Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Just wanted to say that it's a lovely warm day here in Seattle, where wrongfully convicted Amanda Knox lives. The breeze is soft, the water is clean, and I hope Amanda is gradually forgetting the nightmare of having her freedom taken away by zealous prosecutors relying on bogus theories.

I guarantee you she's not giving a moment's thought to anonymous internet people who have decided to hold on to their hatred and waste their precious lives wishing she were locked up.

Just wanted to say personally I couldn't care less about Knox's destiny.
... Knox has never been the focus of my interest in this case.

Well, that's good. The evening is here now, full of golden light coming filtered through the trees.

You can say that she's never been the focus, sir, but you can't pretend that you didn't spend a sad amount of time thinking in detail about her boyfriends, her sex life, her use of drugs, her school records, her job history, her family, her morals, and her character.

All wasted, as it's turned out that she's exactly who her friends always said she was: a kind, thoughtful, athletic, curious person who didn't have it in her to hurt anybody.

Gosh, I'm glad she's free.
 
This childish and stupid game of character assassination is an old chestnut of yours. Presumably you used it against the mothers and fathers of those who bullied you in grade school...

Vecchiotti is a tenured professor - with many referreed journal articles to her credit - at one of the best universities in Italy. That says more than enough objectively about the esteem in which she is held, at a minimum, by the Italian scientific community. One cannot presume her directly responsible for the day to day operation of the refrigerators at this Institute of which you claim she was an employee or member. That would be more Ms. Stefanoni's speed.

You should speak with those on the other side, Knox's and Sollecito's defamatory lies and the pro-Knoxes with their filthy false narratives.

Vecchiotti was a protagonist of one of the worst forensic DNA analysis in the history of the Italian Republic, the infamous Olgiata case. According to victim's lawyer, Marazzita, the behaviour of the two experts was the "worst possible".

Prof. Vecchiotti and her two co-workers Albarello & Pascali, were completely humiliated by Law Enforcement forensic scientists on that case.

I bet Vecchiotti was not attending the day by days operations at her refrigerator, given that her refrigerator was empty - showing her lab had no activity - except for the samples from the Kercher case, which were stored without airproof wrapping and thus were evaporating, and packed with notebook paper with a marker writing "do't throw away". The refrigerator had no thermometer and was at the wrong temperature (certified labs require temperature time logs, like Stefanoni's laboratory has).

Vecchiotti is also known for other stories. For example the dubious identification of Andrea Ghira's DNA, where she certified Ghira's death, while newspapers pointed out that Vecchiotti was a "non impartial" analysis, and Carabinieri had a picture of Ghira alive in Rome.

Vecchiotti and Arbarello also performed the Cucchi experts report, where Vecchiotti was actually limited a minor role, but her co-author and esteemed professor Arbarello even stated that Cucchi might have fallen from the stairs.

Pascali, othr esteemed professor, and the other protagonist of the Olgiata case with Vecchiotti, before being Sollecito's defence expert, was an expert on the Elisa Claps case. His expert testimony was so good and honest that now he has been incriminated for cheating and he is under trial. The person who exposed his fraud and caused his incrimmination is Patrizia Stefanoni, of the Scientific Police.
 
Well, that's good. The evening is here now, full of golden light coming filtered through the trees.

You can say that she's never been the focus, sir, but you can't pretend that you didn't spend a sad amount of time thinking in detail about her boyfriends, her sex life, her use of drugs, her school records, her job history, her family, her morals, and her character.

All wasted, as it's turned out that she's exactly who her friends always said she was: a kind, thoughtful, athletic, curious person who didn't have it in her to hurt anybody.

(...)

Oh, no. Not her morals.

The rest, yes. But it is only responses to pro-Knoxes arguments, and it's within their racist defamatory campaign.
The truth can't be stopped, and you can't do anyhing about it.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are quite disgusting charachters anyway even independently from their being guilty, this is quite manifest. My human contempt for most members of the the pro-Knox crowd does not help very much communication with them, but if you want to discuss about why Knox and Sollecito are disgusting, just call.

My focus is the Kerchers, not Knox. And the truth. I observe the defamatory campaign of those liars against decent people, I well know who will pay. I feel very strong an well, and I know what I am up to. If talking about sweet evening light is your way to tell me you are only interested in protecting murderers and don't care about the rest, I already know that.
 
Oh, no. Not her morals.

The rest, yes. But it is only responses to pro-Knoxes arguments, and it's within their racist defamatory campaign.
The truth can't be stopped, and you can't do anyhing about it.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are quite disgusting charachters anyway even independently from their being guilty, this is quite manifest. My human contempt for most members of the the pro-Knox crowd does not help very much communication with them, but if you want to discuss about why Knox and Sollecito are disgusting, just call.

My focus is the Kerchers, not Knox. And the truth. I observe the defamatory campaign of those liars against decent people, I well know who will pay. I feel very strong an well, and I know what I am up to. If talking about sweet evening light is your way to tell me you are only interested in protecting murderers and don't care about the rest, I already know that.

This is a disgusting post. The core of your argument is to defame people and call them racists. All the while accusing people of murder who have been cleared by your own judiciary.

Well done, Machiavelli, well done.
 
But Meredith's profile was extracted, this is some evidence that there was DNA in that sample.

Sample 36B was;

TMB Negative
Human Antibody Negative
"Too Low" when quantified.

That a faint trace was nonetheless produced on an egram is far more likely evidence of lab contamination than DNA on the blade.

