Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Dougm]

The tactic of pro-Amanda fans is to call people who suspect her, "liars, because you called our idol, a liar, then we'll call you one".

Amanda slandered respectable policemen and her boss. It's a fact. The thread is about the Meredith Kercher murder, not about me.

You, as usual, have completely missed the point.

My post was not about you, and, in fact, I think you are very unimportant to the case, as am I. My post was about the ideas you are putting forth.

 

[analemma]

My advice: if ever you are questioned by the police or a court, do try to be truthful, as it looks bad to be seen as a liar.

The ISC recently assured everyone that the POLICE are the LIARs in this case.
The police lied about everything.

 

[Vixen]

You have admitted twice on this thread to getting things wrong. Other posters here have cited copious proofs that other things you have claimed have been totally bogus.

Is it then fair to conclude that you are not a very well informed contributor to this thread?

Excuse me but a reasonable person knows the difference between an error, a mistake, an erroneous assumption and lie.

To call an error a lie, is incredibly childish and disingenuous, to boot.

 

[Vixen]

I don't think you're lying. What would be the point? It doesn't accomplish anything or change the truth. When you say something self evidently false like Amanda's footprints were found in Meredith's blood it's just part of the whacky belief system that makes up the typical PGP ideology. If Amanda left footprints in Meredith's blood she would currently be serving the 8th year of her prison sentence, and this thread wouldn't exist, and we wouldn't know each other. Far out

She was sprung. Well done.

 

[Vixen]

Legally, it kind of does.

As long as they get the charges and the pleading right, it's for the courts to determine the reconstruction and motive. All the prosecution does is suggest a likely one, based on their experience of crime.

 

[bagels]

"Bill", you must admit the pro-Knox lobby has strong features recognisable as cult behaviour. Extreme hatred of anyone who suspects Amanda and Raff are indeed guilty, personal abuse of same, in the face of incriminating behaviour or evidence, they stonewall, rationalise it and carry on as though they were not aware of the evidence, or of its significance.

The pro-Knox lobby cannot accept people have a right to their opinion. They see themselves as a club with special knowledge. Every so often, their "leader" pops up to issue directions on how they should behave and whom they are not allowed to talk to.

Anyone with a different opinion is reported to the mods as "slow flooding" "trolls".

Sounds like a clique to me.

Like-minded people who are congregated in an area discussing their shared interests are going to inevitably form cliquish behavior. That's basic human interaction IMO. But even here I think your interpretation of the reality of the Kercher case cliques is flawed. At Knox HQ, the IIP forums, even now a known PGP troll, regd on his Nth sock puppet account, is freely posting there in his typical outrageous and hostile tone. I wonder what would happen if I tried to post at PMF in a very civil and respectful way but continually rejected the prosecution's case while asserting the points of the defense? I suspect I wouldn't last long. I think one side has shown a much greater willingness to openly discuss the case.

 

[Bill Williams]

You have admitted twice on this thread to getting things wrong. Other posters here have cited copious proofs that other things you have claimed have been totally bogus.

Is it then fair to conclude that you are not a very well informed contributor to this thread?

Excuse me but a reasonable person knows the difference between an error, a mistake, an erroneous assumption and lie.

To call an error a lie, is incredibly childish and disingenuous, to boot.

Sigh. When has an error you've made, and admitted to, been called "a lie"? This kind of non sequitor on your part is the reason why there are so many posts about your reasonings posted here!!!!

Never mind.

 

[LondonJohn]

Let's try to move away from discussing the internet commentators and communities per se, and towards discussing the case itself (and, at the very most, discussing/dissecting/debating the the arguments put forward about this case, rather than discussing the individuals making those arguments). I think it will be in all our best interests to do so, lest the discussion (inevitably?) descend fast towards name-calling and personal insults. Thanks!

 

[Bill Williams]

"Bill", you must admit the pro-Knox lobby has strong features recognisable as cult behaviour. Extreme hatred of anyone who suspects Amanda and Raff are indeed guilty, personal abuse of same, in the face of incriminating behaviour or evidence, they stonewall, rationalise it and carry on as though they were not aware of the evidence, or of its significance.

The pro-Knox lobby cannot accept people have a right to their opinion. They see themselves as a club with special knowledge. Every so often, their "leader" pops up to issue directions on how they should behave and whom they are not allowed to talk to.

Anyone with a different opinion is reported to the mods as "slow flooding" "trolls".

Sounds like a clique to me.

"Sigh". "How" "many" "times" "have" "I", "for" "one", "said" "you" "are" "entitled" "to" "your" "opinion".

 

[Vixen]

The ISC recently assured everyone that the POLICE are the LIARs in this case.
The police lied about everything.

Analemma, Analemma, Analemma
May I have a citation please
For they did not mention any liars
So provide where they stated these.

 

[bagels]

She was sprung. Well done.

Well this is an example of the delusion I'm talking about. You think Knox was leaving smoking gun bloody footprints at a rape murder and somehow managed to avoid a conviction because of mafia connections and a PR campaign including a sitting US Senator calling the evidence a sham all to spring a psychopath for no reason. I think a rational person would take a step back and go, well, maybe there weren't bloody footprints after all, and then look at the evidence critically and realize there indeed weren't.

