The Historical Jesus III

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dejudge said:
....You have been churning out biology and history from gMark and gMatthew.

We have been informed that Jesus the son of a Ghost was executed in gMatthew.

We have been informed that Jesus the Transfiguring Water walker was executed in gMark.

We have been informed that Jesus the Son of a Ghost was crucified in gLuke.

We have been informed that Jesus God Creator, the Logos was crucified in gJohn.

We have been informed that Jesus God's Son from HEAVEN was crucified in the Pauline Corpus.

We have been informed of the crucifixion of a myth/fiction character called Jesus of Nazareth.

You seem to forget that people here are informed.

We know the CREED of the Church which Canonised the NT.

We are informed that Jesus was God of God and born of a Ghost according to the consensus of Jesus cults and the Roman Government since at least the 4th century.


I refer to your "churning", so what do we get? More churning. That was predictable, I suppose.

Your outburst was predictable and consistently un-evidenced.

You have no historical or biological data for your HJ so was compelled to use the Ghost stories called gMatthew and gMark and admitted hallucinations about a man from heaven in the Pauline Corpus for the history and biology of your Jesus.

It is most fascinating that a non-Christian would use the Ghost stories of the NT to find the biological family of the Transfiguring water walking Son of a Ghost from heaven.

Fundamentalists make a far better argument for an HJ than you.

Fundamentalists do NOT discredit their primary sources for THEIR Jesus.

It was always a ridiculous pathetic idea to admit the NT is riddled with fiction, mythology, hallucinations, interpolations, historical problems and contradictions and then turn around and use the very same discredited despicable source as a source of biology and history for YOUR Jesus.

Christians of antiquity have ALREADY conceded with the Roman Government that Jesus was God of God and born of a Ghost based on THEIR Scriptures so I really don't know what you are attempting to prove by using the same Ghost stories for biology and history.

You just PIGGY-BACK on the Bible which is the word of Lord God of the Jews according to the Mother Church.

There was NEVER EVER any historical data for Jesus of Nazareth BEFORE or After the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.
 
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I agree, this is interesting and opens the possibility that the evangelists copied some features of the Egyptian in their stories about Jesus. But there is a very significant difference: Jesus was crucified. This is not a trifle when discussing about the specific problem of the existence of Jesus.

Except if Paul's Jesus was a legendary person then the crucifixion need not be done by Romans. Jewish king Alexander Jannaeus for example crucified 800 of his fellow Jews well before the Romans took over Judea.

In fact, Deuteronomy 21:22-23 details such a method of execution under Jewish Law (some read it as a prophecy but it isn't)

Also the crucifixion may have been a logical progression; the messiah would challenge Earthly authority and with the Romans that generally did not end well.

As I have pointed out The apocryphal Acts of Paul (c. 160 CE) burning Christians to death around the death of Paul (i.e., 67 CE) NOT shift blame for the Great Fire but because Nero has seen some guy named Patroclus who had supposedly died and was told that Christ Jesus would "overthrow all kingdoms" and this man was now a solder in Jesus' army (so the Christians themselves have Nero reacting to a possible attempt at overthrowing his government ie sedition)

By the logic you have presented no Christian could have written The apocryphal Acts of Paul because Christians were supposed to be the 1st century equivalent of 1960s Flower Children and they would never write a work where they effectively preached sedition. Yet we know the Christians did write such a work.

Finally remember that we are dealing with visions and Paul trying to push an existing sect in a certain direction. Visions as a general rule don't make a lot of sense logically and show know what the fate of the messiah was in the various sects I think Paul was trying to sell the Jesus "brand" to.
 
Except if Paul's Jesus was a legendary person then the crucifixion need not be done by Romans.
If he was "legendary" in your evident sense, then he wasn't crucified at all. My point is, why would Paul invent a Messiah only to have him crucified? And if he wanted to have him crucified by Alexander Jannaeus, why doesn't the tell us this?

The supposition that he really was crucified, and not by AJ, imposes itself as the most likely solution to the problems posed by Paul's writings.
 
No evidence of you "churning"?!?!? I fear that you must be suffering from delusions. Which makes me very worried and disquieted.

You have no historical data for your HJ argument and is simply waste time talking about "churning".

You use the Ghost stories in the Synoptics and admitted hallucinations in the Pauline Corpus to churn your biology and history.

In the Synoptics, You see that the Transfiguring Jesus of Nazareth was born of a Ghost and was in the company of Satan the Devil but use gMatthew and gMark to argue that Jesus had biological siblings.

You churn absurdities of massive proportions.
 
If he was "legendary" in your evident sense, then he wasn't crucified at all. My point is, why would Paul invent a Messiah only to have him crucified? And if he wanted to have him crucified by Alexander Jannaeus, why doesn't the tell us this?

