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The "28 pages" thread

Sabrina, do I get this right?

If Congress passes a law with majorities of both the Senate and Congress, and the signature of the President, that orders the declassification and release of these papers, then a FDO could stand up and say "Urrr... no", and there is nothing Congress and the President can do? :eek:...
Not so Oystein.

The FDO is an executive role officer whose defined job is to apply the law. Currently the FDO is applying current law. If the law changes he/she would (should :rolleyes:) apply the new law.

There is an overriding consideration in the US scene. The Government - Congress as the legislative arm - is NOT free and unfettered to finally determine what should be the law.

The checks and balances provisions of the US Constitution empower the US Supreme Court to assess constitutionality of legislation and to "strike down" any which are determined by the USSC to be unconstitutional.

Because that is of course what HR14 and SB whatwasthenumber are aiming at - to be voted into law eventually.
I'll reserve comment - there are three broad possibilities with different impacts - no point musing on outcomes without knowing which track is being tried out.

Or, if the President goes to the FDO and says "I know you have your criteria, but I am the President - release this!", it's not going to happen?
Strictly - no - shouldn't happen. In pragmatic reality it depends on the seriousness of the issue. Staff subordinate to Presidents, Prime Ministers, Chancellors, whatever often act the way "The Boss" wants plus a lot of routine high level admin happens on either consensus or majority opinion out of committees and think tanks. The committee member with portfolio responsibility for the issue involved ends up implementing the choice. That is why I've said a couple of times that "the President imposed the bans" could well be close to true even tho the Pres did not actually sign the implementation documents.
 
Let me put my argument from its head on its feet and carve out the essence: It's

"Where there is a political will, there is a procedural way"

Also, I think there is probably no clear, objective answer to the question whether or not the 28 pages compromise "national security" or not. I do not subscribe to the theory that an FDO would know this better than a political leader - the FDO gets to interprete the criteria established by the prevailing political leadership, and those criteria might change.

So, there are some people with the political will to reconsider this particular decision, and I, being removed from the process and also in the dark about the exact content, can at least point to some political leaders who know more, aren't obvious morons, and are in appropriate political positions to form an intelligent political opinion about the specific issue.

Some are lobbying for this political will to spread such that the President or - in case the President remains unimpressed - the appropriate law-making body adopt the stance and act. I am both monitoring this lobby, and expressing my latent support.

I am of course NOT saying that due procedure must be cut or abandoned just because a couple of politicians say so.
 
Let me put my argument from its head on its feet and carve out the essence: It's

"Where there is a political will, there is a procedural way"
Yes.
Also, I think there is probably no clear, objective answer to the question whether or not the 28 pages compromise "national security" or not. I do not subscribe to the theory that an FDO would know this better than a political leader - the FDO gets to interprete the criteria established by the prevailing political leadership, and those criteria might change.
Which is what I thought I said. ;)
 
Without having read the 28 pages in question, right now, the FDO that reviewed them, for better or worse, deemed them something that should be classified according to the current regulations, which I've already linked to upthread. It's unlikely that an FDO did NOT review them, as to the best of my knowledge that's pretty much the last step for all agencies that release reporting in the US government. Given that, I still find it hard to believe that any credence is put toward the assertions of the senator and representative who claim they have read the pages and believe they should not be classified; it's not their call to make, ultimately. That's the thing about legislation; someone could introduce a bill wherein they claim unequivocally that the sky is green, but that doesn't make it any less blue no matter how much support said person gains for their bill. What the senator and representative SHOULD be doing if they truly feel this strongly about it is calling for a review/revision of the regulation in question, not introducing frivolous bills regarding pages in a report that was released nearly fifteen years ago and will be unclassified in ten to thirty-some years time anyway, depending on the source of the information in question. Seems to me there are better things these guys can do with their time.
 
The reason it's so important right now is because on 8/9 it was reported that Judge George Daniels, the judge presiding over the lawsuit between Saudi Arabia and the 9/11 Families, was going to take 60-90 days to decide on whether or not he's going to let the trial continue. If the families could introduce the 28 pages as evidence, it may influence him to let the trial continue. This is a judge that has a history of letting Saudis off the hook regarding 9/11. He just did it on 8/15. It has been reported on in the past that he has problems. He was the judge to rule that Iran was responsible for 9/11. I believe we need to do everything we can to try and put the odds in the families' favor. There's a petition at 28pages.org that will force the White House to respond if we get 100k signatures. Please go sign and promote it. Thank you.
 
