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Another cop murders a suspect

The officer absolutely, without a doubt WAS dragged by the suspect's vehicle. It doesn't matter what the prosecutor has said on this matter, either. It is simply a fact based on the video:

Here's an image I've seen circulating around which provides good evidence of this.

Here's a loop of the important moments, in video, with audio, which I just created. I encourage everyone to watch this and allow it to loop as it will do. Pay attention to the sound of the acceleration and when that comes.

The main reason people are able to be under this misconception that the car didn't move prior to the shot is the fact that during those moments, Tensing's body camera is pretty much pointed right at the vehicle with very little, if any, background being visible. Not having the background to clearly demonstrate movement puts us at a disadvantage, but we can still determine it.

It's also worth pointing out that unless his foot was already on the accelerator pedal, no "dead weight" dynamic could really account for that pedal being pressed down by his foot after the shot. That can only have happened if his foot had already been on the pedal. You can tell that he'd not only accelerated, but also turned left out into the street (and into the officer) based on the trajectory it maintains up to the point where it crashes, btw.



Looking like he was dragged several feet, actually. This is why he ends up falling down and having to get back up, and why he's getting up off the ground several feet from where he'd been standing next to the car talking to the suspect. I'll grant you that some of the acceleration and movement is happening after the shot (some is before the shot, some is during - this all happens VERY fast) but I think it's clear that there was absolutely enough acceleration, movement, and officer-dragging prior to the shot to justify it.



In a moment like that, it isn't a matter of rock solid logical thinking. It's a matter of training and instinct kicking in, and frankly, if the officer had drawn his weapon and was preparing to use it as an incentive to get Dubose to exit the vehicle, it's possible that the sudden jerking motion of the car as Dubose hit the gas contributed to the trigger being pulled.

All that needs to have happened for this shooting to make sense from the officer's POV is "oh crap! I'm going to get run over!" - that would put him in legitimate fear for his life, and frankly I don't even think any rational person can watch that video and NOT realize that this is what was going through his head when he shot. Whether you find it reasonable or not, he obviously did think his life was in danger and that this moving vehicle posed a threat to him.

Dubose wasn't just accelerating, he was turning INTO the officer as well (had to because there was a car up ahead along the shoulder like his was) and could have easily pulled the officer's legs under the rear tire.



And you're both incorrect. Dubose absolutely applies acceleration AND turns before being shot. He was shot because of these actions, and because of the threat they posed to the officer's safety. The prosecutor charged him out of fear of riots, plain and simple.



No, while still alive, Dubose started the engine, began acceleration, and began turning out into the street and thus INTO/ONTO the officer standing directly next to the car, and in fact leaning into it. Thus putting the officer in grave physical danger. His fate is exactly why you don't do that.



Unfortunately his left arm goes out of frame at the crucial moment, so we can't say exactly what was going on with it. However, it seems very possible that since he'd been grappling with the suspect for control of the steering wheel, his arm may have momentarily been caught in said steering wheel as Dubose turned it leftward. If this is the case, he got his arm free rather rapidly as Dubose straightened out the car a bit again, but it still would've been sufficient to create that feeling of being hooked to the car. This is consistent with the fact that he is dragged for several feet and then falls down and has to get back up.



He did not lie, and neither did the other officers. He was dragged, without any doubt. Those who have looked closely at it and compared the images are guessing it was for about twelve feet. I agree with that assessment. The officer's actions also make much more sense if you grant that he was dragged. It would create the convincing (and real) feeling of significant danger in his mind and trigger his reflexes and instincts and training in this way.

Not buying what you're selling. He couldn't have been dragged before he shot the guy. No way you could aim straight. He has legs, even if the car was moving he could have moved with it. There's nothing connecting him with the car. If he was holding the door or something he could have released it. No possible way it could be justifiable self-defense.
 
Given that the car in the driveway is in frame during the stop and also when the driver is shot in the head the car certainly doesn't appear to have moved much. The wide angle lens makes trying to judge distances from the change in apparent size of objects very difficult.