Fictional accounts are not expected to have really happened. The Jesus story is fiction from conception to ascension.

You seem to have never read a fiction novel except the Bible.

You can't use the Bible for biology and history.


Craig B said:
The supposition that he really was crucified, and not by AJ, imposes itself as the most likely solution to the problems posed by Paul's writings.

What?? Suppositions have NEVER EVER been considered likely solutions at any level.

You have confirmed that YOUR HJ argument is a product of imaginative suppositions.

The Pauline Corpus is not history but a collection of myths and fables.
 
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You have no historical data for your HJ argument and is simply waste time talking about "churning".

You use the Ghost stories in the Synoptics and admitted hallucinations in the Pauline Corpus to churn your biology and history.

In the Synoptics, You see that the Transfiguring Jesus of Nazareth was born of a Ghost and was in the company of Satan the Devil but use gMatthew and gMark to argue that Jesus had biological siblings.

You churn absurdities of massive proportions.
If talking about churning is a waste of time, why have you repeated the expression "churn" twice in your post? Is it a waste of time to write "churning" but not a waste of time to write "churn" because it's a shorter word? You must answer that, because we need to know.
 
If talking about churning is a waste of time, why have you repeated the expression "churn" twice in your post? Is it a waste of time to write "churning" but not a waste of time to write "churn" because it's a shorter word? You must answer that, because we need to know.

Again, you are confirming that you have NO historical data for HJ argument but just waste time talking about "churning".

The Christian Canon does not support the modern heresy that Jesus was an OBSCURE mere man with a human father.

The Jesus cult of Christians do NOT worhip men as God so it is virtually impossible or extremely unlikely that Jesus cult Christians would worship a known dead man as a God.

Minucius Felix "Octavius"
For in that you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross, you wander far from the neighbourhood of the truth, in thinking either that a criminal deserved, or that an earthly being was able, to be believed God.

Miserable indeed is that man whose whole hope is dependent on mortal man, for all his help is put an end to with the extinction of the man.

Jesus cult Christians NEVER EVER had any historical data for Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus was always a figure of Faith and NEVER EVER was a figure of history.

You will NEVER EVER find any historical data for Jesus of Nazareth because there NEVER was.
 
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Again, you are confirming that you have NO historical data for HJ argument but just waste time talking about "churning".
You've not answered my question about "churn" and "churning".
The Christian Canon does not support the modern heresy that Jesus was an OBSCURE mere man with a human father.
I know that you believe in the infallibility of the Holy Canon of Mother Church and therefore you can't believe that Jesus was an obscure man. But I am an atheist and I can believe in obscure men.

When you become Pope will you give me a Plenary Indulgence just in case?
 
You've not answered my question about "churn" and "churning". I know that you believe in the infallibility of the Holy Canon of Mother Church and therefore you can't believe that Jesus was an obscure man. But I am an atheist and I can believe in obscure men.

When you become Pope will you give me a Plenary Indulgence just in case?

At this point it's chumming.
 
Apart from all the other problems which have been highlighted for you ; can you please tell us what is the date of this extant copy of Irenaeus that you are quoting from?

Why? Are you suggesting that it is spurious? Invented by Hardouin's Severus Archontius in the Middle Ages. Like Josephus and Caesar?


Nobody here needs to be reminded that you are unaware of why witness statements become increasingly less reliable after the passage of even quite a short time from the supposed events.

And that is just as true for written statements said to be the result of 1000 years of copying from self-interested highly partial writers who as a class are known to have quite certainly been in the habit of altering passages that were specifically about their religion.

So it will not surprise sceptics or any observant readers here to see how you are either unaware of that, or unwilling to admit it if it does not suit your pre-conceived beliefs about Jesus.
 
Nobody here needs to be reminded that you are unaware of why witness statements become increasingly less reliable after the passage of even quite a short time from the supposed events.

And that is just as true for written statements said to be the result of 1000 years of copying from self-interested highly partial writers who as a class are known to have quite certainly been in the habit of altering passages that were specifically about their religion.

So it will not surprise sceptics or any observant readers here to see how you are either unaware of that, or unwilling to admit it if it does not suit your pre-conceived beliefs about Jesus.
It most assuredly doesn't support my beliefs about scribal copying. Anyway your question, "what ms of Ireneaus?" was "disingenuous", to put it politely. It was http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/polycarp.html as you were told. If you have a problem with that, what is it? The main source for these works is a bad Latin version, but attempts were made to recover the Greek version from fragments and citations.

I'm sure the scholars who undertook this were not all forgers or charlatans.
 