The reason it's so important right now is because on 8/9 it was reported that Judge George Daniels, the judge presiding over the lawsuit between Saudi Arabia and the 9/11 Families, was going to take 60-90 days to decide on whether or not he's going to let the trial continue. If the families could introduce the 28 pages as evidence, it may influence him to let the trial continue. This is a judge that has a history of letting Saudis off the hook regarding 9/11. He just did it on 8/15. It has been reported on in the past that he has problems. He was the judge to rule that Iran was responsible for 9/11. I believe we need to do everything we can to try and put the odds in the families' favor. There's a petition at 28pages.org that will force the White House to respond if we get 100k signatures. Please go sign and promote it. Thank you.
Is your plea based on anything other than what you hope the pages contain? If so, what?

Welcome BTW............... :)
 
Hi, everybody. I'm Brian McGlinchey, director of 28Pages.org, and I found this conversation when I saw some traffic to 28Pages.org originating from it.

I thought I'd visit to correct a few things that have been said along the way here, starting with the second sentence: "Some truthers have set up a pretty good page..."

Naturally, I wholeheartedly agree with the "pretty good" part (thanks!), but I'm not sure what to make of your assertion that 28Pages.org is the product of "truthers." My own interest and involvement in this issue springs from an interest in foreign policy, the war on terror and government transparency.

I doubt that, if I had created a site promoting the declassification of, say, the Senate torture report, you'd have claimed it to be the work of "truthers" or "conspiracy theorists," whatever those vague terms mean to you. However, since this issue touches 9/11, it seems there's an automatic presumption that I must be in league with people who tout theories about the towers being felled by remote-control airplanes, directed energy weapons, or---my new-found favorite---a "clandestine remote controlled anti-gravity ball." That's not the case, and prior to my launch of the site, I had no specific interest in 9/11. My creation of 28Pages.org was prompted by watching Capitol Hill press conference on the topic, and I created it without collaborating with or consulting anybody at all.

Judging from some of the comments, it seems some participants in this conversation have spent very little, if any, time actually examining 28Pages.org or the topic. If you do, you'll find the 28 pages to be an issue of government transparency that's firmly rooted in reason, one that has been explored by serious journalists from the New York Times, PBS, the Boston Globe, The New Yorker, MSNBC, CNN, al Jazeera, and on and on...sometimes with my help.

It's disappointing that Oystein implied that only "losers on the far fringe of society" might support heightened government transparency when it comes to indications of foreign government support of the 9/11 hijackers. Some of those most eager to see the release of the 28 pages are 9/11 family members and survivors who are trying to achieve some measure of justice against government sponsors of terror in the courtroom. Others include current and former legislators, FBI and NSA whistleblowers, investigative journalists and individual citizens like me who feel that the release of this material is necessary for the American people and citizens around the world to reach informed opinions about the past and future trajectory of American policies, while better understanding the performance of U.S. national security agencies leading up to 9/11.

Former Senator Bob Graham has said that, by keeping Saudi ties to 9/11 secret---and thus shielding the kingdom from scrutiny of its funding of extremists---the Bush and Obama administrations enabled the rise of ISIS. And a senior White House official told investigative journalists Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan, "If the 28 pages were to be made public, I have no question that the entire relationship with Saudi Arabia would change overnight." That's not "conspiracy theory," it's geopolitics.

Some posters here seem to embrace a general presumption that classified information is always made secret and kept secret for good reason. Government transparency experts far from the field of 9/11 would certainly beg to differ. Indeed, a Glenn Greenwald column noted that one of the most telling aspects of the vast trove of documents leaked by Edward Snowden was the fact that so many of documents marked "TOP SECRET" dealt with mundane office matters along the lines of the location of the new copy machine. Over-classification is a well-documented epidemic.

Lending some relevant insight into that epidemic at a 28 pages press conference earlier this year, former Senate intelligence committee chairman Bob Graham said, "Much of what passes for classification for national security reasons is really classified because it would disclose incompetence. And since the people who are classifying are also often the subject of the materials, they have an institutional interest in avoiding exposure of their incompetence.”