In any case the best way to get clear of a car that you are standing alongside is to take a step back rather than shooting the driver in the head.

I agree, the lens makes this footage difficult and weird.

Granted, the car had not moved a great deal prior to the shot, but it was absolutely moving and not only forward but TOWARD the officer. That's the key thing which legitimizes his fear. A vehicle was being steered and accelerated toward his person. That's undeniable.

I concede he was very quick on the draw and the trigger. I still think his decision to shoot was justifiable, though. The suspect had made it abundantly clear he was going to be driving that car out of there at speed, and he also made it clear that he had absolutely no concern for the danger this would place the officer in. The officer reacted very rapidly, but appropriately.

Even if a legitimate argument could be made that he overreacted or reacted too fast, I don't see how that argument can rationally translate into a 25 year old man who wanted to serve the community as a police officer and who showed DuBose every ounce of professionalism and courtesy he could have wanted until DuBose began moving the vehicle toward him, ending up with his job gone, his life ruined, and facing the prospect of decades in prison.

Our society is completely upside down when someone like Tensing is demonized and crucified, and when a career criminal with 60 arrests like DuBose is lionized.

This is a case which demonstrates the inadequacies of the body cam. It doesn't convey, to a person safely sitting at their computer, the sense of motion, of danger, of having a split second to make a life and death decision.

Not buying what you're selling. He couldn't have been dragged before he shot the guy. No way you could aim straight. He has legs, even if the car was moving he could have moved with it. There's nothing connecting him with the car. If he was holding the door or something he could have released it. No possible way it could be justifiable self-defense.

The video demonstrates unquestionably that the vehicle moves somewhat before the shot. Perhaps not a massive amount, but it does move. Not just forward, but left out into the street and toward the officer's body.

The officer ends up at least about 12 feet from where he started, on the ground, having to stand back up. Granted, a significant portion of that movement took place after the shot, but it was all still movement which resulted from what DuBose was making the car do while still alive. It was the completion of actions he took while alive.
 
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Even if a legitimate argument could be made that he overreacted or reacted too fast, I don't see how that argument can rationally translate into a 25 year old man who wanted to serve the community as a police officer and who showed DuBose every ounce of professionalism and courtesy he could have wanted until DuBose began moving the vehicle toward him, ending up with his job gone, his life ruined, and facing the prospect of decades in prison.

Our society is completely upside down when someone like Tensing is demonized and crucified, and when a career criminal with 60 arrests like DuBose is lionized.

Sorry, who here is "lionizing" DuBose? The fact is, he is dead as a result and Tensing killed him. Even if Tensing is some kind of saint who gives to charity and volunteers in the community or whatever, the law is still the law and even a police officer cannot just arbitrarily kill someone who is not attacking them.

Don't know about the "career criminal" thing, but even if true, it's not relevant to the legal question.

I googled "who is Samuel DuBose" to see what I could find. Here's the article that came up:

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07/30/who-was-samuel-dubose-what-you-should-know

Could be they are "treading lightly" here. But where do you get your info?

In the end it really doesn't matter what you or I think, but what the jury thinks.
 
The officer absolutely, without a doubt WAS dragged by the suspect's vehicle. It doesn't matter what the prosecutor has said on this matter, either. It is simply a fact based on the video:

Here's an image I've seen circulating around which provides good evidence of this.

Here's a loop of the important moments, in video, with audio, which I just created. I encourage everyone to watch this and allow it to loop as it will do. Pay attention to the sound of the acceleration and when that comes.

The main reason people are able to be under this misconception that the car didn't move prior to the shot is the fact that during those moments, Tensing's body camera is pretty much pointed right at the vehicle with very little, if any, background being visible. Not having the background to clearly demonstrate movement puts us at a disadvantage, but we can still determine it.

It's also worth pointing out that unless his foot was already on the accelerator pedal, no "dead weight" dynamic could really account for that pedal being pressed down by his foot after the shot. That can only have happened if his foot had already been on the pedal. You can tell that he'd not only accelerated, but also turned left out into the street (and into the officer) based on the trajectory it maintains up to the point where it crashes, btw.



