The day you are saved - from religion

[Leumas]

My advice.... read the Buybull.

Read it and learn it.

Then use it .... use its words and its ideas.... to counter the claptrap coming from people like your sister-in-law.

Every time she says something... do not use science or logic or reason.... no... use the Buybull's own words with chapter and verse showing her how wrong she is.

I guarantee you that for every idea she spouts and thinks that she got from the buybull there are verses diametrically opposed to her ideas.

Even if she correctly got some of her stuff from the buybull, which is rarely, I guarantee you that there are other verses in other places of the buybull that are directly opposed.

That is what the buybull is... crap ideas and principles and morals and doctrines and dictates in one place.... directly opposed and contradicted by even further crap ideas and dictates in other places of the very same buybull.

I have throughout the years been shown without any doubt that NOTHING irks and frustrates and infuriates buybull thumpers more than having the buybull thumped right back at them making a mockery of their thumping.

I suggest you spend a few months reading the Buybull highlighting and annotating it as much as you can for later quick reference.

Get yourself a notebook and make notes about the stuff that your sister-in-law says and research the Buybull for stuff that would prove her wrong and on the next occasion use that against her.

I also find The Skeptic's Annotated Buybull web site has a wealth of ideas.... I wish I had it when I was younger.

On that site if you click on the stuff in the column on the right hand side (e.g. absurdities, injustice, cruelty etc. etc.) you will get a list of verses pertaining to the topic and contradictory and opposed verses on the topic.

Good luck with your enlightenment.... but... DO NOT KEEP QUITE about it... do not allow benighted irrational people to have the freedom to keep on spouting their crap while you cower in the corner for fear of being impolite or appearing confrontational.... that is not the way it should be in the 21st century.

 

[Son of Inigo]

sylvan8798, I feel ya.

My road out of religion was similar. In fact, it was only about 6 months ago that I have declared to myself that I am an atheist.

My mother is very religious (as was my father before he passed). My older brother is probably agnostic, while my younger brother is strongly xtian. My current wife's family is deeply religious, of the Southern Baptist flavor. Her dad is a deacon in the church, and all her siblings are regular church goers, though I suspect it is mostly to keep up appearances.

My wife found out a couple of weeks ago that I am an atheist. It pained her. When we started to get serious dating, she asked if I was a xtian, and as at the time I considered myself to be one, said yes. She said that she wanted to go to church with her husband, as her ex never did. I told her that I would if she went, but I would not initiate the going. If she got up and got ready for church, then I would go with her. Thankfully, we have only been a couple of times in the 3 years we have been married.

I have to bite my tongue a lot around her family. They were very much against the marriage equality act. It was hard not to make my feelings clear, but couldn't, as it would have offended her family. She is very afraid of disappointing her family (really her dad, she is still scared of him).

I wish we lived in a world that speaking our minds freely would have no negative repercussions, but sadly we don't. If I wish to not be excluded from all my in-law's functions, then I must be silent, and try to steer the conversation to something no controversial.

Good luck on your journey. There are those of us on it with you.

Son of Inigo

 

[Leumas]

...
My wife found out a couple of weeks ago that I am an atheist. It pained her. When we started to get serious dating, she asked if I was a xtian, and as at the time I considered myself to be one, said yes. She said that she wanted to go to church with her husband, as her ex never did. I told her that I would if she went, but I would not initiate the going. If she got up and got ready for church, then I would go with her. Thankfully, we have only been a couple of times in the 3 years we have been married.
...

Is that ex-husband?

How can she want to follow a religion that says the stuff below?

Are Jesus' very own words also to be discarded when they are inconvenient?

All you can reject to eat Buffet Christianity?


Matthew 19:3-12

• 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
• 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
• 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
• 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
• 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
• 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
• 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
• 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
• 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
• 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

 

[pharphis]

I find especially poignant that while people like your sister-in-law are allowed free reign to spout their stuff (and this is perceived to be acceptable and normal), people like you are being advised to keep their ideas to themselves and not to speak out because you might offend.

I especially find it amusing that the majority of advise to you in this thread is to stay quite while being told that it is impolite and confrontationally belligerent to object or to oppose the free reign of vociferous ignorance.

I especially find it sad that in the 21st century the advice to the enlightened is to shut up and keep their enlightenments to themselves to avoid hurting the feelings of the benighted and to avoid challenging their crap, while they get to keep on disseminating their benightedness and peddling it loudly and assertively with all the might they can muster and with impunity.

All in the name of being polite.

It is polite to refrain from opposing lies and stupidity.... just because it is coming from traditions and family.

Bad advice!!!

Exactly.

