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Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Actually it is more likely that a murder is committed by a mob with no motive than by an individual.

The Supreme Court finally agrees with me that the investigation was so botched that no verdict can be reached. I don't for a second believe the conspiracy theory of Mignini et al. and therefore need not explain it as the PGP do.

What evil lurks in the hearts of men - only the Shadow knows.

Citations for the highlighted statement, please.

I suggest the motives of mobs may be, as non-exclusive examples, hatred of the victim(s) due to ethnic, racial, or religious differences, or hatred of or desire to punish an individual (the victim) believed to have committed an offense by persons in the mob.
 
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And disproves the need for a motive. Are you saying as some have that because lacking a motive she couldn't be guilty?



Droll. The motive could be that she didn't like Thursdays. Or Fridays depending on TOD. Vixen has a motive or many motives.

I would buy that if we are talking about a single person. I don't when we are talking about 3.
 
There is nothing stronger than circumstantial evidence. Motive is nice to tidy up and make people feel better about why the crime, especially violent crime, was committed.

If Marasca said that circumstantial evidence requires a motive, he is another Italian idiot jurist.

Circumstantial evidence is far more reliable (when following protocol etc.) than direct evidence.

If I read it correctly, Marasca said motive is necessary in a case based on circumstantial evidence, not merely because it his opinion, but as a matter of well settled law in Italy.

So in fairness, if you want to dump on the motivation report on this issue, its not just Marasca, its Italian jurisprudence.

I don't agree with your view on this point on the merits, but it wasn't just Marasca freewheeling on his own.

I think the notion that motive ties circumstantial evidence together, is logical.

Marasca also discusses, external and internal logic, as part of the evaluation.

IMO, Marasca is not getting the respect he deserves. (excluding the dumbass portions of the report).
 
Citations for the highlighted statement, please.

I suggest the motives of mobs may be, as non-exclusive examples, hatred of the victim(s) due to ethnic, racial, or religious differences, or hatred of or desire to punish an individual (the victim) believed to have committed an offense by persons in the mob.

After your citations .
 
Citations for the highlighted statement, please.

I suggest the motives of mobs may be, as non-exclusive examples, hatred of the victim(s) due to ethnic, racial, or religious differences, or hatred of or desire to punish an individual (the victim) believed to have committed an offense by persons in the mob.

Yea, what did the 3 suspects have in common? No 2 are even citizens of the same country. Two had never met. Two had just barely met, The one that the gulters suggest had the prime motive could barely speak the language of the other two. Two are college educated and the third was not.

Yea, that has the makings of a mob.
 
I would buy that if we are talking about a single person. I don't when we are talking about 3.

If I were you I'd be typing in all caps. Take the Mignini theory and toss it out the broken window. Try to imagine that Amanda and/or Raf did kill Meredith and Rudi just happened to be the unlucky robber or Don Juan caught in the crime.

Only a very few people outside the offices of the Perugian prosecutors believe their version of events.

I know that everyone here, with few exceptions, is sure they know exactly how the crime occurred but it certainly hasn't been proven. Perhaps it did occur just as the vast majority have it figured.

Maybe the earth is the center of the universe as the vast majority agreed on that as well :p
 
Social psychology does offer relevant explanations for group or mob mentality and violence. When people are part of a group, they often experience deindividuation, or a loss of self-awareness. When people deindividuate, they are less likely to follow normal restraints and inhibitions and more likely to lose their sense of individual identity. Groups can generate a sense of emotional excitement, which can lead to the provocation of behaviors that a person would not typically engage in if alone. - See more at: http://source.southuniversity.edu/examining-the-mob-mentality-31395.aspx#sthash.BQXLGevL.dpuf
 
If I were you I'd be typing in all caps. Take the Mignini theory and toss it out the broken window. Try to imagine that Amanda and/or Raf did kill Meredith and Rudi just happened to be the unlucky robber or Don Juan caught in the crime.

Only a very few people outside the offices of the Perugian prosecutors believe their version of events.

I know that everyone here, with few exceptions, is sure they know exactly how the crime occurred but it certainly hasn't been proven. Perhaps it did occur just as the vast majority have it figured.

Maybe the earth is the center of the universe as the vast majority agreed on that as well :p

With the present evidence I cant. Change all the circumstances and evidence and it's a totally different case. It's the idea that 3 people of such short acquaintance that makes this near impossible for me to believe.
 
With the present evidence I cant. Change all the circumstances and evidence and it's a totally different case. It's the idea that 3 people of such short acquaintance that makes this near impossible for me to believe.

Three people didn't conspire. Rudi was there but was caught up in the events he didn't initiate. Drop the Mignini theory.

The circumstances remain the same. Try hard.
 
Three people didn't conspire. Rudi was there but was caught up in the events he didn't initiate. Drop the Mignini theory.