 

[acbytesla]

Please read Mignini's closing submissions wherein he actually quotes the series of pleas Amanda sent Mez.

Why don't you quote them and cite a source? Mignini made up a lot of nonsense in that closing. He too did not cite the actual court evidence that supported wild claims. It was there that he created a second knife, something that had never even mentioned in the trial.

Mez and her English friends had reservations about Amanda's uninhibited behaviour. I concede that could just be cultural as the English do not like "showing off".

Excuse me, how does this prove in any way that Amanda was jealous of Meredith?

I have never seen any claim Amanda took part in orgies.

The position Mez' body was found indicates a desire to imply a rape scene. (i.e., it was staged.).

Really? Did you see a photo of Meredith's body from when it was discovered? You do know that she was covered in a duvet? If they were "staging" a sexual assault, why would they cover the body? Seems counterproductive to me. And how does one be able to differentiate a crime scene of a simple sexual assault and a sex orgy gone awry? Especially when there is no evidence but of a single person.

The fact Amanda went to great lengths to conceal the crime and point the finger at someone else is highly incriminating. Nobody, including Raff himself, believes for a minute she was at Raff's all evening, as cellphone pings show otherwise.

Turning their phones off for the duration of the crime (Jodi Arias did the same) and having 101 different explanations for it, doesn't inspire confidence in their truthfulness.

That's a morass of circular reasoning Personally I don't believe they turned their phones off. That they were not in contact with the network does not mean that they turned their cells off. That area had a great many dead zones. Dr Pellero pointed out that it was impossible to get a signal in many places inside Rudy's apt.
Nevertheless turning off their cells is hardly proof of anything. Maybe they just didn't want to be disturbed while they were doing the nasty.

Her mixed DNA and footsteps in Mez' blood is not explained away by her living there.

Why not? She lived there and was walking throughout the cottage all morning.

 

[Grinder]

Seriously? Your statement to me was this:

"I'm sure the Italians would welcome you informing them their laws are written incorrectly."

The academic article I linked to in reply makes just this point numerous times. Here are just a few (my bolding):

While this new procedure has “moved the Italian system in the direction
of the American adversarial system much more than any other civil law
jurisdiction,” scholars have also been highly critical of it. Part of the criticism stems from the inability to place the Italian hybrid into either an adversarial or inquisitorial mold. Others take issue with the fact that the Italian system failed to fully transplant the adversarial model, and instead only creates an “acoustic imitation,” failing to achieve many of the protections the new criminal procedure code sought to guarantee.

Italy had high expectations for its new (1989) criminal procedure code, but the reception in Italy was decidedly mixed. Over the last thirty years the code has struggled to maintain force in the face of Constitutional Court
decisions, Parliamentary legislation, and judicial activism. Within four years of enactment, Italy’s criminal procedure code was being systematically un-done by the Constitutional Court and Parliament. The Italian Constitutional Court undermined much of the separation between the preliminary investigation and trial phases with decisions that allowed hearsay and out-of-court statements to be admitted, and found the criminal procedure code’s exclusionary rules to be unconstitutional. Furthermore, the Italian legislature mounted numerous attempts to amend the criminal procedure code in reaction to increased and deadly attacks by the Mafia in the 1990s. These attacks led to widespread calls for justice and resulted in legislation that “increased the exceptions to the rule that the only evidence admissible was that collected at trial.” However, by 1999 Italy again focused on reforming its criminal proceedings, this time for good.

Even with these adversarial reforms finally firmly in place, adversarial
procedures still face significant difficulties when judges apply them in
practice. Italian judges who have traditionally “conceived of their role as
one of seeking the truth” have struggled with their new passive roles and
have generally sought to maintain as much power over the trial process as
possible. In particular, Italian judges have seized on Article 507 of the
criminal procedure code, which authorizes judges to examine proof
suasponte “after all the evidence has been produced in court. As con-
ceived, Article 507 was meant to be a narrow exception, used sparingly by
the courts. In practice, judges, given their history with an inquisitorial
structure for criminal proceedings, have interpreted Article 507 broadly,
“effectively turn[ing] the provision into an avenue for extensive judicial
inquiry.” In all, judicial activism remains highly prevalent in Italy’s sys-
tem, with the country struggling more than expected to install neutrality
and passivity

Note that no mention is made of 530 or of multiple forms of not guilty. 530 is the law of the land and there is differences between a 1 and 2 acquittal.

I never said there wasn't resistance to the conversion. The critics think they SHOULD have made changes but they didn't.

 

[Vixen]

Well this is an example of the delusion I'm talking about. You think Knox was leaving smoking gun bloody footprints at a rape murder and somehow managed to avoid a conviction because of mafia connections and a PR campaign including a sitting US Senator calling the evidence a sham all to spring a psychopath for no reason. I think a rational person would take a step back and go, well, maybe there weren't bloody footprints after all, and then look at the evidence critically and realize there indeed weren't.

Oh right, we are expected to believe the luminol reacted with the iron elements in pineapple juice. OK, fair enough. What about the half footprint on the bathmat. Oh, er, Rudy must have made a world record triple jump and faked a hammer toe, so cops would think it was Raff's.

