The day you are saved - from religion

[quadraginta]

Projection! Ahh the last recourse of someone who can't make an argument. Right out of the "PeeWee Herman "I know you are but what am?!!" school of thought. Tips hat!


<snip>

Ahh. Ad homs. The last recourse of someone who can't make an argument.

You do realize, I hope, that it isn't "projection" when it's true. It is simply pointing out hypocrisy.

Now you get to explain to everyone why it is somehow different when you do it.

 

[tsig]

Whoops I accidentally wrote fundamentalist, I guess out of habit. What I meant to say was fanatical or extreme beliefs.

Catholics are pretty extreme and especially considering your age I would imagine even more so conservative.

So here's what I wonder. Why is it, that we rarely see Atheists attacking Believers for years if they were not raised in a religious household?

Why don't we see Angry Atheists that grew up in Atheist homes?

I know you mentioned that you went to seminary yourself decades ago. So why are you still in the fight? If you are at peace in your beliefs, why the need to so fervently denigrate others?

And it's funny to me how suddenly since the conversation involves you, the laughing dog and OUCH!!! have turned into "It's not nice to personalize posts"

Well hey at least you still hung on to the Catholic tradition of hypocrisy!

In spite of the fact that you were dead wrong about my background you still claim you are right, fascinating, seldom do we see such faith.

I know you mentioned that you went to seminary yourself decades ago. So why are you still in the fight

Why are you? Esp why are you in the fight against atheists?

 

[aleCcowaN]

I forget how Puritan the US seems to the rest of the world.

Before my birth my Catholic mother was forced to take fish for lunch while she worked for John Hancock Inc at their headquarters in Boston. She couldn't convince the folk that Argentines, Uruguayans and Paraguayans are excused of that ritual because beef is the food of the poor people in the continent (A rule I don't think it applies while living or visiting other country). Anyway, she had it her way once but the accusing glances of Tyrians and Trojans were so nasty that she had to yield and eat fish during all her contract.

One of the many similar reasons my parents didn't emigrated to the States: square heads everywhere. In our culture ignorance seem to fade away and not to affect your life -though it does-. There, it seems to come back like peer pressure and shenanigans. That's why religious folks à la americaine are so unbearable to me.

 

[truethat]

Ahh.. the No True Atheist fallacy. Who died and made you Atheist Pope that you can define who is and who is not an Atheist? Instead of telling us there are fallacies maybe you could show us the fallacies or would that be beneath the dignity of an Authority such as yourself?

Oh come on, you know exactly what he means. I can pretty much bet that the majority of your posts on this site are on RELIGION

So why would you obsess about something you purport not to believe?

The only way to rationalize it to yourself is pretending that you are standing up against the fanatical believers. But you don't really. You (not you personally btw you in general) You treat all believers the same way.

It kinda comes across as, "Well if I can't enjoy it, I'll ruin it for everyone else as well."

Pathological is a good word to describe it, don't you think?

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

I know you mentioned that you went to seminary yourself decades ago. So why are you still in the fight

Why are you? Esp why are you in the fight against atheists?

Because it's somehow different when she does it.

Hadn't you gotten that yet?

 

[truethat]

Before my birth my Catholic mother was forced to take fish for lunch while she worked for John Hancock Inc at their headquarters in Boston. She couldn't convince the folk that Argentines, Uruguayans and Paraguayans are excused of that ritual because beef is the food of the poor people in the continent (A rule I don't think it applies while living or visiting other country). Anyway, she had it her way once but the accusing glances of Tyrians and Trojans were so nasty that she had to yield and eat fish during all her contract.

One of the many similar reasons my parents didn't emigrated to the States: square heads everywhere. In our culture ignorance seem to fade away and not to affect your life -though it does-. There, it seems to come back like peer pressure and shenanigans. That's why religious folks à la americaine are so unbearable to me.

Very interesting. I suppose us NYers feel the same way about venturing into the Bible Belt.

 

[aleCcowaN]

Ahh.. the No True Atheist fallacy. Who died and made you Atheist Pope that you can define who is and who is not an Atheist? Instead of telling us there are fallacies maybe you could show us the fallacies or would that be beneath the dignity of an Authority such as yourself?

Why don't you short that to "neener, neener!" and save bytes. You talking of fallacies! Outrageous, now the birds are shooting to the shotguns!

 

[truethat]

Because it's somehow different when she does it.