The 28 pages are part of an 800+ page report that's sprinkled with isolated redactions of names and places. Congressman Stephen Lynch (D-MA), no stranger to reading classified material, has emphasized how extraordinary it is for an entire 28-page chapter to be completely blanked out. Many who have read those pages--like Graham, who essentially wrote them---are adamant that there's no national security reason for that extraordinary level of redaction.

Sabrina makes assumptions about who was responsible for classifying the 28 pages, implying the decision happened well below presidential level by duty-bound minions passing impartial judgement on the risk to national security without political influence. That simply wasn't the case. As Bob Graham described in his book, "Intelligence Matters," the redactions were the subject of intense and prolonged negotiations between the joint congressional inquiry staff and the White House, and President Bush himself made a public statement defending his administration's redaction decisions on the final public version of the report. (And this wasn't a report to the president by subordinates; it was a report of a congressional inquiry.)

Respectfully, Sabrina, it is also incorrect to say that members of congress "have NO, ZERO, NADA, ZILCH authority to make that determination" about whether the material should be declassified. As described on the "Declassification by Congress" page at 28Pages.org, there are rules by which either the House or Senate can vote to declassify information, even over the president's objection.

Finally, it's as far-fetched as a clandestine, remote-controlled anti-gravity ball to suggest that members of Congress who are pursuing this issue do so largely for political gain. As this very thread demonstrates, politicians involve themselves in this issue at the peril of ridicule by people who, without examining the issue with an open mind, assume any 9/11-related inquiry must be the ravings of mindless oddballs. Relative to championing issues like tax reform, education, defense spending, etc, the political risk-reward profile of this issue is positively unattractive. Also, note that Bob Graham left the Senate years ago, but has continued to champion the issue long after he had votes at stake.

If you take a moment to watch press conference video* of the congressional leaders of this effort, you'll better understand their motives and may be struck by their apparent sincerity. I've concluded they are motivated by a sincere belief that 9/11 family members deserve to know what the government knows about those who aided and abetted the murders of their loved ones, and that the American people and Congress, weighing life-and-death decisions about counter-terror policies aimed at preventing the "next 9/11," will be well-served by a fuller understanding of the original 9/11.

To that point, the leader of this effort in the House, Walter Jones (R-NC), speaking remorsefully about his yea vote on the invasion of Iraq, recently said, "Because I did not do my job then, I helped kill 4,000 Americans, and I will go to my grave regretting that." That's a remarkable statement from any politician, let alone a Republican one. I think his 28 pages involvement is driven by a desire to ensure that both Congress and the people have a fuller understanding of the facts as they weigh new decisions on foreign intervention in the name of countering terrorism.

You will, of course, reach your own conclusions about the effort to declassify the 28 pages and my motives for championing it. However, I hope that you can do so absent the kind of preconceived notions, baseless assumptions and confirmation bias that typify the worst types of "conspiracy theorists" you so enjoy lampooning.

Best wishes to all of you, and my sincerest thanks to Mark F for joining the petition.

* Given my new account status, I can't hyperlink, but you can go to 28Pages.org and search "Jan. 7" or "must-read quotes"
 
Is your plea based on anything other than what you hope the pages contain? If so, what?

Welcome BTW............... :)

My "plea" is based on exactly what I said. "I believe we need to do everything we can to try and put the odds in the families' favor."
 
I am all for less secrecy and less classification and more transparency... all attributes of democracy and an open society. Why should Saudis be protected?
 
My "plea" is based on exactly what I said. "I believe we need to do everything we can to try and put the odds in the families' favor."

Unfortunately some of the "families" have fallen for truther nonsense... and that's sad...
 
My "plea" is based on exactly what I said. "I believe we need to do everything we can to try and put the odds in the families' favor."
I read this. What I don't like is the wording that sounds more like a witch hunt. What exactly are they hoping to find in those pages that is not known to date?

Was there Saudi involvement in 9/11? Hell yeah. The problem lies with the separation of Saudi state and Saudi royalty. There's a lot of light treading needed it that area.

I've seen no evidence that the Saudi state was involved.
 
I've been calling for the release of these pages for as long as I can remember. The last time there was a big push is when the September Eleventh Advocates released a petition calling for the declassification of those and other documents. We managed to get over 17k signatures. That was late 2006. Everything we do is considered "truther nonsense" by some.
 
Hi, everybody. I'm Brian McGlinchey, director of 28Pages.org, and I found this conversation when I saw some traffic to 28Pages.org originating from it.