The circumstances remain the same. Try hard.

You really think the PIP theory isn't established beyond reasonable doubt?

Edit: the rudy lone attacker theory I mean
 
Three people didn't conspire. Rudi was there but was caught up in the events he didn't initiate. Drop the Mignini theory.

The circumstances remain the same. Try hard.

Then Amanda and Raff would leave solid physical evidence at the crime scene - Bloody footprints, fingerprints, likely Amanda and/or Raff's DNA under Meredeth's fingernails, etc.

If there was a clean up, there would be real evidence of a clean up where everything is mysteriously clean.
 
Three people didn't conspire. Rudi was there but was caught up in the events he didn't initiate. Drop the Mignini theory.

The circumstances remain the same. Try hard.

There is still the problem that Amanda and Raffaele barely knew each other. The aftermath makes it even more unbelievable IMO. One or all 3 would buckle and blame it on the others. Rudy knowing that Amanda and Raffaele had been arrested would have been singing like a canary.

Sorry, still doesn't work.
 
Three people didn't conspire. Rudi was there but was caught up in the events he didn't initiate. Drop the Mignini theory.

The circumstances remain the same. Try hard.

I know you think I'm being obstinate. But I agree with you that significant incriminating makes motive an irrelevant concern. And we have argued about this many times. Nevertheless, I do believe that there may be an area say on a graph where the combination of motive and imperfect evidence come together where as a juror one may find a defendant guilty but without the motive it would be impossible.

I just can't say what those circumstances would be.
 
Has it been clearly shown that Meredith had flown back to London in October? If not perhaps this will suffice:


There was a large number of officials inside the morgue, including the Chief of Police and the head of the homicide squad. Many of them were close to tears.

It was time to see my daughter. But I could not face going in. The brutal reality of having to see what had been done to Meredith had not really hit home. A small man from the mortuary approached Arline and Stephanie and, leaving me behind, they went through the doors. I could go no further.


For me, it would have put a full stop to my memories. I had seen her only a couple of weeks before when she had flown back to London to buy some winter clothes.

We had met for a coffee at a small Italian restaurant in Croydon, a place where we met often.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...anda-Knox-justice-daughter.html#ixzz3ldy5KHe1

This is from John Kercher's book.


Thanks, I never heard that claim before. However, I have heard many people assert that there are many blatant LIES and/or (innocent?) distortions in John Kercher's book, so his book must be taken with a large grain of salt.

While Meredith was scheduled to fly home in early November, it's certainly possible that she missed home and did a quick trip in early October as ONLY her father claims.

If Meredith's father's other unsubstantiated assertion is correct, that Meredith had kavetched about Amanda all the way home in early October, then it's rather surprising that Meredith returned to Perugia from England and then went to a chocolate festival, and then the next week to a concert, with Amanda.
 
So - Machiavelli is part of another team translating, mediating or being a diplomat for an English-language version of the Marasca report.

I'll bet anyone how "forte sospetto" will be interpreted!!!!!!
 
After your citations .

Lynching, the practice of murdering people by extrajudicial mob action, occurred in the United States chiefly from the late 18th century through the 1960s. Lynchings took place most frequently against African-American men in the southern U.S. after the American Civil War and the emancipation of all slaves, and particularly from 1890 to the 1920s, with a peak in 1892. Lynchings were also very common in the Old West, where victims were primarily men of Mexican and Chinese minorities, although whites were also lynched.

...The granting of U.S. Constitutional rights to freedmen after the American Civil War during the Reconstruction era (1865–1877) aroused anxieties among white Southerners, who were unwilling to concede such social status to African Americans. They blamed the freedmen for their own wartime hardship, economic loss, and loss of social and political privilege. During Reconstruction, freedmen and whites active in the pursuit of civil rights, were sometimes lynched in the South. In addition, blacks were intimidated and attacked to prevent their voting, with violence increasing around elections from 1868 into the late 1870s....

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

The above is only one example of the motive(s) for mob murders.

Do you have counter-examples where there was no motive for a mob murder, including no motive among the leaders of the mob?
 
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And disproves the need for a motive. Are you saying as some have that because lacking a motive she couldn't be guilty?
Yes, axiomatically speaking.

Droll. The motive could be that she didn't like Thursdays. Or Fridays depending on TOD. Vixen has a motive or many motives.
It is not credible that Amanda murdered Meredith for this reason. I don't get the reference to Vixen.
 
Dr Gill writes a commercial book for the popular market, to line his coffers, and you believe this is of evidentiary standard in a court of law? This is a murder, not a parlour game.

