The Historical Jesus III

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Granted. But just saying it doesn't make any particular conclusion biased. You have to show bias and not just imply it.

The problem there is as pointed out in Day the Universe Changed is the very model you use determines the bias.

Burke give three examples: meteorites, Piltdown Man, and Plate Tectonics.

Burke glosses over how a handful of scientists bucked the consensus and said Piltdown was not what it was claimed to be.

David Waterston of King's College London in 1913 published in Nature his conclusion that the sample consisted of an ape mandible and human skull.

French paleontologist Marcellin Boule concluded the same thing in 1915.

American zoologist Gerrit Smith Miller said the same thing.

In 1923, Franz Weidenreich stated the remains were in reality modern human cranium and an orangutan jaw with filed-down teeth ie a fraud.

But Piltdown Man so well fit the model of human evolution used back then that these observations (which could have been easily confirmed) were ignored.

And don't kid yourself the Pro HJ side has Piltdown Men all over the place be it Josephus Testimonium Flavianum (in its entirety), the 5000 Greek document claim, and nearly all the other stuff used as evidence.


The story of meteorites is an even better example:

Before the French Revolution French peasants would tell people of 'these here stones that fell from the sky'.

These stories were dismissed out of hand as no scientist had seen these falling stones (rock brought to them were of Earthly origin). As for the stories of peasants: :crazy:

AFTER the French Revolution with those French peasants now in charge these exact same stories "became vital astrological data". A few years later a scientific book on meteorites was published.
 
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You seem to think what you believe in the 21st century is evidence.

Your 21st century un-evidenced opinion is rather worthless.

What? I am not speaking about my beliefs. I am now speaking about the beliefs of the early Christians

Christians of antiquity did ADMIT THEIR Jesus was God of God and truly born of a Ghost.

This means nothing. What “God of God” means? My English teacher says this is not English. Perhaps "god of gods"? But this is not an expression used by early Christians.
And false: not every early Christian thought that Jesus was born of “a Ghost”. Tertulian or Origen were not all the Christians. They lived between the second and the third centuries. I am discussing about the gospels and other writings of the early Christians. Mark says nothing about a miraculous birth. It seems that Mark thought that Jesus was a man raised to a divine status by Yahweh.

Jesus of Nazareth is no different to the God of the Jews.

Jesus of Nazareth was ALWAYS a myth/fiction character like Satan and the Lord God of the Jews.

False. Jesus is described as different from the Father. You can find many passages of the gospels where Jesus speaks on the Father as different and higher than him. "Only the Father knows", for example.

False: neither Satan nor Yahweh (in Jewish myths) were never men. All the gospels speak about Jesus as a man in one form or the other. Maybe Jesus was a myth, but not a similar myth.

I see you have not answered my question. I simplify:
Do you think it is possible that Jesus was a real man deified by their disciples?
 
Christians of antiquity PUBLICLY ADMITTED and DOCUMENTED that their Jesus was the Logos, God Creator a Ghost from heaven who was a water walking Transfigurer.

False. Not all the early Christians thought that Jesus was the Logos or God Creator or a simple "Ghost". You take the part for the whole.
You mix up the gospels with the Catechism. Things are a little more complex.

Furthermore, according to the evangelists, Jesus was able to do miracles but this don't mean that he was not a man. Special men were able to do miracles. Even the evangelists thought this.

I repeat my question: Do you think it is possible that Jesus was a real man deified by their disciples?
 
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Well he was born of a ghost so he can't possibly have existed. What's that? Other historical figures have had mythical stuff said about them? Well, they weren't born from ghosts, were they? QED.

Julius Caesar claimed he was descendant of Venus. Was Julius Caesar a "ghost"? That some men were descendant of gods was a commonn belief in the Antiquity but this says nothing about the existence (or not) of these men.
 
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And don't kid yourself the Pro HJ side has Piltdown Men all over the place be it Josephus Testimonium Flavianum (in its entirety), the 5000 Greek document claim, and nearly all the other stuff used as evidence.

So the consensus is HJ, and the consensus is that the testimonium is an interpolation, but it's their piltdown man anyway? I don't follow.
 
Julius Caesar claimed he was descendant of Venus. Was Julius Caesar a "ghost"?


Jewish nobodies did not usually get made to be gods by anyone and never by other Jews. If a Jewish nobody ever tried to claim to be a deity he most invariably would have been either stoned to death or pitied as raving a lunatic.


That some men were descendant of gods was a commonn belief in the Antiquity


Yes... but those men were not nobodies who did nothing and achieved nothing and where known only by a handful of nobodies who did nothing and achieved nothing.


... but this says nothing about the existence (or not) of these men.


Exactly... evidence other than fairy tales is required... for example the facts about how they conquered and pillaged and generally behaved ... well ... like what people of those benighted epochs believed gods behaved.
 
