Ed Beyond misinformation

[Oystein]

...What never seems to bother CTers is that Gage or AE911T, to my knowledge, has never released a technical paper to explain and/or support their hypothesis. ...

Actually, it has bothered quite a number of CTers who have in the past volunteered for Gage and got frustrated with his lack of focus, strategy, goals, planning, and his micro-management. It doesn't seem to bother Gage very much that people are leaving him - new suckers are indeed born every day!

 

[cantonear1968]

Actually, it has bothered quite a number of CTers who have in the past volunteered for Gage and got frustrated with his lack of focus, strategy, goals, planning, and his micro-management. It doesn't seem to bother Gage very much that people are leaving him - new suckers are indeed born every day!

Correction accepted!

 

[ozeco41]

Actually, it has bothered quite a number of CTers who have in the past volunteered for Gage and got frustrated with his lack of focus, strategy, goals, planning, and his micro-management. It doesn't seem to bother Gage very much that people are leaving him - new suckers are indeed born every day!

I would expect that the division reflects what I call "Genuine Truthers" - Those people who hold or have held genuine concerns about political management of 9/11 events.

There is no substance to the "Big Technical Claims" - CD at WTC times three; not that plane at Pentagon and shoot down at Shanksville.

There were and therefore still are valid concerns about political management before, during and after the event and the ongoing consequences leveraged from it.

The AE911 strategy "It was CD at WTC THEREFORE New Investigation" was futile from the outset. The technical premise of CD easily shown to be false and continuing with it deliberate lying. It is well nigh impossible to envisage ANY political lobbying initiative which questions the actions of politicians succeeding when it is based on lying.

From that perspective the gross dishonesty of AE911 must be one of the biggest barriers to progress of any genuine truth movement concerns. Drop the CD, not that plane and shoot down nonsense and there may have been a possibility of the political issues being discussed, But overall I think it is far too late. The opportunity lost - and the truth movement has itself to blame because of the reliance on false technical claims long after it was known that they were false.

So those leaving Gage's arena are IMO probably "Genuine Truthers" who have too much integrity to tolerate Gage and his scams.

 

[DGM]

I would expect that the division reflects what I call "Genuine Truthers" - Those people who hold or have held genuine concerns about political management of 9/11 events.

At this point, who could this support? LIHOP Lite? No form of MIHOP has any base in reality.

I see no forum now for actual "truthers" (by your definition). If there is, I'd like to see it, and what topics are being discussed?

 

[ozeco41]

At this point, who could this support?

(1) In terms of TIMING - don't miss my theme "too late" and all the references to missed opportunities.

(2) Then the STRUCTURE of those political activities.

LIHOP Lite? No form of MIHOP has any base in reality.

That is only true of MIHOP if you presume one single homogeneous event centrally controlled. I agree that is nonsense.

BUT reality is that the concerns which have been expressed are about PARTS of that overall picture. F'rinstance FBI and CIA not sharing info. And you can bet that some of that not sharing was MTHOP. (Made To Happen OP)

I'm well aware that both sides of Internet discussion, when discussing LIHOP and MIHOP, have assumed 9/11 was one homogeneous entity - I've posted critiques of that error many times. Also both sides traditionally ignore LIHOOI - because it doesn't fit their "single centrally controlled" model. And across the hundreds of decision makers involved in managing 9/11 you can be certain that there were lots of issues caused by LIHOOI. How important they are/were is a matter for truthers to pursue if ever they get their act together. They wont and it is too late.

So the basis of a truther genuine claim WAS there - and it has not been effectively pursued - and much of the reason IMNSHO is that truthers and debunkers have enjoyed debating round in circles about the technical issues - including the CD which never happened. Both sides comfortable with technical stuff. Debunkers comfortable because bottom line they are right - even tho most of them don't know why.

I see no forum now for actual "truthers" (by your definition). If there is, I'd like to see it, and what topics are being discussed?

If you mean internet forum you are right IMO. But the fact that the truth movement cannot present its own claims or choose the appropriate forums is not the point. Nor does it make my point wrong - in fact it proves the theme I raised - they are incompetent at making their claims.

And I'm certainly not going to make the claims for them.