Hadn't you gotten that yet?

I mentioned that for a year or so I continued the discussion. But I really think this is the first time in about a year I've posted in a religious thread. Whereas I would wager (could be wrong) that you regularly post in them.

It seemed boring to me after a while. This thread was about someone becoming ATHEIST and yet you've still managed to make it about religious believers. LOL


ETA

OK here's how everyone can check out what I mean. In the last MONTH I've posted in three threads in the Religion and Philosophy forum. Then prior to that the next post was in November 2014.

Tsig has posted in 25 different threads in less than 30 days in Religion and Philosophy.


It's easy to see. Just go to Advanced search, type the member name, then go to the Forum only Religion and Philosophy and make sure results are shown by THREAD and not posts.

And what's interesting is the Religion and Philosophy posts I did post in were about ATHEISTS or NON BELIEVERS. So anyone who is saying it's the same thing is delusional. LOL

 

[aleCcowaN]

Very interesting. I suppose us NYers feel the same way about venturing into the Bible Belt.

To me the Bible Belt and the Last Circle of Hell are one and the same. Changing planes in Atlanta was already too much to me.

 

[quadraginta]

I mentioned that for a year or so I continued the discussion. But I really think this is the first time in about a year I've posted in a religious thread. Whereas I would wager (could be wrong) that you regularly post in them.

Yup. You would be.

It seemed boring to me after a while. This thread was about someone becoming ATHEIST and yet you've still managed to make it about religious believers. LOL

I did?

Have you actually read the thread?

 

[Leumas]

Things which they are being unfairly accused of by apologist theists is one topic which comes to mind

In spite of the fact that you were dead wrong about my background you still claim you are right, fascinating, seldom do we see such faith.

Why are you? Esp why are you in the fight against atheists?

This vitriolic bashing of outspoken atheists and trying to equate them with mentally damaged fanatic zealots who if they were sane would have to admit that they have nothing to talk about due to their lack of belief..... has a very clear reasoning behind it.

These incessant attempts at shutting up activist atheists and claiming that their desire to speak against the poor innocuous religions stems from anger and hatred and desire for vengeance due to some past childhood abuses they suffered....... has a very definite and adamant stratagem behind it.

This obvious fear and hatred and anger and belligerence towards outspoken activist atheism driving all this pathetic Concern Trolling stems from the realization that activist outspoken atheists are making a difference.... they know that and thus they must deploy all means of chicanery and skullduggery as countermeasures..... but their pathetic attacks are only encouraging signs that activist outspoken atheism is working.

In the past they would have tortured and burnt us alive.... nowadays they have to resort to Concern Trolling and all sorts of slanderous lies and dissimulations and sophistry of all kinds.

They know jolly well, and it is driving them crazy, that there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of this:

I have said it more than once on this forum, but those of you who think engaging YEC, or ID proponents is a waste of time, it is not. Without reading take down after take down of those beliefs on this and other forums (I lurked forever) I probably would not have gotten to the point I am today. I thank each and every one of you for taking the time you did blasting away the ignorance and delusions of people like me.

 

[truethat]

Quad nobody's talking to ya, stop trying to get attention!

 

[quadraginta]

Quad nobody's talking to ya, stop trying to get attention!

You shouldn't put yourself down like that.

 

[pharphis]

So much to respond to and so little time. For now, I will highlight one dishonest remark

I compare these zealot theists and anti-theists with one group -the theist- trying to have sexual intercourse everywhere: public places, kindergartens, etc, while the opposite group -the antitheist- is trying to have sexual intercourse banned from everywhere including theists' bedrooms. Both are pathologically obsessed with sex. Anyway, sex continues to be more part of human nature than its absence. A healthy approach is if it pleases you have sex and if it pleases you have it not, but in any case don't let a piece of pubic hair have your reason in a leash.

Challenging beliefs /= thought-policing, and this is something that I would expect people to know by now, ESPECIALLY since I have said made my position clear that my goal is to challenge beliefs and that I can accept when people don't change their beliefs.

I've seen claims that most "angry atheists/antitheists" have been raised religiously and are trying to "get back". I myself am an exception to this but even if it were 99% of antitheists who were raised religiously that doesn't mean that they're coming from a place of wanting "revenge" or to "punish" the religious. In fact, I think it should be obvious that - if anything - the motivation should be that of enlightenment: these post-religious folks are aware that they were wrong in the past and (most likely through indoctrination) and seek to help others leave their misinformed/ignorant beliefs.