Looking like he was dragged several feet, actually. This is why he ends up falling down and having to get back up, and why he's getting up off the ground several feet from where he'd been standing next to the car talking to the suspect. I'll grant you that some of the acceleration and movement is happening after the shot (some is before the shot, some is during - this all happens VERY fast) but I think it's clear that there was absolutely enough acceleration, movement, and officer-dragging prior to the shot to justify it.



In a moment like that, it isn't a matter of rock solid logical thinking. It's a matter of training and instinct kicking in, and frankly, if the officer had drawn his weapon and was preparing to use it as an incentive to get Dubose to exit the vehicle, it's possible that the sudden jerking motion of the car as Dubose hit the gas contributed to the trigger being pulled.

All that needs to have happened for this shooting to make sense from the officer's POV is "oh crap! I'm going to get run over!" - that would put him in legitimate fear for his life, and frankly I don't even think any rational person can watch that video and NOT realize that this is what was going through his head when he shot. Whether you find it reasonable or not, he obviously did think his life was in danger and that this moving vehicle posed a threat to him.

Dubose wasn't just accelerating, he was turning INTO the officer as well (had to because there was a car up ahead along the shoulder like his was) and could have easily pulled the officer's legs under the rear tire.



And you're both incorrect. Dubose absolutely applies acceleration AND turns before being shot. He was shot because of these actions, and because of the threat they posed to the officer's safety. The prosecutor charged him out of fear of riots, plain and simple.



No, while still alive, Dubose started the engine, began acceleration, and began turning out into the street and thus INTO/ONTO the officer standing directly next to the car, and in fact leaning into it. Thus putting the officer in grave physical danger. His fate is exactly why you don't do that.



Unfortunately his left arm goes out of frame at the crucial moment, so we can't say exactly what was going on with it. However, it seems very possible that since he'd been grappling with the suspect for control of the steering wheel, his arm may have momentarily been caught in said steering wheel as Dubose turned it leftward. If this is the case, he got his arm free rather rapidly as Dubose straightened out the car a bit again, but it still would've been sufficient to create that feeling of being hooked to the car. This is consistent with the fact that he is dragged for several feet and then falls down and has to get back up.



He did not lie, and neither did the other officers. He was dragged, without any doubt. Those who have looked closely at it and compared the images are guessing it was for about twelve feet. I agree with that assessment. The officer's actions also make much more sense if you grant that he was dragged. It would create the convincing (and real) feeling of significant danger in his mind and trigger his reflexes and instincts and training in this way.

I'm only going to comment on a single sentence:

Why is the highlighted ever a good idea in a situation like this or appropriate according to police protocol?
 
I'm only going to comment on a single sentence:

Why is the highlighted ever a good idea in a situation like this or appropriate according to police protocol?

I couldn't tell you the exact details of police protocol or why they've arrived at the rules they have, but based on my observations of police encounters over the years, I do believe they are permitted to use their firearm as a threat to gain compliance once a suspect has acted in some sort of threatening way.

I'm sympathetic to arguments that this is inappropriate, but personally I think an officer can absolutely end up in a situation where someone has come across as a possible threat, and where doing this could be justifiable.

If someone seems like the sort of person who is likely packing and exudes desperation and non-compliance, I think an officer wanting to be prepared for anything from said person makes sense.
 
He was trying to keep the officer from opening his door and his foot went off the brake.

The idiot cop didn't ask him to turn off the car.

:rolleyes:

Actually, the car is turned off for the entire time they're having a conversation about the license plate, driver's license, etc. The cop reaches into the car in reaction to him turning the key, starting the ignition back up.

If you honestly think there is any uncertainty at all about why he was starting up the ignition, I'm not sure you can be helped.
 
:rolleyes:

Actually, the car is turned off for the entire time they're having a conversation about the license plate, driver's license, etc. The cop reaches into the car in reaction to him turning the key, starting the ignition back up

This is true.