I thought I'd visit to correct a few things that have been said along the way here, starting with the second sentence: "Some truthers have set up a pretty good page..."

Naturally, I wholeheartedly agree with the "pretty good" part (thanks!), but I'm not sure what to make of your assertion that 28Pages.org is the product of "truthers." My own interest and involvement in this issue springs from an interest in foreign policy, the war on terror and government transparency.
Welcome Brian.

I comprehend and empathise with you taking offense at the use of the term truthers.

Are you aware that the title originated with persons who held genuine concerns abut the management of the events of 9./11 - before, during and after. Those in the "Truth Movement" adopted the title for themselves but, sadly, what was originally an honorable self applied term has been debased. However your concerns are within the original scope of the label. So legitimately "truther" within the original intent of the label.

My own perspective actually aligns with you or much of what you are trying to seek. The genuine concerns over 9/11 can legitimately be categorised as "technical" and "the rest" most of which fall into the political arena.

My background is a career in civil engineering, military engineering and engineering management. MY interest focused on explaining the Twin Towers collapses to those who do not have the engineering skills needed. Which includes a surprising number of engineers.

Simply put I see no case for claims of CD at the WTC. BUT I think that Truth Movement organisations which continue to pursue demonstrably false technical claims such as CD have done - continue to do - a disservice to those who like yourself want to question the political issues involved in or arising from 9/11.

So go for it. I doubt that the political issues are capable of resolution in an Internet Forum setting - we cannot even agree "No CD at WTC"; "It was that plane which hit Pentagon" and "the one at Shanksville was not shot down". And those are relatively simple technical issues made up of essentially a complex of "yes - no" binary status facts.

Issues in the political domain are inherently more complicated.

I doubt I could contribute much myself - it is US politics and I'm AU with some limited understanding of the issues of US Constitutional Law and the functioning of government agencies. I limit myself to commenting on the legal and organisational relationships issues which are close to my career and qualification base.

Best wishes
 
I've been calling for the release of these pages for as long as I can remember. The last time there was a big push is when the September Eleventh Advocates released a petition calling for the declassification of those and other documents. We managed to get over 17k signatures. That was late 2006. Everything we do is considered "truther nonsense" by some.
Sadly that is a problem form "both sides" I see no solution. So work around it.

Your "side" cannot stop the nonsense that is claimed on some issues. My "side" cannot prevent lazy use of name calling.

And most of what we see on this forum is technically oriented stuff where the true answers have been known for a long time.
 
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Jon Gold, self-styled lobbyist for "the" 9/11 families

I am not a lobbyist for the 9/11 Families. I support those seeking truth, accountability and justice and do my very best to make sure people know what they're saying and doing, but I don't represent the 9/11 Families in any way, shape, or form. I am an advocate for 9/11 Justice. It only makes sense to work alongside 9/11 Family Members doing the same thing. Plus, in my opinion, it's the right thing to do.

As for your "the"... You're right. Not all 9/11 Family Members believe the same things. I wish they would all come together and work towards real truth, accountability and justice.
 
Looks like this is going to turn into another Truther fiasco along the lines of the Week of Truth, NYC-CAN, Truth Burn, etc. In 13 days they have gotten 1049 signatures. They needed to average about 3 times that per day in order to reach their goal of 100,000 signatures.

Oh, and as for that not being a kook site, check out this page with the usual quote-mining of Tom Kean:

9/11 Commission chairman Tom Keane (sic) doesn’t seem to think so. Said Keane, “(Vice chairman Lee Hamilton and I) think the commission was in many ways set up to fail because we had not enough money…we didn’t have enough time.”
 
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I am not a lobbyist for the 9/11 Families. I support those seeking truth, accountability and justice and do my very best to make sure people know what they're saying and doing, but I don't represent the 9/11 Families in any way, shape, or form. I am an advocate for 9/11 Justice. It only makes sense to work alongside 9/11 Family Members doing the same thing. Plus, in my opinion, it's the right thing to do.

As for your "the"... You're right. Not all 9/11 Family Members believe the same things. I wish they would all come together and work towards real truth, accountability and justice.

Jon,
Justice is a noble goal. I suppose it depends on what you mean by justice in the 9/11 context. People were murdered.. no one was held accountable.. that assuming (good assumption) that the hijackers did not act alone.

Retribution is not necessarily justice although many seek such an outcome.