If you're a skeptic and not an antitheist in the regard that you think all beliefs are subject to being challenged then you are simply putting religious beliefs on a pedestal. You're attaching a lot of baggage to the label antitheist that doesn't belong there for those of us in this thread at the very least

 

[Leumas]

Hmmm? No.

Hmmm? Yes.... your posts right from the start of this thread have been nothing but attacks on atheism and atheists in post after post after post as I have demonstrated right here.

You started with your very first (post#10) accusing atheists of violently shaking children to tears shouting at them to stop believing.

Then you had the audacity to feign exasperation at the thread "becoming more a tour de force for anti-theism than the collection of spiritual "coming of age stories it was intended to be.".

Then you proceeded to accuse atheists of trying to indoctrinate and of religiously poisoning non-theism.

Then you accused atheists of concealing their hatred towards religions and wanting to exact vengeance because they have been psychologically damaged by some past religious bad experience.

You also called theists "new born anti-theistic zealots who are militant by their creed" and equated them to American puritans of the 18th and 19th centuries.

Then you carried on with claiming that these anti-theists as you so fallaciously like to slander them have had "their theist bollocks removed superficially and that they resent that fact and concentrate all their zeal and hate against the religion that doesn't let them go free in "the windmills of their minds".

This is a lot of hatred and anger you are harboring against outspoken atheists.

This is a very vitriolic anti-atheism ....I wonder why???

Nice use of crayolas, though. Very creative.

Yes...Thanks... it is a very effective technique that helps people zero in on the pith of a text.

I use it on things like buybullical verses to highlight the salient failures in logic and rationality and reason thus saving people the waste of their time trying to sift through the piles of other superfluous claptrap.

I found it necessary to do the same to your posts because they are similarly filled with failure in logic and reason buried within piles of superfluous gobbledygook.

 

[truethat]

So much to respond to and so little time. For now, I will highlight one dishonest remark



Challenging beliefs /= thought-policing, and this is something that I would expect people to know by now, ESPECIALLY since I have said made my position clear that my goal is to challenge beliefs and that I can accept when people don't change their beliefs.

I've seen claims that most "angry atheists/antitheists" have been raised religiously and are trying to "get back". I myself am an exception to this but even if it were 99% of antitheists who were raised religiously that doesn't mean that they're coming from a place of wanting "revenge" or to "punish" the religious. In fact, I think it should be obvious that - if anything - the motivation should be that of enlightenment: these post-religious folks are aware that they were wrong in the past and (most likely through indoctrination) and seek to help others leave their misinformed/ignorant beliefs.

If you're a skeptic and not an antitheist in the regard that you think all beliefs are subject to being challenged then you are simply putting religious beliefs on a pedestal. You're attaching a lot of baggage to the label antitheist that doesn't belong there for those of us in this thread at the very least

Well this is what I mean. I would never consider trying "help others" leave their beliefs. It's none of my goddamned business. (excuse the pun)

This is why I say they are like fundamentalists or fanatics trying shove their beliefs down everyone else's throats under the guise that they are trying to "save" them.

I have no idea why you would want to do that to someone. Especially a stranger.

There's a difference between that type of person and the kind of person who just doesn't believe in god or theist beliefs and carry's on in their life. The only time I'd involve myself would be for example when people post about "UNDER GOD" being needed in the pledge of allegiance. Or denying gay marriage rights. Then I'll speak up about it.

But if someone wants to believe in a "Sky Daddy" what does it have to do with me?

 

[The Big Dog]

This vitriolic bashing of outspoken atheists and trying to equate them with mentally damaged fanatic zealots ...

and he follows up with vitriolic bashing of... well basically anyone who points out that his vitriolic bashing is quite counterproductive.

 

[pharphis]

Oh come on, you know exactly what he means. I can pretty much bet that the majority of your posts on this site are on RELIGION

So why would you obsess about something you purport not to believe?

The only way to rationalize it to yourself is pretending that you are standing up against the fanatical believers. But you don't really. You (not you personally btw you in general) You treat all believers the same way.

It kinda comes across as, "Well if I can't enjoy it, I'll ruin it for everyone else as well."

Pathological is a good word to describe it, don't you think?

"why do you talk about God so much if you don't even believe in Him?"