 

[DGM]

If you mean internet forum you are right IMO. But the fact that the truth movement cannot present its own claims or choose the appropriate forums is not the point. Nor does it make my point wrong - in fact it proves the theme I raised - they are incompetent at making their claims.

And I'm certainly not going to make the claims for them.

Is there a forum where their claims would warrant any consideration? As far as I can see they first need to make an argument (legitimate claim). "Genuine truther" or not, none have done so. I don't see how the internet has anything to do with this.

I'm stretched to see how any flavor of the "truth movement" has done anything productive in it's sorted history.

 

[JSanderO]

The truthers present sketch concepts... DEW, controlled demolition... nano thermite... mini nukes... but never any level of detail to link their sketch concept with the actual collapses. It's all very black box... buildings are there standing and then they become a pile of rubble and dust. BECOME is the truther black box.

 

[Oystein]

I received more mails informing me of the fund-rasing progress.

Four days ago (June 18, 6pm in Central Europe) came this:

So far, we’ve raised $44,000 of our $50,000 goal, allowing us to reach 17,500 architects and engineers across the United States!

That's about +$11,250 since 5.5 days earlier.

Then last night (June 22, after 1am), this:

So far, we’ve raised about $48,000 of our $50,000 goal, allowing us to reach 19,000 architects and engineers across the United States!

That's +$4,000 in 3.5 days.

In both newsletters, they listed 9 of their esteemed members who have "reviewed" the booklet titled "Beyond Misinformation" (am I the only one who finds this title funnily ambiguous? ). They are:

Name | profession | location | Remarks
Sarah Chaplin|Architect|Surbiton, UK|
Mohibullah Durrani|Mechanical Eng. (Dr.)|Germantown, MD|professor of Engineering and Physics at Montgomery College in Maryland
Richard Gage|Snake oil salesman|CA|
Robert Korol|Prof emerit. Civil Eng.|McMaster University. Canada|Co-Author of W. Coste's "Ethics" paper. Not on the petition
Graeme MacQueen|Theologian|Dundas, Ontario|
Robert McCoy|Architect|La Canada, CA|Board member of AE911T
Kathleen McGrade|Materials Eng.|La Honda, CA|
Edward Munyak|Mech. & Fire Prot. Eng.|Los Altos Hills, CA|
Oswald Rendon-Herrero|Civil Eng.|Starkville, MS|professor emerit. Mississippi State

Still no downloadable version of the booklet.

 

[JSanderO]

echo-chambering... these guys are playing telephone. Hysterical ain't it?

 

[Mark F]

In both newsletters, they listed 9 of their esteemed members who have "reviewed" the booklet titled "Beyond Misinformation" (am I the only one who finds this title funnily ambiguous? ).

Oh most definitely not.

 

[ozeco41]

In both newsletters, they listed 9 of their esteemed members who have "reviewed" the booklet titled "Beyond Misinformation" (am I the only one who finds this title funnily ambiguous? ).

Include me as one who has a sense of humour.

 

[Oystein]

...
Then last night (June 22, after 1am), this:

That's +$4,000 in 3.5 days.
...

Six says later, two days ago, early in the morning of the 28th (in Europe), I received the mail that they now have reached their target of $50,000. That's +$2,000 in 6 days.

Claim:

We’ll also be mailing it to more than 1,250 supporters who donated so generously to make this campaign possible!

Average donation was hence almost $40, slightly more than the requested $30.


ETA: Same on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ae911truth/posts/10152907489671269

Now 20,000 less than 18,750 architects and engineers will receive unsolicited paper mail. Wow! That's very roughly 1% of the licensed A&E in America. Perhaps next year, Gage will lose the vote by 5:95 instead of 4:96?

 

[Oystein]

Beyond Misinformation E-Version now available

If you think you can now download the 50-page brochure for free, you are gullible. Of course it still costs $2.50.