I watched the last 3 mins (this was actually one of the first videos I saw by TheraminTrees) and it truly is an amazing video. I could have saved myself years of mediocre religious skepticism if I only started with QualiaSoup and TheraminTrees. Dillahunty and Aron Ra are ok, too, from the little that I do know.

I've considered reading the bible and considered reading the skeptic's annotated bible. I feel almost as if it's not worth my time but I find every year I spend more and more time arguing with strangers about the bible and religious beliefs. It might just be worthwhile to pick it up

 

[Leumas]

I can totally relate to your predicament. Id lose my extended family and a good number of friends if they read even one of my ISF posts. Of course, with even a bit of effort anyone could 'discover' my agnostic tendencies, so I don't feel closeted, just trying to maintain the peace, as you say. It's frustrating though, since even though you know you are on the winning side, if you were to argue with the believers, they ultimately believe that they will have the last laugh after we all die, and they can smugly point to St Peter and say, "See, I was right!" Whereas, If you are correct, ultimate victory escapes you in the argument, since you turn to worm food once your time is up. Hence, it may not be worthwhile engaging in argument, cause you can never say, "I told you so!"

So is this a dexterous trick to shove in Pascal's wager through the trap door?

 

[Belgian thought]

• 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

Cheers big guy - I now can go to heaven...

And from my point, there is no need to tell a child Santa Claus does not exist, since in many cases, from and for whatever reason, they grow out of it.

Sadly, too many adults I meet, I am currently working in Spain, can't seem to get rid of another story or if they have, have jumped onto another one - that one being Indian religious bollocks - from reincarnation to fortune telling and so on.

Rather depressing to be frank.

 

[Dessi]

I can't say there was ever a single day when I lost my religious belief. It was a slow, incremental process.

A very young Dessi used to argue that evolution was false because there were no transitional fossils. Someone posted an a sequence of skulls very similar to this, and that shut me the hell up right quick. I made a comment that Darwin recanted his theory of evolution on his deathbed, but oops, couldn't cite a reputable source. So I stopped using that one.

I carried on in this fashion and very quickly realized that I know virtually nothing about the subject evolution and religion, so I preferred to sit back and let people more experienced than me handle the religious arguments. I began lurking on the Evolution vs Creation section on ChristianForums.com, where I hoped people more informed than me would put evolutionists in their place. That was not the case: I saw it with my own eyes religious apologists of all stripes arguing tooth and nail that humans are the center of the universe, that the Rapture / End Times was just a few months away, that literal actual witchcraft is a serious moral problem affecting society.

The EvC discussion was incredibly lop-sided: atheists, agnostics, and theistic evolutionists were quick to cite scientific studies, PhD dissertations, high-level calculus, and other scholarly sources in their arguments. There other side did had Answers In Genesis, which was impressive for a while, until someone on ChristianForums linked this post explaining how AIG literally re-writes history to fit it's own chronology; creationists also had the Discovery Institute, which appeared to be scholarly, at least until a poster noted that DI routinely cites researchers who do not agree with DI's conclusions. I inferred that the mindset behind creationism was not scientific, but conspiratorial: they really do believe there is a worldwide cabal of evil atheist scientists who just want to trick people into believing in evolution for some reason.

The EvC discussion did more than tear down my uninformed beliefs in evolution/creationism, it introduced me to skeptical community. I lurked on then Internet Infidels board for a while, then the Bad Astronomy forums, then the JREF/ISF board for quite a long time. I used to believe in ghosts, psychics, mind-reading, etc, but these beliefs petered out without fanfare. Although I resisted at first, belief in paranormal creatures like gods and devils likewise flickered out unceremoniously.

Although I am an atheist, I am not generally anti-theist; I am apathetic toward other people's religious beliefs, I just don't care anymore. Still, I am struck each day by the powerful discord of those who live in an apparently materialistic universe absent of paranormal activity, who simultaneously hold the unshakable conviction that paranormal creatures magically suspending the laws of physics is not only possible, but is a routine and common occurrence in everyday life.

 

[Son of Inigo]

Is that ex-husband?

How can she want to follow a religion that says the stuff below?

Are Jesus' very own words also to be discarded when they are inconvenient?

All you can reject to eat Buffet Christianity?

~snip bible versus~

Yes it was her ex-husband. She stayed with the alcoholic serial cheater for 24 years. She caught him cheating on her a week after their wedding. It was because she was raised a Southern Baptist and according to her upbringing, marriage was for life, divorce (as you showed with your bible versus) was considered a sin.

The night her divorce was final she finally told her mother what all had gone on in the marriage, the drinking, mental and emotional abuse, and cheating. Her mom actually broke down and cried, and said "oh honey, I don't believe in divorce, but I didn't know it was that bad". Religion kept her in that marriage far too long.