If you honestly think there is any uncertainty at all about why he was starting up the ignition, I'm not sure you can be helped.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it was not a stupid stunt to start up and try to drive off. However, the cop's hand was not entangled and he reached in voluntarily, so he could have easily stepped back a step or two instead of drawing his weapon. It truly appears that the cop shot a fleeing suspect for an invalid reason. He was simply too aggressive for what amounts to minor violations, since there were a lot of alternatives.

Having said that it astonishes me that some people don't know how to act when stopped by the police for whatever reason. Arguing during the stop is not going to end well for anyone. The time to argue is in the Court Room, not along a street or highway.
 
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The officer absolutely, without a doubt WAS dragged by the suspect's vehicle. It doesn't matter what the prosecutor has said on this matter, either. It is simply a fact based on the video:

Here's an image I've seen circulating around which provides good evidence of this.
From your link.

Shot fired and we can see the car is further off in the distance.
Therefore Tensing was being dragged with the vehicle as he pulled his gun out and fired a shot at Dubose.
This is just argument by assertion. The officer had legs. This is not proof of anything other than what we can see and nothing more.

BTW: No one has answered my question. How did shooting DuBose in the head free the officer and stop the "dragging"?

Dubose started accelerating BEFORE he was shot.
Then why shoot him? What's the point of that? Did the officer think shooting someone in the head would magically stop the car? What exactly did the officer say was the source of this "dragging"? Was his hand stuck in the seat belt? What was it entangled on and was that mentioned in the report or during the incident?
 
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From your link.

This is just argument by assertion. The officer had legs. This is not proof of anything other than what we can see and nothing more.

BTW: No one has answered my question. How did shooting DuBose in the head free the officer and stop the "dragging"?

Then why shoot him? What's the point of that? Did the officer think shooting someone in the head would magically stop the car? What exactly did the officer say was the source of this "dragging"? Was his hand stuck in the seat belt? What was it entangled on and was that mentioned in the report or during the incident?

I have a feeling that this is going to be the gist of the prosecutors closing arguments...
 
Question for LEOs (current or former) here. From what little I've seen of the video the officer's arm does not appear to have been caught on anything, and he wasn't being dragged along side the car. Purely as a hypothetical, if his arm had indeed been caught (or held onto by the driver intentionally) and the car started moving forward, would that have justified use of a firearm? I don't mean in the moral sense - legally, if the cop in this case were in fact stuck to the car and being dragged down the road, would shooting the driver have been legal?

I'm pretty pro-cop (which is why I never post in these threads), but barring something extreme like the car dragging him along for a block or getting up to 30 MPH or some such I have a very hard time believing that shooting the driver would be legal. In other words, even if the cop in this case does in fact make his defense that he was caught and the car was moving and somehow the jury believes that part, that wouldn't make a difference and he's still guilty of some level of murder.


I believe others have touched on your questions some, and I'll do my best to provide a reason why this could be legal. My knowledge is mostly with Florida and federal statutes, so I'll base my answer off those. I am not a lawyer though I had to know the law rather well while I was an officer in the state of Florida.

I'd also like to state I personally feel the stop in the OP was all sorts of wrong. I would not be surprised if the officer were convicted of some sort of criminal manslaughter.

In the state of Florida, an officer may use deadly force as a means to defend themselves when making an arrest. Specifically, the officer has to reasonably believe they are in danger of bodily harm while trying to make the arrest. Remember, an arrest doesn't mean the person is going to jail. It is simply a stop where a reasonable person would expect they are not free to leave. After the investigation completes, often the person is free to leave and they are no longer arrested.

Here are the legal definitions for the deadly use of force in Florida.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.05.html

The hypothetical situation you presented would place the officer, stuck/trapped on the side of the car, in a situation that could easily cause bodily harm. Remember, we are talking about your hypothetical situation and not what happened in the stop in the OP. It isn't hard to imagine the officer falling off and getting run over by the back wheels, or the driver trying to 'scrape' the officer off the car by driving close enough to a stationary object. So the fear of bodily harm portion is clearly there.