They set up a fresh website for this:
http://www.beyondmisinformation.org/

We are shown two pages of credits and table of contents spread open in this photo:
http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...b65c05c47/1441677052731/Intro-open-spread.png

Please note:

• The author is Ted Walter, a lawyer I believe ("Director of Strategy and Development", AE911Truth)
• The technical editor is Chris Sarns, a carpenter
• Contributing writers are Craig McKee (a journalist), Chris Sarns (huh?) and Andrew Steele (BA in English)

Where are the architects and engineers?? (Oh, right - in the "review committee")

 

[JSanderO]

It's interesting what the truth guys consider "research"... which is mostly simply republishing (parroting) what some other truther has written. There seems to be no effort whatsoever to submit any published "report" to an independent professional, or academic institution for review and comment. They were big on "peer" review... when it's done by people who are supporters of the author's idea.

A journalist... such as a science writer, needs to be pretty up on his science when taking on some technical subject... and journalists, claim and try to be objective and are supposed to be impartial when they report. But Craig McKee is not. What should he do? He is entitled to his beliefs and to advocate for them. And in his case he uses his trade to present his ideas. But this turns out to be a sort of bait and switch / deception because he makes no effort to apply journalistic standards of verification and fact checking.

I am reminded of Ronald Regan's remark... "trust but verify"... Truth guys are all trust and no verify!

Sometimes they believe there is verification (of their beliefs) when someone come along a write what appears on the face to be a scholarly work... presumed to be done to the highest academic standards.

Grahamn MacQueen's work on the ear witnesses... the firemen etc. concluding that the perceived explosions were placed devices. In his "talks" about this paper (I have not read it) he never once discusses what ordinary things... not "demo" devices in the building which might (and likely did) explode... in the presence of heat... such as filled water pipes, fire extinguishers, huge oil filled electrical step down transformers, fluorescent lighting transformers, cooking gas piping or bottled etc. So of course there were "reports" of explosions by FDNY... how could they not mention what they heard? But proper research, or verification most likely would have revealed that the source of the explosions were building components etc. and not CD devices. How many FDNY are demolition or bomb experts in the first place?

This was very sloppy work by someone )MacQueen) with an academic background (theology). And he has convinced himself that there were FDNY witnesses to CD evidence... and has become one of the sources for the parrots and truth guy journalists.

One wonders what the motivation is? In MacQueen's case I suspect he is a pacifist and very anti war, very disenchanted with the militarism of the US government and predisposed to the notion that "national security state" creates secret false flag operations to push their agenda of hegemonic domination. He is well aware that war kills MOSTLY innocents, that the DOD is aware that war and bombing kill mostly innocents... collateral damage... and that is a calculated price to pay to achieve some strategic objective. If the US could kill 1/4 of a million dropping an atom bomb, why would they think twice about a few thousand in an "operation" like 9/11. The larger objective was ME stability and domination and control of and access to energy reserves.

++++

I just heard an interview with the French diver who placed the bombs on the Greenpeace Rainbow Warrior in Auckland Harbor, sinking it and killing one Portuguese journalist. He was apologizing and ridden with guilt for 30 years. In the interview he said he was a French secret service and the orders for the operation can from Mitterrand, the head of the French government and army... and that they were intending NOT to kill anyone but just sink the ship. Obviously they had no idea of the strength of the explosives... and so it was an ill conceived operation. The diver said he was... just following orders... and it was believed that the KGB has infiltrated Greenpeace.

Greenpeace was perceived as a barrier to the interests of the nuclear and energy industries who are major polluters of the oceans. Industry and environments are at loggerheads and industry's interests are protected by governments and seen to be one and the same.

The Rainbow Warrior account clearly indicates how flawed thinking and practice is. And especially the ever present meme of NOT thinking and "following orders" or not thinking and repeating what someone else (you respect) says... and of course how indifferent governments are to human life. There were resignations in the French government, but not Mitterrand. And it took 30 years and some excellent journalism to reveal the truth here... and there WERE confessions.

How ironic it is that the "behavior" and "thinking" of the truth guys follows the same self serving flawed patterns as the governments which they oppose!!!!

 

[rjh01]

Beyond Misinformation E-Version now available

If you think you can now download the 50-page brochure for free, you are gullible. Of course it still costs $2.50.