I to am divorced from my first wife after 20 years. I to was staying in a very unhappy marriage due to religious conviction. However my ex decided that instead of staying to face the music after I confronted her with all the money we were missing from my 1.5 years as a contractor in Iraq, that she would leave the marriage and move 3 hours away. She left the kids with me. She was cheating on me while I was away. My mother's reaction to the news was 'thank god, it's about time!"

Dessi

I too was sure I was right in trying to convince those evil evolutionist and secular scientist that the bible was right (YEC) and they were all wrong. I too lurked for ages on forums like this, looking for the perfect argument for YEC, but instead, like you, found that there were no valid, scientific arguments for YEC. I dabbled in ID for a while with reasons.org being my touchstone. But soon found that like YEC, ID could not stand up to rigorous scientific scrutiny. So I abandoned that, along with my religious beliefs.

I have said it more than once on this forum, but those of you who think engaging YEC, or ID proponents is a waste of time, it is not. Without reading take down after take down of those beliefs on this and other forums (I lurked forever) I probably would not have gotten to the point I am today. I thank each and every one of you for taking the time you did blasting away the ignorance and delusions of people like me.

 

[truethat]

I vividly remember the exact moment I stopped believing in God. It was so weird. Right after 911 I spent about 3 months trying to sort through religious beliefs. I was pretty much an agnostic or spiritualist at that point. I still had "Jesus" leanings though, just because he seemed like a pretty cool guy.

The moment I stopped I was standing outside a church, (just coincidentally) staring up at the sky and I suddenly realized "There's no one up there. Oh wow, there's nothing there at all."

I can't quite capture how it was a total epiphany even though I'd been debating it the whole time. It was suddenly crystal clear.

I agree with people in the thread who say "watch out for turning angry and bitter" and also trying to be a "converter" as well.

Frankly I have respect for (most people) who have faith. I believe in FAITH even though I don't believe in god, as long as faith is used for personal reasons of spirituality.

I never got along with what I refer to as "angry atheists" IOW people who like stomp on other people's beliefs and try to ruin everything because they are a spoiled brat who wants everything to be their way.

I've seen idiotic comments like people who have to "come out" at Thanksgiving during the prayer, or rudely snap back at family members who want them to come to church. Meh, don't go to church because it's now boring to you (probably was anyway) but there's no reason to rip a family member to shreds just because they still believe.

Also consider this. Why are there "Jews for Jesus?" Why don't they just convert? Well it's because they don't want to give up the rituals that come along with the faith. So they don't want to lose their Jewish rituals (among other issues irrelevant to this point)

You may as a former Catholic still love the beauty of a the inside of a Church, some of the songs, stained glass, Parables etc. But in this way try to think of them as just rituals. The same way someone at Comic Con is fascinated with Star Wars but doesn't believe it.

Even though your family might still believe, to you it can be more of an anthropological investigation. I've prayed with friends, gone to church etc and done other things. I'm confident in my atheism to the point that I don't need to prove it. If I'm asked to pray at dinner I'll fold my hands and sing a song in my head. So rituals and doing rituals have nothing to do with actual belief.

Just remember that you were there once too. Good luck and welcome to reality. You'll probably miss it a little as well.

 

[sylvan8798]

I particularly like this one of his.... please especially listen intently to minutes 0:26:00 to 0:29:00 they are profoundly TRUE.

Finally had time to watch this through and I'm immediately a fan.

 

[Nowhere Man]

For those who haven't found it yet, RationalWiki has a calm discussion about life after theism.

And yes, remember what it says about the waffles.

Fred

 

[Leumas]

...

...I'm confident in my atheism to the point that I ....

...
... have respect for (most people) who have faith. I believe in FAITH even though I don't believe in god, as long as faith is used for personal reasons of spirituality.

...
I agree with people in the thread who say "watch out for turning angry and bitter" and also trying to be a "converter" as well.
...
I never got along with what I refer to as "angry atheists" IOW people who like stomp on other people's beliefs and try to ruin everything because they are a spoiled brat who wants everything to be their way.

My my... what anger and disdain you are harboring against those atheists who do not subscribe to your kind of atheism which holds faith in high esteem and has faith in faith and spirituality.

But I am hoping that the statements quoted below might convince you that you are utterly and totally wrong to deride and malign those kind of atheists who help enlighten people out of the religious benightedness you claim you no longer are mired in despite having faith in faith and spirituality.

...
I have said it more than once on this forum, but those of you who think engaging YEC, or ID proponents is a waste of time, it is not. Without reading take down after take down of those beliefs on this and other forums (I lurked forever) I probably would not have gotten to the point I am today. I thank each and every one of you for taking the time you did blasting away the ignorance and delusions of people like me.