No... Jewish men did not consider other Jewish men nor any other men to be gods and not even demi-gods.

Nor do Jewish men consider their god to be a man, or to have taken the form of a man. Whatever they were, the early Christians weren't mainline Jews, so that point is moot.
 
No... Jewish men did not consider other Jewish men nor any other men to be gods and not even demi-gods.
So Jesus couldn't have been "God of God" from the beginning. He was deified later by Gentiles. The one group of people who refused to worship him was his fellow Jews.
 
Nor do Jewish men consider their god to be a man, or to have taken the form of a man. Whatever they were, the early Christians weren't mainline Jews, so that point is moot.


Exactly... the whole affair is an insane lunacy and an insult to intelligence.

Tacitus was not wrong when he described Christianity as the MOST MISCHIEVOUS SUPERSTITION and that their HIDEOUS and SHAMEFUL EVIL beliefs were HATEFUL of humanity.

Thomas Paine, one of the great men of history, agreed with Tacitus and put it in much better terms

  • What is it the Bible teaches us? - raping, cruelty, and murder. What is it the New Testament teaches us? - to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.
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  • Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter.
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  • The Church was resolved to have a New Testament, and as, after the lapse of more than three hundred years, no handwriting could be proved or disproved, the Church, which like former impostors had then gotten possession of the State, had everything its own way. It invented creeds, such as that called the Apostle's Creed, the Nicean Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and out of the loads of rubbish that were presented it voted four to be Gospels, and others to be Epistles, as we now find them arranged.
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  • The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice.
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  • As to the book called the bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions and a history of bad times and bad men.
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  • We must be compelled to hold this doctrine to be false, and the old and new law called the Old and New Testament, to be impositions, fables and forgeries.
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  • Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistant that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.
 
Nor do Jewish men consider their god to be a man, or to have taken the form of a man. Whatever they were, the early Christians weren't mainline Jews, so that point is moot.
There are examples though of God taking the form of a man in early Jewish literature, e.g Jacob wrestling a man who turns out to be God in Genesis 32:22-31. And there are examples of men becoming angelic beings. This is Philo of Alexandria, writing around 40 CE, about the death and ascension of Moses:
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/philo/book25.html

And some time afterwards, when he was about to depart from hence to heaven, to take up his abode there, and leaving this mortal life to become immortal, having been summoned by the Father, who now changed him, having previously been a double being, composed of soul and body, into the nature of a single body, transforming him wholly and entirely into a most sun-like mind; he then, being wholly possessed by inspiration, does not seem any longer to have prophesied comprehensively to the whole nation altogether, but to have predicted to each tribe separately what would happen to each of them, and to their future generations, some of which things have already come to pass, and some are still expected...

For when he was now on the point of being taken away, and was standing at the very starting-place, as it were, that he might fly away and complete his journey to heaven, he was once more inspired and filled with the Holy Spirit, and while still alive, he prophesied admirably what should happen to himself after his death, relating, that is, how he had died when he was not as yet dead, and how he was buried without any one being present so as to know of his tomb, because in fact he was entombed not by mortal hands, but by immortal powers, so that he was not placed in the tomb of his forefathers, having met with particular grace which no man ever saw...​

Others in the Old Testament have been said to have been taken bodily to heaven, but Philo's description has the similarities to early Christian beliefs: a transforming body and then ascent to heaven.
 
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So the consensus is HJ, and the consensus is that the testimonium is an interpolation, but it's their piltdown man anyway? I don't follow.
It means that consensus of scholars is worthless. Do you understand the examples now? If you want the truth, go to the margins and listen to the small number of dissidents. Even if what they say sounds like woo. I think that's what we're being told.
 
What? I am not speaking about my beliefs. I am now speaking about the beliefs of the early Christians

This means nothing. What “God of God” means? My English teacher says this is not English. Perhaps "god of gods"? But this is not an expression used by early Christians.

Your English teacher is likely unaware that this is the English translation of part of The Nicene Creed from the 4th century:

"God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father"

It is like 'I throw myself down the stairs a bucket' or 'We have from all four quarters received' (both of which are English sentences with a German structure)

It appears many times including "A Form of Prayer and Thanksgiving to Almighty God" (1749)

Like it or not it IS English, been English for over 250 years.

It like many of the things that make many people's head hurt comes from the Trinity.

"They utter blasphemy, also, against our Lord, by cutting off and dividing Jesus from Christ, and Christ from the Saviour, and again the Saviour from the Word, and the Word from the Only-begotten" - Irenaeus: Against Heresies c180 CE

False. Jesus is described as different from the Father. You can find many passages of the gospels where Jesus speaks on the Father as different and higher than him. "Only the Father knows", for example.

