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Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Here's what Massei wrote:

It has already been stated that Rudy Guede was acquainted with the inhabitants of via della Pergola, and that he had a good relationship of friendship and fun with them (with all of the boys from downstairs; with Amanda, in whom he had actually shown some interest; and with Meredith). It thus seems unlikely that Rudy decided to enter this house in the illicit and violent manner shown by the smashing of the window. It is even more unlikely given that at least some of the residents of the house might have been home or might have turned up and surprised Rudy Guede, whom they knew, in the very act of burglary or just after committing this act. Filomena Romanelli stated (cf. declarations at the hearing of February 7, 2009) that when she left the house in via della Pergola 7 on the afternoon of November 1, 2007 she had closed the shutters of her window (p. 68); she had pulled them in (p. 95); "the wood was slightly swelled, so they rubbed against the windowsill" (p. 26), adding that "it was an old window...the wood rubbed". And on the day she went away, she recalled "having closed them because I knew that I would be away for a couple of days" (p. 96). She later added, when noting what she had declared on December 3, 2007, that "I had pulled the shutters together, but I don't think I closed them tight" (p. 115).
[36] It must be held that when Filomena Romanelli left the house in via della Pergola, she had pulled the shutters towards the interior of her room, although she did not think that she had actually closed them; furthermore, because they were old and the wood had swelled a bit, they rubbed on the windowsill; to pull them towards the room it was necessary to use some force ("they rubbed on the windowsill"); but in this way, once they had been pulled in, as Romanelli remembered doing, they remained well closed by the pressure of the swelled wood against the windowsill. Now, for a rock to have been able to break the glass of the window without shattering the outside shutters, it would have been necessary to remove the obstacle of the shutters by opening them up. The consultant for the defence actually assumed that this had been done; in his exhibit, he assumed that the shutters were not present [in front of the window]. Consequently, since the shutters had been pulled together and their rubbing put pressure on the windowsill on which they rested, it would have first been necessary to effect an operation with the specific goal of completely opening these shutters. The failure to find any instrument suitable for making such an opening (one cannot even see what type of instrument could be used to this end) leads one to assume that the wall would have to have
49
been scaled a first time in order to effect the complete opening of the shutters ("if the shutters were closed, he could not have passed through, that is obvious", cf. declarations of the consultant for the defence, Sergeant Francesco Pasquali, p. 22 hearing July 3, 2009), in order to enable the burglar to aim at the window and smash it by throwing a large stone - the one found in Romanelli's room. The "climber" (the window in Romanelli's room is located at a height of more than three and a half metres from the ground underneath, cf. photo 11 from the relevant dossier) would also need to rely on the fact that the shutters were not actually latched, and also that the ‚scuri‛ ,which are the wooden panels [scuri=non-louvered shutters in interior of room] that usually constitute the outer side (or the inner, depending on the point of view) of the window [attached to the outer edge of the inner side of the window-frame] had not been fastened to the window-frame to which the broken pane was attached; otherwise it would not have been possible to open them from the outside; nor would it have been possible, even breaking the glass, to make a hole giving access to the house, [37] since if these inner panels had been closed, they would have continued to provide an adequate obstacle to the possibility of opening the window, in spite of the broken pane.
Admitting that the climber decided to bet, in a sense, on the presence of both of these "favourable" - in fact, indispensable - conditions, the climber would then have had to climb up once, from underneath the window of Romanelli's room, in order to open the shutters; then he would have had to get the large rock, and having selected the point where he wanted to break the window, to throw it (it seems impossible to accept that he actually made the climb while carrying the large rock, and threw it against the window at the risk of being hit by glass falling from the pane thus shattered).
He would then have to have returned underneath Romanelli's window for the second climb, and through the broken glass, open the window (balanced on his knees or feet on the outside part of the windowsill) otherwise he would not have been able to pass his arm through the hole in the glass made by the stone) and reach up to the latch that fastened the window casements, necessarily latched since otherwise, if the casements had not been latched, it would not have been necessary to throw a rock at all, but just to open the shutters and climb inside.
This scenario appears totally unlikely, given the effort involved (going twice underneath the window, going up to throw the stone, scaling the wall twice) and taking into account the uncertainty of success (having to count on the two favourable circumstances indicated above), with a repetition of movements and
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behaviours, all of which could easily be seen by anyone who happened to be passing by on the street or actually coming into the house.


His entire theory is based on the shutters being tightly closed which certainly wasn't proven.