Wow, why do skeptics talk about any proposition which they don't accept?
Wow, why do liberals talk to conservatives and vise-versa?
Wow, why do people talk to conspiracy theorists with which they don't agree?
Wow, good question

Well this is what I mean. I would never consider trying "help others" leave their beliefs. It's none of my goddamned business. (excuse the pun)

This is why I say they are like fundamentalists or fanatics trying shove their beliefs down everyone else's throats under the guise that they are trying to "save" them.

I have no idea why you would want to do that to someone. Especially a stranger.

There's a difference between that type of person and the kind of person who just doesn't believe in god or theist beliefs and carry's on in their life. The only time I'd involve myself would be for example when people post about "UNDER GOD" being needed in the pledge of allegiance. Or denying gay marriage rights. Then I'll speak up about it.

But if someone wants to believe in a "Sky Daddy" what does it have to do with me?

I've ALREADY explained this. Our beliefs inform our actions. I'd like to nip the bad ideas in the bud rather than wait for the consequences of those beliefs (the marriage equality objections, for example, as you mentioned). I don't normally want to sound like an alt med loonie but you can look at it as treating the "underlying cause of ____" where ____ = bigotry (often) or even more simply beliefs without sound reason.

 

[truethat]

"why do you talk about God so much if you don't even believe in Him?"

Wow, why do skeptics talk about any proposition which they don't expect? Wow, good question

There's a difference between discussing something and obsessing over it. The point I made about the posts before is interesting. Why would someone spend practically every single day of their lives discussing religion if they don't believe in it? It's when it is to the point of pathology that it crosses the line.

I've ALREADY explained this. Our beliefs inform our actions. I'd like to nip the bad ideas in the bud rather than wait for the consequences of those beliefs (the marriage equality objections, for example, as you mentioned). I don't normally want to sound like an alt med loonie but you can look at it as treating the "underlying cause of ____" where ____ = bigotry (often) or even more simply beliefs without sound reason.

Well sorry but you trying to "nip it in the bud" because there's a "better way" is absolutely identical to the behavior of fanatical converter Christians.

The only difference is I happen to agree with your side.

Our beliefs don't always inform our actions. I know quite a few fundamentalist Christians who feel that marriage laws are none of their business and who don't judge gay people.

When people are religious fanatics I avoid them. I don't associate with them. I've quite a few times ended friendships with people who are aggressively Christian and behave in ways that hurt other people.

But when people keep their views to themselves it's not my business to pound the **** out of them for their stupidity.

My religious friends know I don't believe their beliefs. But basically the question I have is how is your life so perfect that you have energy to spend on "fixing other people." Why not focus on living a more productive life and empowering causes you do agree with.

Sorry but your rationalization is no different to me than a fundy Christian who KNOWS that I am wrong and they want to Save me from myself.

The only logical way this makes any sense to me is that the person was "indoctrinated" (to use your word) in a very religious household that the "right way to be" means you have to get everyone else to do it your way. You have to CONVERT PEOPLE< SAVE PEOPLE< HELP THEM SEE THE TRUTH


So when that person suddenly changes their belief system they keep acting the same way. Only this time it's a different belief system. In my opinion, real atheism is not a "belief system."

 

[asydhouse]

Firmly wedged in the closet, lol. Discussing it with any of them would only cause problems which would be pointless, as they are not resolvable - as stanfr points out. I HAVE told my 20-something children that I will stand by them if they decide to leave the church or switch to some other religion.

I'm endlessly amazed by my sister-in-law's remarkable ability to hold beliefs which are utterly at odds with one another. And with logic.

My heart nearly stopped there for a moment! I read that as that you had more than 20 children! Being as you are catholic, I thought you were extremely accommodating to multiply so fruitfully even though you don't believe the command!

Thank god (so to speak) I instantly realised my mistake, but still… this is the kind of crazy thinking that religion induces, even peripherally!

I couldn't abide your sister-in-law, I'm afraid. I think someone in your circles should start an honest discussion. Your personal peace is being trashed for the sake of a false social status quo. Someone early on said to express thoughtfulness. Surely gently questioning the logic of beliefs is not a disruptor? In the sense that your own thoughts need airing, and why should your family and friends not respect your doubts and thought-processes. If you are not attacking them, but struggling with thought processes, shouldn't they respond to your doubt and troubled mind with love and compassion? If not, why keep them in your life?

Good luck. Gently does it.