We-eeell.

 

[LondonJohn]

Duplicate

 

[acbytesla]

Excuse me but a reasonable person knows the difference between an error, a mistake, an erroneous assumption and lie.

To call an error a lie, is incredibly childish and disingenuous, to boot.

That's funny. So is it an error when you accuse LondonJohn of lying through omission about a barrage of desperate texts that you said Amanda sent Meredith on Halloween that you also said was proof of Amanda feeling slighted?

Or was it an error when proven wrong you then claimed it was phone calls?

Were those errors or lies?

 

[analemma]

"Bill", you must admit the pro-Knox lobby has strong features recognisable as cult behaviour. Extreme hatred of anyone who suspects Amanda and Raff are indeed guilty, personal abuse of same, in the face of incriminating behaviour or evidence, they stonewall, rationalise it and carry on as though they were not aware of the evidence, or of its significance.

The pro-Knox lobby cannot accept people have a right to their opinion. They see themselves as a club with special knowledge. Every so often, their "leader" pops up to issue directions on how they should behave and whom they are not allowed to talk to.

Anyone with a different opinion is reported to the mods as "slow flooding" "trolls".

Sounds like a clique to me.

The "pro Knox crowd" is OK with any opinion
The "pro Knox crowd" is somewhat frustrated at the fact that it has had to contend with a whole raft of trolls who, for eight years, have flat out lied and made up lies about the case.
This set of trolls includes the Italian police and lunatic, nutcase prosecutors who are out to make name for themselves by burning an American witch.
As the ISC explains "the use of logic and intuition cannot, in any way, compensate for the lack of evidence or the inefficiency of the investigations. Faced with missing, insufficient or contradictory evidence, the judge should simply accept it and issue a verdict of acquittal"
remember the lie about the Harry Potter book, that said Amanda was a LIAR because the Harry Potter book was discovered at HER house, not Raffelles?
well, the TRUTH is that Amanda HAD two BOOKS, one in each apartment, and the Italian police knew she had two books because the book is shown on the evidence collection video from Rafs apartment, but the police hid the fact their was a second book so they could declare her a liar, but the truth came out when the tape was requested by the defense and the book was on the tape and the Italian police intentionally ignored the fact so that they could call her a liar.
Make no mistake: This was a witch hunt.
There are not as many trolls left: The Italian police, prosecutors, and low level judge trolls have been slapped down by the ISC, but we have some trolls left, that do not care about the truth declared by the ISC, they just want to, as they have always done, make up lies the American witch.

 

[Vixen]

Why don't you quote them and cite a source? Mignini made up a lot of nonsense in that closing. He too did not cite the actual court evidence that supported wild claims. It was there that he created a second knife, something that had never even mentioned in the trial.



Excuse me, how does this prove in any way that Amanda was jealous of Meredith?


Really? Did you see a photo of Meredith's body from when it was discovered? You do know that she was covered in a duvet? If they were "staging" a sexual assault, why would they cover the body? Seems counterproductive to me. And how does one be able to differentiate a crime scene of a simple sexual assault and a sex orgy gone awry? Especially when there is no evidence but of a single person.


That's a morass of circular reasoning Personally I don't believe they turned their phones off. That they were not in contact with the network does not mean that they turned their cells off. That area had a great many dead zones. Dr Pellero pointed out that it was impossible to get a signal in many places inside Rudy's apt.
Nevertheless turning off their cells is hardly proof of anything. Maybe they just didn't want to be disturbed while they were doing the nasty.


Why not? She lived there and was walking throughout the cottage all morning.

See what I mean? I've explained it to you a thousand times and still you claim not to understand.


Let's try another tack. Do you think Amanda was a good friend to Mez?

 

[Vixen]

That's funny. So is it an error when you accuse LondonJohn of lying through omission about a barrage of desperate texts that you said Amanda sent Meredith on Halloween that you also said was proof of Amanda feeling slighted?

Or was it an error when proven wrong you then claimed it was phone calls.

Were those errors or lies?

We are never going to hear the end of it.

 

[bagels]

Oh right, we are expected to believe the luminol reacted with the iron elements in pineapple juice. OK, fair enough. What about the half footprint on the bathmat. Oh, er, Rudy must have made a world record triple jump and faked a hammer toe, so cops would think it was Raff's.

We-eeell.

I searched to the best of my abilities and found exactly one study that was able to demonstrate blood reacting to luminol but not TMB. A bloody print was left to soak in for 24 hours then when cleaned with bleach it left extremely faint streaks with no visible features of the print. Using just soap and water left a strong streaking reaction and tested positive to TMB. The luminol prints at the cottage were strong very visible prints with no streaking, and nobody reported smelling bleach. The forensic scientist in charge of the investigation said if the TMB is negative, "you can be sure it's not blood." There were also additional tests they could have done to salvage the evidence as blood, such as Phenolphthalin and others, though I'm not an expert.

I agree the luminol prints are a mystery of the case though. I don't know what they are. I would love to see more literature on luminol and how it reacts and what it looks like under various conditions.