Btw, the house was not in control of the owner in 2008. Go to your favorite PG sites and look at their pictures. Also when did they add the iron gate in front of the door.

Could you produce one of your PGP writing that the lawyer going up the bars was phony because the bars weren't there.

Did they match the bars to the previous window design? :rolleyes:
 
Holy Moly.

The window below Romanelli's was (and is) fitted with a latticed iron grille which lies flush to the exterior wall. That grille was in place on 1st November 2007. Fact. Solid gold fact.

(Unless, that is, one prefers to invent "facts" to suit one's bogus arguments......)
 
Niether the police, the patholgist nor the judge said Mez was gang-raped, so you are arguing a straw man.

Someone did return to moved and undress the body, cover it with a duvet, scatter bits of paper on top of it (hang on, wasn't the burglary supposed to have come first?). The removal of the bra and other clothes after death and the posing of the body was sexual assault in itself.


Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. None of the above actually happened, and there's zero reliable, credible evidence to indicate that it happened. Next.



BTW it's nonsense that gang-rapists have a great bond of trust with each other. There have been gang-rapes by gangs of youths, famously along the canal at King's Cross, I doubt any of them trusted the others as far as they could throw them.


BTW, this is utter nonsense in itself. The types of gangs of youths who commit gang rape will - without exception, I will suggest - have hung around as a group for a considerable period of time. They will probably have engaged in petty crime as a group, which will have built trust plus an understanding that the group is willing to commit criminal acts. In addition, many youth gangs will have a de facto leader, to whom the members will look for cues and for "permission" to commit criminal acts. Again, the assumption of leadership and the formation of a hierarchy will almost always have taken months, if not years, to accomplish.

In other words, by the time these sorts of groups come to perform serious criminal acts such as rape (or murder), they will have a) known each other for some significant period of time, b) engaged in an escalating seriousness of criminal acts (for example: group shoplifting, criminal damage, lower-level physical assault) prior to moving on to acts like rape (or murder) - which will have gradually built up their trust in each other to act as a group and to remain cohesive and "omerta"-like, and c) built up a group hierarchy of sorts. All of those things mean that such groups will ultimately have sufficient confidence and trust in each other to commit serious group criminal acts such as group rape or group murder.

If you can find any documented cases where groups of youths (or groups of any type, for that matter) have a) started off their group criminal activities with group rape or group murder, without having previously gone through a long, gradual escalation of severity of group criminal acts, and/or b) committed serious group criminal acts such as group rape or group murder within several days of having met for the first time, I'll be (as they say) "all ears". But you won't be able to find any.
 
Here's what Massei wrote:

It has already been stated that Rudy Guede was acquainted with the inhabitants of via della Pergola, and that he had a good relationship of friendship and fun with them (with all of the boys from downstairs; with Amanda, in whom he had actually shown some interest; and with Meredith). It thus seems unlikely that Rudy decided to enter this house in the illicit and violent manner shown by the smashing of the window. It is even more unlikely given that at least some of the residents of the house might have been home or might have turned up and surprised Rudy Guede, whom they knew, in the very act of burglary or just after committing this act. Filomena Romanelli stated (cf. declarations at the hearing of February 7, 2009) that when she left the house in via della Pergola 7 on the afternoon of November 1, 2007 she had closed the shutters of her window (p. 68); she had pulled them in (p. 95); "the wood was slightly swelled, so they rubbed against the windowsill" (p. 26), adding that "it was an old window...the wood rubbed". And on the day she went away, she recalled "having closed them because I knew that I would be away for a couple of days" (p. 96). She later added, when noting what she had declared on December 3, 2007, that "I had pulled the shutters together, but I don't think I closed them tight" (p. 115).
[36] It must be held that when Filomena Romanelli left the house in via della Pergola, she had pulled the shutters towards the interior of her room, although she did not think that she had actually closed them; furthermore, because they were old and the wood had swelled a bit, they rubbed on the windowsill; to pull them towards the room it was necessary to use some force ("they rubbed on the windowsill"); but in this way, once they had been pulled in, as Romanelli remembered doing, they remained well closed by the pressure of the swelled wood against the windowsill. Now, for a rock to have been able to break the glass of the window without shattering the outside shutters, it would have been necessary to remove the obstacle of the shutters by opening them up. The consultant for the defence actually assumed that this had been done; in his exhibit, he assumed that the shutters were not present [in front of the window]. Consequently, since the shutters had been pulled together and their rubbing put pressure on the windowsill on which they rested, it would have first been necessary to effect an operation with the specific goal of completely opening these shutters. The failure to find any instrument suitable for making such an opening (one cannot even see what type of instrument could be used to this end) leads one to assume that the wall would have to have
49
been scaled a first time in order to effect the complete opening of the shutters ("if the shutters were closed, he could not have passed through, that is obvious", cf. declarations of the consultant for the defence, Sergeant Francesco Pasquali, p. 22 hearing July 3, 2009), in order to enable the burglar to aim at the window and smash it by throwing a large stone - the one found in Romanelli's room. The "climber" (the window in Romanelli's room is located at a height of more than three and a half metres from the ground underneath, cf. photo 11 from the relevant dossier) would also need to rely on the fact that the shutters were not actually latched, and also that the ‚scuri‛ ,which are the wooden panels [scuri=non-louvered shutters in interior of room] that usually constitute the outer side (or the inner, depending on the point of view) of the window [attached to the outer edge of the inner side of the window-frame] had not been fastened to the window-frame to which the broken pane was attached; otherwise it would not have been possible to open them from the outside; nor would it have been possible, even breaking the glass, to make a hole giving access to the house, [37] since if these inner panels had been closed, they would have continued to provide an adequate obstacle to the possibility of opening the window, in spite of the broken pane.
Admitting that the climber decided to bet, in a sense, on the presence of both of these "favourable" - in fact, indispensable - conditions, the climber would then have had to climb up once, from underneath the window of Romanelli's room, in order to open the shutters; then he would have had to get the large rock, and having selected the point where he wanted to break the window, to throw it (it seems impossible to accept that he actually made the climb while carrying the large rock, and threw it against the window at the risk of being hit by glass falling from the pane thus shattered).
He would then have to have returned underneath Romanelli's window for the second climb, and through the broken glass, open the window (balanced on his knees or feet on the outside part of the windowsill) otherwise he would not have been able to pass his arm through the hole in the glass made by the stone) and reach up to the latch that fastened the window casements, necessarily latched since otherwise, if the casements had not been latched, it would not have been necessary to throw a rock at all, but just to open the shutters and climb inside.
This scenario appears totally unlikely, given the effort involved (going twice underneath the window, going up to throw the stone, scaling the wall twice) and taking into account the uncertainty of success (having to count on the two favourable circumstances indicated above), with a repetition of movements and
50
behaviours, all of which could easily be seen by anyone who happened to be passing by on the street or actually coming into the house.


His entire theory is based on the shutters being tightly closed which certainly wasn't proven.

Btw, the house was not in control of the owner in 2008. Go to your favorite PG sites and look at their pictures. Also when did they add the iron gate in front of the door.

Could you produce one of your PGP writing that the lawyer going up the bars was phony because the bars weren't there.

Did they match the bars to the previous window design? :rolleyes:


It's long been a criticism that the Ricardo Pannella climb had the benefit of bars to cling onto. The C5 video is deceptive too, with frames missing. We see him about to jump down, but then suddenly he's in front of the window. A two second swing and he's perched on the upper floor ledge. It's a con.

You have to ask, how come he didn't turn up at the trial.

Incidentally, these are some of the papers found scattered around found n top of the duvet. If the burglary took place first, including papers scattered about in the rummaging. How come the papers are on top of the duvet?
 

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Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. None of the above actually happened, and there's zero reliable, credible evidence to indicate that it happened. Next.






BTW, this is utter nonsense in itself. The types of gangs of youths who commit gang rape will - without exception, I will suggest - have hung around as a group for a considerable period of time. They will probably have engaged in petty crime as a group, which will have built trust plus an understanding that the group is willing to commit criminal acts. In addition, many youth gangs will have a de facto leader, to whom the members will look for cues and for "permission" to commit criminal acts. Again, the assumption of leadership and the formation of a hierarchy will almost always have taken months, if not years, to accomplish.

In other words, by the time these sorts of groups come to perform serious criminal acts such as rape (or murder), they will have a) known each other for some significant period of time, b) engaged in an escalating seriousness of criminal acts (for example: group shoplifting, criminal damage, lower-level physical assault) prior to moving on to acts like rape (or murder) - which will have gradually built up their trust in each other to act as a group and to remain cohesive and "omerta"-like, and c) built up a group hierarchy of sorts. All of those things mean that such groups will ultimately have sufficient confidence and trust in each other to commit serious group criminal acts such as group rape or group murder.