That leaves the question of is someone driving away from a traffic stop, fleeing the officer, an arrestable crime. Common sense would say yes. The law also says yes.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...tute&URL=0900-0999/0901/Sections/0901.15.html

901.15 When arrest by officer without warrant is lawful.—A law enforcement officer may arrest a person without a warrant when:
(1) The person has committed a felony or misdemeanor or violated a municipal or county ordinance in the presence of the officer. An arrest for the commission of a misdemeanor or the violation of a municipal or county ordinance shall be made immediately or in fresh pursuit.

Willfully fleeing an officer during a traffic stop by itself is a 3rd degree felony.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...g=&URL=0300-0399/0316/Sections/0316.1935.html

316.1935 Fleeing or attempting to elude a law enforcement officer; aggravated fleeing or eluding.—
(1) It is unlawful for the operator of any vehicle, having knowledge that he or she has been ordered to stop such vehicle by a duly authorized law enforcement officer, willfully to refuse or fail to stop the vehicle in compliance with such order or, having stopped in knowing compliance with such order, willfully to flee in an attempt to elude the officer, and a person who violates this subsection commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.


So in your hypothetical scenario, we have the crime, it is a misdemeanor or greater, a reasonable person would assume they were under arrest, and a reasonable person would think there is a chance of bodily harm happening to the police officer if the fleeing were to continue while the officer was trapped. Lethal force, in my opinion, would be justified in that specific situation.
 
...
The idiot cop didn't ask him to turn off the car.

Much as I agree with the first three words in your sentence, I believe the video shows the victim turning the car off earlier on. He turns it back on during the scuffle at the end.
 
I concede he was very quick on the draw and the trigger. I still think his decision to shoot was justifiable, though. The suspect had made it abundantly clear he was going to be driving that car out of there at speed, and he also made it clear that he had absolutely no concern for the danger this would place the officer in. The officer reacted very rapidly, but appropriately.
Not all officers throughout the world carry guns. Tell me, how do you think they react to such situations? I know what I would do, get the hell out of the way. What would you do in that situation if you didn't have a gun?

5 countries where police officers do not carry firearms — and it works well
 
foophil said:
The hypothetical situation you presented would place the officer, stuck/trapped on the side of the car, in a situation that could easily cause bodily harm. Remember, we are talking about your hypothetical situation and not what happened in the stop in the OP. It isn't hard to imagine the officer falling off and getting run over by the back wheels, or the driver trying to 'scrape' the officer off the car by driving close enough to a stationary object. So the fear of bodily harm portion is clearly there.

Thank you for that detailed analysis to Joe Random's question. Something I'm curious about: How much responsibility does the officer have to minimize danger/harm. Let's say he's standing close by the car where he could get run over or hit by the rear of the car if the driver drove off, but he has the ability to jump back out of the way.

Does he have the right to stand his ground, literally, and therefore use deadly force to prevent being hit while staying in that exact spot? Or is he expected legally to jump back and therefore can't justify use of deadly force, because he had a non-aggressive way to avoid the harm?

That's my interpretation of what I'm seeing in the video.
 
I believe others have touched on your questions some, and I'll do my best to provide a reason why this could be legal. My knowledge is mostly with Florida and federal statutes, so I'll base my answer off those. I am not a lawyer though I had to know the law rather well while I was an officer in the state of Florida.

I'd also like to state I personally feel the stop in the OP was all sorts of wrong. I would not be surprised if the officer were convicted of some sort of criminal manslaughter.

In the state of Florida, an officer may use deadly force as a means to defend themselves when making an arrest. Specifically, the officer has to reasonably believe they are in danger of bodily harm while trying to make the arrest. Remember, an arrest doesn't mean the person is going to jail. It is simply a stop where a reasonable person would expect they are not free to leave. After the investigation completes, often the person is free to leave and they are no longer arrested.