Of course, scientists write books all the time about their field of expertise. A Brief History of Time (Stephen Hawking), the Feynman Lectures on Physics, the Principia (Isaac Newton). One might say it is common, actually, as the entire point of being an academic is to publish their work for other people to read and understand. I certainly hope you understand that the publication of work from a leading expert in the field is not evidence that the content of the book is wrong. An expert wouldn't publish incorrect information for a minute personal gain, because that would completely destroy his reputation and his career. That would make literally no sense!

Now, there are situations where non-experts may write a book to "line his/her coffers" as you say, and to exploit a situation for their own personal benefit. With respect to this case, can you think of any examples of this, Vixen? Do you think doing such a thing may taint their perspective and bias his/her perspective a bit, Vixen?

Gill didn't even see the evidence first hand.

Well, no kidding! He wasn't there when the evidence was collected, as that would have been impossible since he wasn't involved in the evidence collection! And there wasn't enough material for Stefanoni to repeat the LCN analysis of the knife more than once, as required by international protocol to insure reliability (so innocent people don't get convicted on misleading evidence), remember? So how is Gill supposed to "see" evidence first hand that was either used up, destroyed by Stefanoni (remember how she destroyed the bra clasp by storing it incorrectly?), or collected 7 years ago?

Regardless, it is normal to write an analysis of evidence that you don't "see first hand". That you think this is unusual is one of the more ridiculous things you have said. It literally happens all the time in science. This is why scientists document their work. It's kind of the entire point of what they do; perform experiments and those experiments are reviewed by other people. This is how the entire scientific process works.

He's a disgrace.

Well, he's actually quite literally one of the very top people in forensic genetics, and one of the founding fathers of the entire field. But I guess since he doesn't agree with you that makes him a disgrace.

Out of curiosity: if the fact that one of the very top scientific experts in their field publishes a factual analysis proving the DNA evidence against Amanda and Raffaele was unreliable and misleading does not convince you, what will? You literally cannot get a stronger refutation than that, short of gaining an expertise in molecular biology and looking at the evidence yourself (hint: everyone that has an expertise in molecular biology and has looked at the evidence themselves agrees with Gill). Instead, rather than incorporating this information and updating your belief appropriately, the world leading expert becomes a "disgrace" in your mind. Do you see a problem with this, Vixen? I ask again, if the opinion of the top expert in the field doesn't change your mind, and the opinion of every other expert in the field that has reviewed the case doesn't change your mind, and the laws of molecular genetics don't change your mind, what will?
 
The blood washed away, obviously. You can see the striation on the knife where it was plainly scoured by some kind of steel wool, or abrasive bleach powder. The DNA found was lodged within one of these grooves. There is no law that says it has to be blood. It could be skin, or tissue.

You are completely misunderstanding the argument.

It doesn't matter if the DNA comes from skin, tissue, blood, or whatever else. Any process that would remove all of the blood would remove the DNA as well. This is true no matter the source of the DNA.

A proof: assume the DNA came from skin tissue. The knife was covered in blood. It is then cleaned to remove all traces of blood such that it tests negative for blood under the most sensitive forensic testing. THAT CLEANING PROCESS WOULD REMOVE THE DNA AS WELL (and it would remove the DNA more readily and easily than the blood). This is true even if the DNA DID NOT COME FROM BLOOD. The source doesn't matter. Any method used to remove the blood that thoroughly would completely destroy and remove the DNA as well (irrespective of source). I mean, this is how a forensic testing lab cleans and decontaminates as well -- if you can't remove DNA through a thorough cleaning then no DNA testing, no matter how rigorous, would be reliable because DNA could always be stuck in an invisible groove and impervious to cleaning.

If the knife was the murder weapon, it would be covered in both blood and the victim's DNA. Since there was zero blood under the most sensitive forensic testing, that means it either a) wasn't used as the murder weapon, or b) was cleaned extremely thoroughly. Since starch was found on the blade, we know b) is not true. Since Amanda's DNA was found on the handle, we know b) isn't true (cleaning would remove DNA, whether the source of the DNA was blood, tissue, skin, or whatever else. It's important you understand this.). Since the blade didn't match the wounds, we know b) isn't true. Thus a) must be true. The knife wasn't used as the murder weapon and it was entirely fabricated as a piece of evidence against Amanda and Raffaele using bad and misleading science. Proper LCN protocol wasn't followed. Therefore we know Meredith's profile was due to contamination. We know Amanda's DNA profile was on the handle because she used the knife for cooking (because she did indeed use the knife for cooking; and there was starch on the blade). This is the same opinion as every expert who has thoroughly examined the evidence and/or the documentation of the evidence. This is logically airtight proof that the knife was not connected to the murder.
 
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You really think the PIP theory isn't established beyond reasonable doubt?

Edit: the rudy lone attacker theory I mean

Given the complete trash work by the ILE how can anyone know what happened? What did they miss? What did they hide?
 
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