If you can find any documented cases where groups of youths (or groups of any type, for that matter) have a) started off their group criminal activities with group rape or group murder, without having previously gone through a long, gradual escalation of severity of group criminal acts, and/or b) committed serious group criminal acts such as group rape or group murder within several days of having met for the first time, I'll be (as they say) "all ears". But you won't be able to find any.

There are two cases quoted here, which I found in oh, two nanoseconds:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1350296/Woman-gang-raped-after-night-out.html
 
Here's the police pic of the window again. Blow it up. Those are not bars, it is an ordinary wooden frame encasing window panes, with NO foothold and certainly no "top bar" for a climber to stand on whilst he hoists himself up using arms only (no bars were available then, and to the left of the bottom window, which means sliding along the ledge by the finger tips).

lol I'm afraid you've lost the plot. I'm sorry the obviousness of Rudy's second climb job in two weeks time up metal bars is causing you disturbances in the force.
 
It's long been a criticism that the Ricardo Pannella climb had the benefit of bars to cling onto. The C5 video is deceptive too, with frames missing. We see him about to jump down, but then suddenly he's in front of the window. A two second swing and he's perched on the upper floor ledge. It's a con.

You have to ask, how come he didn't turn up at the trial.

It's hard to know what your argument is.

I thought that your argument was that the climb was an easy one, only because the climber was a professional?

Then......... you imply that even though it does show an easy climb - that the reason this is that the film has been doctored.

Which is it?

So far, you've just been making things up, and then proving it by showing am (undated) photo which actually proves the opposite of what you claim.

One gets the reason why the ISC in 2015 called an end to his. Apparently there exist people out there who will argue both sides of something, will offer pseudo evidence - and in your case evidence contrary to the point you're making (!)....

... all in the attempt to keep the suspicion alive that the two kids might have been involved.

It's been eight years since the horrible murder. It's been eight months since the acquittal. No one in Italy is going on like this, save for one obsessed blogger who Andrea Vogt says is trying to have judges charged with crimes...
 
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It's long been a criticism that the Ricardo Pannella climb had the benefit of bars to cling onto. The C5 video is deceptive too, with frames missing. We see him about to jump down, but then suddenly he's in front of the window. A two second swing and he's perched on the upper floor ledge. It's a con.

You have to ask, how come he didn't turn up at the trial.

Incidentally, these are some of the papers found scattered around found n top of the duvet. If the burglary took place first, including papers scattered about in the rummaging. How come the papers are on top of the duvet?

The break-in took place first. Rudy was still rummaging around for loot after he killed Meredith. For example, we know he dug around for her phones and possibly money.
 
There are two cases quoted here, which I found in oh, two nanoseconds:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1350296/Woman-gang-raped-after-night-out.html


Oh. Oh dear. Seriously?

I'm going to repeat the paragraph that I wrote, and I will highlight the relevant conditionalities to help make them easier to comprehend:

If you can find any documented cases where groups of youths (or groups of any type, for that matter) have a) started off their group criminal activities with group rape or group murder, without having previously gone through a long, gradual escalation of severity of group criminal acts, and/or b) committed serious group criminal acts such as group rape or group murder within several days of having met for the first time, I'll be (as they say) "all ears". But you won't be able to find any.

Care to have another go? As a final reminder: cases where the rapes/murders have been committed a) by well-established gangs, and/or b) by gangs who have also previously engaged in escalating acts of antisocial behaviour and lower-level criminal behaviour will not meet the qualifying criteria.
 
Here's the police pic of the window again. Blow it up. Those are not bars, it is an ordinary wooden frame encasing window panes, with NO foothold and certainly no "top bar" for a climber to stand on whilst he hoists himself up using arms only (no bars were available then, and to the left of the bottom window, which means sliding along the ledge by the finger tips).

Here's a police pic showing the bars

 
Vixen said:
Here's the police pic of the window again. Blow it up. Those are not bars, it is an ordinary wooden frame encasing window panes, with NO foothold and certainly no "top bar" for a climber to stand on whilst he hoists himself up using arms only (no bars were available then, and to the left of the bottom window, which means sliding along the ledge by the finger tips).


It's time to apologize, Vixen.
 
Bill Williams said:
It's time to apologize, Vixen.
It's pretty much always time to apologise for Vixen, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

When do the admins step in? The continual linking to info that does not even address the question asked? The posting of pictures which refute the very point they are trying to make?