Here are the legal definitions for the deadly use of force in Florida.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.05.html

The hypothetical situation you presented would place the officer, stuck/trapped on the side of the car, in a situation that could easily cause bodily harm. Remember, we are talking about your hypothetical situation and not what happened in the stop in the OP. It isn't hard to imagine the officer falling off and getting run over by the back wheels, or the driver trying to 'scrape' the officer off the car by driving close enough to a stationary object. So the fear of bodily harm portion is clearly there.

That leaves the question of is someone driving away from a traffic stop, fleeing the officer, an arrestable crime. Common sense would say yes. The law also says yes.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...tute&URL=0900-0999/0901/Sections/0901.15.html



Willfully fleeing an officer during a traffic stop by itself is a 3rd degree felony.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...g=&URL=0300-0399/0316/Sections/0316.1935.html




So in your hypothetical scenario, we have the crime, it is a misdemeanor or greater, a reasonable person would assume they were under arrest, and a reasonable person would think there is a chance of bodily harm happening to the police officer if the fleeing were to continue while the officer was trapped. Lethal force, in my opinion, would be justified in that specific situation.


Very interesting and informative. Thanks. I'll confess I hadn't thought of the 'flight = felony' angle, and how that would feed into authorization use deadly force in my hypothetical. I guess that means there would be a larger chance for the eventual defense in this case to claim it was a legal shoot if they somehow convince a jury that the car was in flight. Unless, as brought up above, taking a reasonably available non-violent withdraw option is mandated.

The driver in this case may have a record and have had every intent of escaping at that moment, but since he wasn't John Dillinger or just coming off a high speed chase I can't see how using lethal force to stop him driving off could be justified.
 
This is just argument by assertion. The officer had legs. This is not proof of anything other than what we can see and nothing more.

Tried to point out the same thing earlier. There is no evidence that he was "dragged" whatsoever. Argument by assertion, IOW ipse dixit.

The reason he "fell down" is because he fell down on purpose after he shot the man. Realizing he had just shot a man and it was on camera that was all play acting. A car can't run you over if you are standing next to the driver's door.
 
I do not know how I would react in this situation or how anyone else would or should react, but here are some things to consider.

The driver shut the car off. I don't know if he was asked to or not.

Everything was pretty calm up to the officers hand going to open the door. This was followed by a rapid sequence of events that included the driver reaching up and starting the car. It may have very well been the first instinct of the officer to reach in and try to shut off the key or grab the shifter. Was this a mistake? Damn right it was! However it may have been a reflexive move.

At this point in my mind it is easy to believe that this caused him to get his arm tangled in the wheel or the driver grab the arm as the car starts to move. Not saying any of this happened. I cannot tell from the video. To me it is plausible.

The other hand grabbing the gun may have also been an instinctive or reflexive action. Now you are caught in the wheel and have a gun in your hand and things are moving very fast. I don't know if I would be able to think fast enough to decide what else to do in fear for my life than to shoot the person who is making the car move.

Were mistakes made? Obviously. Does it rise to the point of Murder? Manslaughter?
 
I should add that if the driver turned the wheel at all after the officer went for the keys that this may have caused the entanglement.

It also makes no difference at all if shooting the driver allowed him to become free of the car or not. He may not have had time enough to think if it would work or not.

I will also add that it makes no difference to this case if other countries police forces are armed or not.
 
Not all officers throughout the world carry guns. Tell me, how do you think they react to such situations? I know what I would do, get the hell out of the way. What would you do in that situation if you didn't have a gun?

5 countries where police officers do not carry firearms — and it works well

All 5 of those countries have low civilian firearm ownership rates or a much lower homicide rates than the US*. I don't think its fair or sensible to ask police officer in the US to no longer routinely carry.

I better line of inquiry would be to review and adopt police procedures where cops do carry but have far far fewer police shooting than the US. Ie Germany... or really the rest of the developed world.

*Also police in the UK do routinely carry in one really dangerous part: Northern Ireland. So even they adjust their policies when needed. And Belfast's murder rate isn't even as bad as some US cities. The article linked does day Britain, but NI is part of the UK.

Also, also, Norwegian police keep a firearm in their patrol car according to wiki.
 
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