This is an interesting paper -

JESUS AND THE “EGYPTIAN PROPHET”
Lena Einhorn, PhD
(Presented at the Society of Biblical Literature Annual Meeting, Chicago, Nov.17-20, 2012)​

Einhorn describes a parallels between the New Testament and the works of Josephus where a number of events described in the works of Josephus in the period 44-60 AD appear in the NT but ~26-36 AD ie. condensed and ~ 20-25 yrs earlier.
Thanks for the paper. One idea I have thrown out there about a hypothetical Historical Jesus (based on a mish-mash of Roberson, Wells, Robin Hood, and John Frum) is that, if he did exist, he may have been preaching outside the 28-36 CE time-frame and was moved into that period for social-political reasons ...
You're welcome.

I think it's likely that the core of the character is based on someone outside that time-frame too.

I'd go so far as to say there could be more than one transposition: one like Einhorn has almost certainly documented, and others; such as 2nd century messianic claims transposed into the early 1st C setting.

I'm attracted to the proposition that the references to Tiberius and Pontius Pilate in the extant Annals 15.44 are interpolations for Nero and Poricus Festus, respectively (mooted by Jay Raskins).

Tacitus Histories 5:9
"Under Tiberius all was quiet."

(immediately prior to that, in Hist 5:9, there was reference to an uppity Simon -
"After Herod's death, a certain Simon32 - a freed slave assumed the name of king without waiting for Caesar's decision. He, however, was put to death by Quintilius Varus, governor of Syria ..."​

Some have proposed a Simon-Peter messiah-claimant was a fore-runner to the development of the Jesus narrative)​

and

Tertullian Ad Nationes, Chap VII
"Our Christian name first emerged when Augustus was emperor. During the reign of Tiberius, our beliefs shed their light abroad. Under Nero condemnation flourished. You might give some thought to the actual character of our first persecutor. If he was just and chaste, then the Christians are immoral and wanton. If he was not an enemy of the people, then we are the enemy of the people. Our persecutor demonstrated our true character by punishing those who were at odds with him.

"Of the movements from the time of Nero, only ours endures to this day – righteous in respect to our character and at variance with our persecutor ...

Translated by Q. Howe. © Q. Howe, 2007
This translation was created in conjunction with the Patristics Project at Faulkner University.

http://www.tertullian.org/articles/howe_adnationes1.htm

"This name of ours took its rise in the reign of Augustus; under Tiberius it was taught with all clearness and publicity; under Nero it was ruthlessly condemned, and you may weigh its worth and character even from the person of its persecutor."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian06.html
.

There was also a procurator by the name of Tiberius Julius Alexander, dated 46–48 AD, which fits with the time-frames outlined by Einhorn.

From Josephus Antiquites of the Jews 20.5.3
2. Then came Tiberius Alexander as successor to Fadus; he was the son of Alexander the alabarch of Alexandria, which Alexander was a principal person among all his contemporaries, both for his family and wealth: he was also more eminent for his piety than this his son Alexander, for he did not continue in the religion of his country. Under these procurators that great famine happened in Judea, in which queen Helena bought corn in Egypt at a great expense, and distributed it to those that were in want, as I have related already. And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon, whom Alexander commanded to be crucified.​
 
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I'm attracted to the proposition that the references to Tiberius and Pontius Pilate in the extant Annals 15.44 are interpolations for Nero and Poricus Festus, respectively (mooted by Jay Raskins).
Who is this Raskins? I can't find him. And why are you attracted to his seemingly most improbable speculations?
 
You've not answered my question about "churn" and "churning". I know that you believe in the infallibility of the Holy Canon of Mother Church and therefore you can't believe that Jesus was an obscure man. But I am an atheist and I can believe in obscure men.

Again, you confirm you have NO historical data for your fiction character called obscure HJ.

You use the very Holy Canon CHURNED OUT by the INFALLIBLE Holy Mother Church.

You were forced to use gMark, gMatthew and the Pauline Corpus for the Biology and history of your Jesus becuse you NEVER EVER had any historical data.

I will NEVER EVER accept your IMAGINED fiction obscure HJ derived from the manipulation of the Ghost stories of the Canon of the Holy Mother Church.



Craig B said:
When you become Pope will you give me a Plenary Indulgence just in case?

You and the Pope use the very same COLLECTION OF MYTHS AND FABLES called the New Testament to argue Jesus existed.

You are blessed. You BELIEVE Jesus existed WITHOUT seeing him.

CHURCH HISTORY 1---9. “Blessed are you who hast believed in me without having seen me. For it is written concerning me, that they who have seen me will not believe in me, and that they who have not seen me will believe and be saved.
 
Perhaps a more appropriate analogy would be the band Porcupine Tree. They began life as a fictional "lost progressive rock band" complete with band history and catalog. This was a Spinal Tap-ish spoof, made more real by the creator (Steven Wilson) going so far as to put together an album to finish the joke. What happened from there is that the record got significant airplay on the BBC and a new band was launched which went on to become one of the most successful modern progressive bands.


:clap:
 
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