Of all the whack-a-mole trips around the merry-go-round, this one has to be the whack-a-moliest. I waiting for sex-on-a-train to raise its ugly head.... go back circa fall-2011 on the old JREF and you'll see that one.

In true guilter-style, that one morphed into ...... I can't say it, it will simply start a new round. If you're not part of the solution.....
 

Are you sure that isn't a defense picture? I'm sure the guy is a defense lawyer, note the shoes.

Regardless the bars are the same as the alleged window Vixen claimed.

I've already pointed to Massei and he didn't make the claims Vixen made.

The video demonstrates clearly that the distance from the lower window to the upper window is not 10 feet or even 9 feet but more like 6 1/2 to 7 feet from the lower sill. The climber in the video doesn't walk up the bars but rather grabs the upper bars in his move up.
 
Hiya Grinder!
Can I have your opinion of this?
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...hristian-Tramontano-Statement-07-Jan-2008.pdf
Is CT, and his girl, full of sheee-it?
Sounds pretty legit to me.
My 2¢ only,
RW

I have no idea if the alleged report was made or is accurately translated.

The key is Following the murder of the young English girl I saw the photographs of one of those arrested
in the newspaper, I’m referring to Rudy Guede, and I believe I recognize him as the young
black man
that had burgled my house and who I had also seen in the Domus local and in the
historic centre area in a date after the burglary


So even in this report he can't identify him for sure. If the police had a witness equally uncertain about something against the kids we all would rightfully throw it out. Curatolo was much more certain.

What i find most interesting is how much this statement varies from what Nina wrote.

Nina has it from 1 to 4 am while CT has it at 6 am. Nina has him as a bar tender while he says "I should start by saying I’m one of the partners of the bar “Coffee Break” .

While Nina says that he had Rudy thrown out of Domus, CT says he saw him there after the night of the home invasion but no mention of throwing him out. I'd think that would be really important because the owner should have been a corroborating witness.

Do I believe CT had his place invaded? Pretty sure it's true.

Oh and it wasn't Nappy that came that night but rather she took the statement Jan. 7th. In fact, it would seem the police didn't even go out that night or one would think there would be a police report but that part is not in the statement just dashes.

I'd say that the inaccuracies of Nina's accounts of this should make people worry about other parts of her book like the Diaz fire.
 
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Grinder said:
I have no idea if the alleged report was made or is accurately translated.
<snip>

Do I believe CT had his place invaded? Pretty sure it's true.


So you believe that a black male was inside CT and Monica's residence,
cool to know.
:)


* * * * *

Regarding this:
the Diaz fire.

Don'cha believe that a theft + fire happened at The Diaz residence?
And Diaz had her deceased Mom's gold watch stolen? That she reportedly lived near Rudy Guede?
Just wondering.


From The WWW,
Maria Mandu Diaz – Break-in at her home

On October 23, Rudy Guede’s neighbour, Maria Mandu Diaz, was attending a grape harvest festival when police arrived to inform her that her home had been badly damaged by a fire and her cat had been killed in the blaze. Someone entered the home through a window and started the fire on the 3rd floor by throwing a scarf over a lamp. The thief cooked a meal and tossed food all around the kitchen. The stove was left on and the refrigerator open. A fireman commented to her: “Loro hanno gozzovigliato,” they feasted here. Her jewel box had been looted and her mothers gold watch was missing.

*Note: information about the break-in and fire at Maria Diaz’ apartment comes from Nina Burleigh who interviewed her and wrote about it in her book “A Fatal Gift Of Beauty”. Maria Diaz did not testify.

Link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/rudy-guede/
 
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RW why don't you find some actual corroboration for the Diaz story. No I don't believe it and believe it less after reading CT's statement showing that Nina's reporting at best is inaccurate.

We've been over this many a time and no one has even shown that Diaz exists much less that she lives directly next door. No news report of this fire that according to Nina took three years to repair and killed a cat.

This is the worst part of the Internet - one source gets repeated a thousand times and it becomes a fact. Well it's not a fact it's a factoid.

With all their resources if the FOA/IIP people think it's so important then get a credible corroborating source or two.

ETA and it's not Monica its Monika. If CT and Monika saw a black man in their place it means nothing and the fact that they couldn't identify him proves it. There is no way you would accept this type of identification against the kids. Be honest.

ETA2 - Nina not only has him seeing Rudi afterward at Domus she also has him seeing him at Merlin and having Pisco kick him out. Do you think CT just forgot to mention that?
 
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