Elsewhere Jesus IS god:

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ - 2 Peter 1:1

Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God. - John 10:30-33

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men. - Philippians 2:5-7 -

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ - Titus 2:13

Colossians 1:16 is a little wonky as does the "Him" refer to Jesus or to his father. Thanks to the way the passage is translated I can't tell.
 
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So Jesus couldn't have been "God of God" from the beginning. He was deified later by Gentiles. The one group of people who refused to worship him was his fellow Jews.


There you go again assuming the veracity of fables and fairy tales for your proofs of how fairy tales are true.... circular reasoning yet again.

If you want to understand how wrong you are then read the books I cited for you before in this post and if you do not like reading then just watch the videos.... really... your errors and illogical fallacies could do with a lot of correction and reeducation... do yourself a favor and read those books .... seriously YOU NEED TO read them.... but at the very least watch the videos.
 
Tertulian or Origen were not all the Christians. They lived between the second and the third centuries. I am discussing about the gospels and other writings of the early Christians. Mark says nothing about a miraculous birth. It seems that Mark thought that Jesus was a man raised to a divine status by Yahweh.
Yes, that Jesus was just a man was a very early belief in Christianity. Justin Martyr, writing around 150 CE, makes the following comment about some Christians believed that Jesus was made Christ by "election", i.e. his sinless life. The implication is that anyone could be Christ if they were good enough:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

But since I have certainly proved that this man is the Christ of God, whoever He be, even if I do not prove that He pre-existed, and submitted to be born a man of like passions with us, having a body, according to the Father's will; in this last matter alone is it just to say that I have erred, and not to deny that He is the Christ, though it should appear that He was born man of men, and [nothing more] is proved [than this], that He has become Christ by election. For there are some, my friends," I said, "of our race, who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men; with whom I do not agree...​

And Bart Ehrman notes that some Christians were "adoptionists", that is, God 'adopted' the man Jesus to be Christ; he wasn't born that way. From his book "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture", page 48:

Christians of the second and third centuries generally--regardless of theological persuasion--claimed to espouse the views of Jesus' earliest followers. With regard at least to the adoptionists, modern scholarship has by and large conceded the claim.​

The letters of Paul and the Gospel of Mark seem to support such views. It is only in the next generation that "Jesus was Son of God from birth" started to appear, and eventually won over other streams of Christianity.
 
It means that consensus of scholars is worthless. Do you understand the examples now? If you want the truth, go to the margins and listen to the small number of dissidents. Even if what they say sounds like woo. I think that's what we're being told.


Every stride and leap in knowledge has been initially against the "consensus".

Scientists ridiculed and marginalized Alfred Wegener for proposing the Continental Drift theory and the "consensus" derided and ignored him for a fool who was not qualified in the field of the "consensus".

From here
Despite much opposition, the view of continental drift gained support and a lively debate started between "drifters" or "mobilists" (proponents of the theory) and "fixists" (opponents).​
 
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Exactly... the whole affair is an insane lunacy and an insult to intelligence.

Tacitus was not wrong when he described Christianity as the MOST MISCHIEVOUS SUPERSTITION and that their HIDEOUS and SHAMEFUL EVIL beliefs were HATEFUL of humanity.
Thomas Paine, one of the great men of history, agreed with Tacitus and put it in much better terms ... <snip many quotes from Paine attacking the evils of religion>
Very well. Now, what is this thread about? It is about the historicity of Jesus. What is my question to you? It is this: why do you not tell us what Paine wrote about the character and historicity of Jesus? At the end of Ch 2 of The Age of Reason he states

"The Christian theory is little else than the idolatry of the ancient mythologists, accommodated to the purposes of power and revenue; and it yet remains to reason and philosophy to abolish the amphibious fraud.”

But then he turns to the question of Jesus (the topic of this thread) and his very next words are

Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practiced was of the most benevolent kind;”

So the opinion of the same author you cite, writing on the very topic of this thread, states the very opposite of your view. Paine also writes

“That such a person as Jesus Christ existed, and that he was crucified, which was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality, and the equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of the whole order of priest-hood.”

You could not have chosen a less appropriate source of support for your argument than Paine, one of the great men of history, as you rightly call him. With regard to Jesus (the topic of this thread), he and you are on entirely opposite sides.
 
If you want to understand how wrong you are then read the books I cited for you before in this post and if you do not like reading then just watch the videos.... really... your errors and illogical fallacies could do with a lot of correction and reeducation... do yourself a favor and read those books .... seriously YOU NEED TO read them.... but at the very least watch the videos.
Never do I accept invitations from people to read huge lists of books and videos. Give me your arguments. In your own words.Don't be lazy. Do I give you huge reading lists? No. Nor will I ever do so.
 
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