 

[The Big Dog]

So the op complains about prostylyzing theists only to be met with prostylyzing anti-theists.

I remember when I found religion. Some guy was ranting in and on about the "Buybull" and I realized that those arguments were so terrible that maybe there is something to this whole religion thing.

 

[Leumas]

So the op complains about prostylyzing theists only to be met with prostylyzing anti-theists.

....

"Prostylyzing [sic] theists" peddle and proselytize ignorance and superstition and stupidity and irrationality. They oppose progress and enlightenment while advocating backwardness and benightedness.

"Prostylyzing [sic] anti-theists" are trying to stop the above vitiation and retardation.

The former is akin to a virus invading a body while the latter is akin to the physician trying to medicate the body.

Thanks for making it clear which side you prefer.

 

[Desert Fox]

So the op complains about prostylyzing theists only to be met with prostylyzing anti-theists.

I remember when I found religion. Some guy was ranting in and on about the "Buybull" and I realized that those arguments were so terrible that maybe there is something to this whole religion thing.

There is nothing wrong with passion but the issue is if you are being lead in the wrong path.

On the OP:
Something that let me accept my atheist was "Letting Go of God" from Julia Sweeney. I took off my "God" glasses and everything seemed to actually fit better. Jame's Randi's "Flim Flam" really helped as well.

Letting Go of God:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTvx_QA6gIc

 

[Hungry81]

There is nothing wrong with passion but the issue is if you are being lead in the wrong path.

On the OP:
Something that let me accept my atheist was "Letting Go of God" from Julia Sweeney. I took off my "God" glasses and everything seemed to actually fit better. Jame's Randi's "Flim Flam" really helped as well.

Letting Go of God:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTvx_QA6gIc

The wrong path? Sounds like a religious argument to me. Poor phrasing.

 

[DarthFishy]

Carl Sagan's Contact (primarily the book but I enjoy the movie as well), really helped me.

It was a nice mid point between being religious and being atheist while allowing me to easily move towards atheism.

At the same time myself and some friends at church started questioning the church's teachings itself (can't exactly remember what about) and how it would sometimes not align with the Bible itself.

Then I think I found the JREF forums and it was all downhill from there into the pit of atheism

 

[dellarte]

http://www.amazon.com/How-Prove-Christianity-Not-True/dp/0533095638

The wrong path? Sounds like a religious argument to me. Poor phrasing.

Carl Sagan's Contact (primarily the book but I enjoy the movie as well), really helped me.

It was a nice mid point between being religious and being atheist while allowing me to easily move towards atheism.

At the same time myself and some friends at church started questioning the church's teachings itself (can't exactly remember what about) and how it would sometimes not align with the Bible itself.

Then I think I found the JREF forums and it was all downhill from there into the pit of atheism

How To Prove That Christianity Is Not True by Dr. Paige Turner may be poorly worded though she does question Christianity and its cousin Islaam.

 

[quadraginta]

Try to remember that the majority of religious people aren't bad people. They just want to get on with their lives. A lot of them donate to charity. Focus your ire on those religious people who are actually engaged in harming others, and leave the majority alone.

I am sympathetic to the point you are trying to make, and agree (somewhat) ... when those of the "majority" are taken individually.

However, I cannot absolve them of the responsibility they bear for standing silent when opportunists use religious extremism and intolerance as a populist, demagogic tool to incite. Their silence within their faith makes them accessories.

This is an "If you are not part of the solution ..." issue. If they do not bear witness against the misuse of their religions to their fellow believers, and stand out among them in opposition to such abuse then from my point of view they are just as complicit as if they had lent their wholehearted support.

In this sense, yes ... they are bad people.

Religions will continue to be used to harm others as long as the members of those religions do nothing to stop it.

 

[arthwollipot]

In this sense, yes ... they are bad people.

Religions will continue to be used to harm others as long as the members of those religions do nothing to stop it.

I don't believe that this makes them bad people. At worst, it makes them indifferent people. To me, you are a bad person if you participate in this culture, and most do not. As an example, the vast majority of Catholics do not molest children, and do not cover up child molestation. Therefore I cannot hold them guilty for the child molestation that a tiny minority of Catholics are guilty of. The Catholic laity don't actually have a great deal of power over the Church hierarchy - it is not a democracy, and they cannot directly influence what happens to a priest who has molested children. At best, they can make a complaint to a higher authority. I cannot blame them for their powerlessness.

And you're totally ignoring those religious people who do oppose religious extremism and intolerance. There are more of them than you think.

I cannot hold the majority guilty for the sins of the few. I think that's just wrong, and a form of intolerance in itself.