I do not support the 9/11 truth movement but I am outraged at how 9/11 was used as justification for wars and more militarism and a whittling away of our rights (4th amendment). We have more militarism, less freedom and less security.
 
Looks like this is going to turn into another Truther fiasco along the lines of the Week of Truth, NYC-CAN, Truth Burn, etc. In 13 days they have gotten 1049 signatures. They needed to average about 3 times that per day in order to reach their goal of 100,000 signatures.

Brian just explained that he is not a "truther." Especially how the term is defined by "debunkers" and the corporate news (and by those who actually act in the way "debunkers" and the corporate news describes). Secondly, it's sad isn't it? Some people in the "9/11 Truth Movement" are actually trying to convince people not to care because the 28 redacted pages are a "limited hangout." It also doesn't help that many people who consider themselves to be on the side of good and transparency aren't promoting it. Another problem is that it wasn't promoted as it should have been before it was released. Another problem is that MintPressNews is the only news outlet to have covered it. But, I'll keep trying. It's a slim chance, but it is a chance. You should be promoting it on SLC.
 
Hello Brian and Jon, and welcome to the ISF!
Thanks also for your polite and well-measured posts. Having signed up here brings for you the relative advantage of being protected by the Membership Agreement - no one must insult you now.

Brian, when I first came across 28pages.org, and later this petition, I did so via "truther" websites (911Blogger, "Debunking the Debunkers" blog) and individuals (including Jon, whom I count as a "truther" - I'll explain below), and thus assumed, perhaps erroneously, that it was set up by "truthers". I had not heard the name Brian McGlinchey before. On hr14.org I read that Brian McGlinchey is a "familiy" member - now it seems that's not true, either?
Anyway, my apologies for jumping to conclusions.

The term "truthers", in my, and perhaps the "classic" view, describes an assorment of people active mainly on the internet who hold that the "official" version of 9/11 (whatever that may be) is in an important way wrong, and that the US government somehow bears direct responsibility. There have always been several factions of "truthers", often roughly characterized in a first step along the lines of
  • MIHOP ("Made It Happen On Purpose"). This includes allegations of explosive CD, DEW, nukes, no-planes, holograms... and is perhaps the main stream in public perception today
  • LIHOP ("Let It Happen On Purpose"). This accepts that planes crashed and fires brought down the towers, but alleges that elements within the government allowed the terrorists to succeed - allegations of "stand-down order" and other such claims
  • It's debatable whether a group "LIHOOI" ("Let It Happen Out Of Incompetence") still belongs under the big tent "truthers"
By association and through a certain form a vagueness in his claims, I have always placed Jon closer to the LIHOP than the LIHOOI stance, and that's why I categorize him as a "truther". Doesn't mean I don't respect him - I respect him tons more than the Richard Gages, Kevin Ryans or Wayne Costes of this world.

Now as for Brian being 'disappoint[ed] that Oystein implied that only "losers on the far fringe of society" might support heightened government transparency' - I wrote that under the assumption that the petition was promoted by truthers and on truther websites. In context, I had written:
"It is trivial to predict that 100,000 signatures is FAR outside the reach of the Truth Movement, since it us made up of a very tiny minority of losers on the far fringe of society, numbering a few ten thousand individuals only, most of which are badly motivated and apathetic."
And I stand by that. My interest here is to monitor some of the more visible TM groups and report on their activities, and I have concluded that the TM alone is utterly incapable of mustering those kinds of numbers.

Now, as Jon has said, "many people who consider themselves to be on the side of good and transparency aren't promoting it" - that includes leading 9/11 Truthers. Most notably, from my perspective (as I have particularly focused my attention for years on this group) is the silence of AE911truth. I have written them in all sincerity to consider promoting the petition - no reaction. I am sure Jon has done the same, with no success.
There is a "rivaling" (?) project, hr14.org, that's clearly run by what even you would recognize as "truthers" (Les Jamieson, Wayne Coste). I don't see them promoting the whitehouse.org petition in any way, shape or form. Weird!

Even I have promoted the petition, by linking it, with encouragement to sign, on two of the largest "Truth" groups on Facebook - with almost zero reactions.


I think the debunkers here at ISF have more sympathy for the 9/11 families and victims than the leading "truthers" of today. It needs to be exposed that, for example, Richard Gage is firmly opposed to helping them.
 

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