go around this merry-go-round once more.

1) Read Raffaele's book. His "withdrawal of an alibi" on the night of Nov 5/6 2007 was because no one was clarifying for him that he had to distinguish between Oct 31 and Nov 1st, of the week before. So he caved in, himself conflating the two nights.

2) The Bruno/Marasca report posits a synoptic narrative to close - a synopsis which blends what the defence/prosecution was claiming. Even the defence admits that Amanda "was there" for her shower mid-morning on Nov 2nd, which is within that timeframe, therefore it makes it into the synopsis. (Why is it that no one, other than you, thinks this is such a damning part of the report? In Italy, even Maresca "gets" that this is not placing them at the scene of the crime during the crime.)

3) As per the motive for the framing of Knox being because she is an American. I somewhat agree with you, but not for the strawman reasons you relate (your ridiculous, "Her Majesty".) My view is that if Raffaele had not recanted his "withdrawal of alibi" then he would have been let go. Otherwise, once he figured out on his own that Amanda couldn't have done the crime, he never wavered in the next 7 1/2 years. Both he and Amanda are innocent, so says he. More importantly for him, the evidence used to cast suspicion on Amanda, has nothing to do with him.

Are you ready to apologize for the "bars on the lower window" comments yet?

In a recent interview Raff said he was not prepared to vouch for Amanda being there all evening at his place, qualifying that by saying he would only swear an oath for members of his family.

It is a fact, that ever since his last statement that his previous claims to this effect were "a crock of ****" and that she had asked him to lie 5.11.2007, he has steadfastly refused to support her alibi, even to the extent of calling a press conference during the appeal to rub in the point. His counsel, Bongiornio, made it a key part of his appeal. You appear to be a stranger to the truth.

"Synoptic" in that it makes it readable back to back with what the merits hearing and appeal court judges said. Not even B&M could twist some things.
 
Assuming the students are guilty the police/prosecutors had a couple of chances to get them but they blew both of them. The first was in the interrogation. Although the interrogation was probably illegal, since they went ahead with it and used it in court anyway they should have at least gotten incriminating information out of it. If Amanda is truly guilty they should have been able to get her to say something only a participant in the crime would know. It's not enough you say Patrick did it, give us something more. Tell us about the staged break-in. Give us details we can corroborate. And most of all tape it. If you have Amanda on tape revealing intimate details of the crime verified in the forensic record, you're doing a lot better than getting her to allegedly regurgitate the very vague theory of the crime you're feeding her to repeat.

The second area where the prosecution dropped the ball was not cutting a deal with Rudy and getting him to testify against the students. As it stands now Rudy Guede is serving a semi-lengthy prison sentence, and Amanda is free. If she was the primary aggressor, I'm sure the family would consider it justice if Rudy would agree to give corroborating testimony against his accomplices in exchange for an even lighter sentence if it meant Amanda and Raffaele behind bars for decades.

Obviously Rudy's many stories, from sitting on the toilet, to having a date with Meredith while she complains about Amanda stealing from her, are absurd. He would have to tell the truth which would include his participation in the crime with Amanda and Raffaele. And he would have to be able to partially corroborate his story. For example, producing evidence showing how he and Amanda or Raffaele communicated or interacted prior to the murder. In addition, allowing the defense to cross examine him, and being able to hold up to that, would go a long way towards helping the prosecution prove what they set out to prove.

Instead Rudy seems to have been quietly whisked through the system. His abbreviated fast-track trial a footnote in the events. The absurd maneuvering to get his letter which made vague statements against the students into their court without the possibility of cross examination doesn't instill one with a sense of confidence in the prosecution's faith in Rudy as an accomplice with the students. Really it makes me think they don't have any faith in him at all, as if he doesn't really have any useful information for their case.

It seems like both the prosecution and the PGP are afraid to poke into where things went wrong, because such examination leads to more than just doubt in the prosecution's competence. I think there's a good reason the case rested on twisting sloppy forensic work into suspicious webs that didn't amount to anything, because it's all they had and they knew it. Mignini knew Rudy was just a burglar the second he popped up in their investigation. He put together the only case he could, and it was never going to be enough to sustain a conviction.

The crook has probably accepted a €100K pay-off similar to that offered Alessi and Aviello, offered to them, they claim, by Bongiorno herself, for it is she, and she has never sued them for libel. Rudy'll probably come out of prison to live in luxury.
 
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In a recent interview Raff said he was not prepared to vouch for Amanda being there all evening at his place, qualifying that by saying he would only swear an oath for members of his family.

It is a fact, that ever since his last statement that his previous claims to this effect were "a crock of ****" and that she had asked him to lie 5.11.2007, he has steadfastly refused to support her alibi, even to the extent of calling a press conference during the appeal to rub in the point. His counsel, Bongiornio, made it a key part of his appeal. You appear to be a stranger to the truth.

"Synoptic" in that it makes it readable back to back with what the merits hearing and appeal court judges said. Not even B&M could twist some things.

If you had a link buttressing your claim about Raffaele, you would have provided it. Yet the last few links you provided demonstratex the exact opposite of your claim - so it's no wonder you decline this time.

The rest of the post above is unintelligible.
 
If you had a link buttressing your claim about Raffaele, you would have provided it. Yet the last few links you provided demonstratex the exact opposite of your claim - so it's no wonder you decline this time.

The rest of the post above is unintelligible.

It's in current affairs, readily googleable. Do keep up with the news, "Bill"! Raff has not supported Amanda's alibi for over eight years now. I wonder if you are qualified to comment on the case at all.
 
It's in current affairs, readily googleable. Do keep up with the news, "Bill"! Raff has not supported Amanda's alibi for over eight years now. I wonder if you are qualified to comment on the case at all.

"Lol". Have you read either Raf's English language book, or his recent Italian language book?

It's all there.
 
I see. We are now not allowed to say anything horrid about prostitutes, druggies and degenerates. We get the picture.

Who in this case is a prostitute?

Meredith, Laura and Filomena all were sleeping with men. All were doing drugs.

You are slut-shaming them all!
 
It's in current affairs, readily googleable. Do keep up with the news, "Bill"! Raff has not supported Amanda's alibi for over eight years now. I wonder if you are qualified to comment on the case at all.

Once again, you fail to provide a link. Then again when you do you tend to link to things that refute your point.

Are you ready to apologize for the barred window photo you claimed showed that it was not barred?
 
Once again, you fail to provide a link. Then again when you do you tend to link to things that refute your point.

Are you ready to apologize for the barred window photo you claimed showed that it was not barred?

I'll tell you what. I'll help you develop research skills by letting you google it yourself. I have already spoilt Grinder by giving him links every five minutes and then he doesn't make note of their content.

Even if the lower window was barred, the upper window definitely was not, until a later date. Therefore the climber cheated by hauling himself up by the bars.

It's not honest 'evidence'.
 
Who in this case is a prostitute?

Meredith, Laura and Filomena all were sleeping with men. All were doing drugs.

You are slut-shaming them all!

Pot is hardly on a par with Class A addictive cocaine. So Mez took the odd toke in company, when offered. So did Bill Clinton. Raff smoked the stuff all day long.

Mez, Laura and Filomena were in proper relationships, fiancés and boyfriends. Surely you know the difference between that and wanton - potentially dangerous - promiscuity?
 
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