They set up a fresh website for this:
http://www.beyondmisinformation.org/

We are shown two pages of credits and table of contents spread open in this photo:
http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...b65c05c47/1441677052731/Intro-open-spread.png

Please note:

• The author is Ted Walter, a lawyer I believe ("Director of Strategy and Development", AE911Truth)
• The technical editor is Chris Sarns, a carpenter
• Contributing writers are Craig McKee (a journalist), Chris Sarns (huh?) and Andrew Steele (BA in English)

Where are the architects and engineers?? (Oh, right - in the "review committee")

I wonder what role the "review committee" had? Maybe they were sent a copy and asked their opinion. This opinion would then be ignored. But they could say that the paper was reviewed by these people.

Edit. I find it odd that they charge $2.50 for a copy, then they say distribute it (for free) to others.

 

[MileHighMadness]

Edit. I find it odd that they charge $2.50 for a copy, then they say distribute it (for free) to others.

It is about the money, it is always about the money.

 

[Oystein]

I wonder what role the "review committee" had? Maybe they were sent a copy and asked their opinion. This opinion would then be ignored. But they could say that the paper was reviewed by these people.

Edit. I find it odd that they charge $2.50 for a copy, then they say distribute it (for free) to others.

The review committee, they are all signatories of Gage's petition, so they are properly biased, and as such may have given slightly more than no input.

One interesting bit of trivia: Neither Author Ted Walter, no less than a "Director" of AE911Truth (I presume this means he is a Board member), nor contributor Craig McKee have signed the petition.


By the way, Walter as well as Kelly David have been Board members for at least half a year, and yet they don't appear as such on the homepage, ae911truth.org. Just one more hint that Gage's organization isn't functioning. I think Walter is doing his thing, benefitting from Gage's money, and Gage is happy that at least someone is getting something done.

 

[Oystein]

It is about the money, it is always about the money.

Exactly. Instead of informing the world by allowing for the e-version to go viral and be read by billions, they opt for the steady income.

 

[FalseFlag]

Three pages of comments about a booklet, but no one has read the booklet.

Yep, that's about right for the members of this forum.

Here, let me change that.

Make sure your heads don't explode when they are confronted with truth, facts, and legitimate science. Actually...nevermind.

 

[Oystein]

Three pages of comments about a booklet, but no one has read the booklet.

Yep, that's about right for the members of this forum.

Here, let me change that.

Make sure your heads don't explode when they are confronted with truth, facts, and legitimate science. Actually...nevermind.

Thanks for posting this.
As exptected, the booklet repeats many of the same old lies.

Poking into the file at random, here a few quick examples of lies:

"World Trade Center Building 7 (WTC 7) ... collapsed ... into its own footprint"
"COMMON MISUNDERSTANDINGS [include] “The fires melted the steel.”"
"Constant Acceleration through the Path of Greatest Resistance"
"Today, Bazant and Le’s paper is the sole piece of analysis upon which the official hypothesis’ explanation for the total collapse of WTC 1 and WTC 2 rests."
"near-total pulverization of their concrete flooring"
"the collapses [of WTC1+2] occurred “essentially in free fall.”"
"a large percentage of the buildings’ materials was ejected upwards and laterally"
"NIST’s model of WTC 7’s collapse shows large deformations to the exterior of WTC 7" [caption to an image of the inapplicable of several NIST simulations]
"Kevin McPadden...: ... BA-BOOOOOM!"
"About seven seconds after [Ashleigh Banfield] hears the loud sound, WTC 7 collapses."
"Features Indicative of Nano-thermite [include] ... [ignition] at ... 430°C"
"The presence of the above-described substance in the WTC dust strongly suggests that nano-thermite was used in the destruction of WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7."

This after a quick "diagonal" reading.

Many more lies by innuendo and errors of logic. The usual balloney.


I found this interesting:

A simple analysis of the approximate amount of energy required to pulverize the concrete and dismember the steel structures indicates that about 1,255 gigajoules of energy would have been required, far exceeding the estimated 508 gigajoules of gravitational potential energy contained in the buildings.

His estimate of 508 GJ potential energy in a tower is plausible (I usually go with Greg Urich's 480 GJ, as I eplain in my other blog. if the 1,255 GJ needed to crush a tower the way Walter imagines were true, then he must believe that there were explosives releasing at least 747 GJ - that's about 180 tons of TNT. He can't be serious. That's 400,000 charges of 1 pound each, or 40,000 charges of 10 pounds each. Crazy crazy stuff.