So Mach, why was 36B listed as positive for DNA and amplified while 36C, with exactly the same test results, was listed as negative and not amplified?

Here's a hint: Stefanoni was tasked with finding Meredith's DNA. With no samples producing what she needed she was forced to pick one and then proceeded to find that which she needed to find.

Your dogged denial is impressively entertaining if not hugely dishonest.
 
Sample 36B was;

TMB Negative
Human Antibody Negative
"Too Low" when quantified.

That a faint trace was nonetheless produced on an egram is far more likely evidence of lab contamination than DNA on the blade.

So Mach, why was 36B listed as positive for DNA and amplified while 36C, with exactly the same test results, was listed as negative and not amplified?

Here's a hint: Stefanoni was tasked with finding Meredith's DNA. With no samples producing what she needed she was forced to pick one and then proceeded to find that which she needed to find.

Your dogged denial is impressively entertaining if not hugely dishonest.

This is exactly the point made upthread with a verbatim quote from Vecchiotti's report. Vecchiotti exposed Stefanoni's lies.

The only remaining question is why Stefanoni would lie.
 
Oh, no. Not her morals.

The rest, yes. But it is only responses to pro-Knoxes arguments, and it's within their racist defamatory campaign.
The truth can't be stopped, and you can't do anyhing about it.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are quite disgusting charachters anyway even independently from their being guilty, this is quite manifest. My human contempt for most members of the the pro-Knox crowd does not help very much communication with them, but if you want to discuss about why Knox and Sollecito are disgusting, just call.

My focus is the Kerchers, not Knox. And the truth. I observe the defamatory campaign of those liars against decent people, I well know who will pay. I feel very strong an well, and I know what I am up to. If talking about sweet evening light is your way to tell me you are only interested in protecting murderers and don't care about the rest, I already know that.

If anyone is a disgusting character it is you, Machiavelli.

Oh, and btw, according to the Italian Supreme Court they are not murderers. Just more evidence you and the truth are like oil and vinegar.
 
This is exactly the point made upthread with a verbatim quote from Vecchiotti's report. Vecchiotti exposed Stefanoni's lies.

The only remaining question is why Stefanoni would lie.

Because she had no choice. She was tasked with finding Meredith's DNA. She did the best she could to make that happen but it required her to lie. The truth wasn't getting her anywhere.
 
Just wanted to say personally I couldn't care less about Knox's destiny.
The world is full of murderers walking free. I have no wishes nor worries concerning the life of one of them, and I never did.
I really have 'bigger fishes to fry'. Knox has never been the focus of my interest in this case.


Then why do you post all of this rubbish year after year . . .
 
Just wanted to say personally I couldn't care less about Knox's destiny.
The world is full of murderers walking free. I have no wishes nor worries concerning the life of one of them, and I never did.
I really have 'bigger fishes to fry'. Knox has never been the focus of my interest in this case.

What unadulterated malarkey. No one with bigger fishes (sic) to fry credibly spends 8 years and thousands of posts here and elsewhere on the internet, bending themselves into preposterous pretzel shapes to support an idiotic theory, roundly discredited by leading scientists and crime professionals across the western world. Like the KrissyG's, Yummi's, Harry Rags and Ergons of the world, these are lonely and pathetic individuals, who, if their viewpoints were not so wrongheaded, hateful and contemptible, would be worthy of abject pity.

But this, of course, is a magnificently big "if".
 
It's true you get marks for workings, even if the final answer is wrong.

However, if you get to the correct answer without workings, you get full marks, unless it's a proof being asked for.

Problem is here that the proof is essential to the efficacy of the answer. You cannot know you have a correct answer until you've seen the proof.

What I want to know is why Stefanoni's own personal attitude to the raw data in this case is not in itself a huge red flag for those who seem to believe her work was sound.

And that's even before we look at such other evidence, which is available, that proves it was not.
 
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Sorry, no.
You are quoting an attempt of spinning by a defence lawyer as it was proof of something, but here it's only Maori trying to "put words in the mouth" of the witness. Finzi here only says he saw it first because it was on top of other coutelry, while Maori tries to make a link suggesting "this is the reason" why he "picked" that knife and no others.
But this is false.
Finzi says very clearly that the reason why he picked that knife was not because he saw that first, but because it appeared interesting under an investigation viewpoint, insofar it appeared compatible with the wounds, and he also said that one reason why the object seemed compatible was because the wound was very deep and wide and this made him think it would be probably caused by a large knife.
Finzi also said he picked also another knife from Sollecito's apartment, while dismissed the other knives since at first sight they didn't look "compatible" with that type of wound. Finzi also said anyway they seized the whole apartment, with all its content.

Now have a look to what Finzi actually says:

Finzi says quite clearly that he had been briefed about Meredith’s wounds, that were described to him with terms “molto profonde”, and “larghe” and says thus he expected that a knife compatible with those wound would be probablygrande”.


p. 174



p. 177



p.183


Finzi says however that he also picked another knife from Sollecito’s flat that he thought could be compatible, and was much smaller.



If you look at video of Sollecito's apartment you realize the "othe knives" were some small steak knives and one serrated bread knife.
Unless you believe that murder could have been committed with a steak knife or a bread knife, those are not exactly items that you would consider interesting.

I rest my case; Finzi was badly briefed. He justifies his choice on the fact that he had been told the wounds were deep. BUT no dimensions, no description of a type of knife. In fact all the wounds were compatible with a smaller knife than the one he collected. Some wounds were ONLY compatible with a smaller knife. Can you say the smaller wounds were not compatible with a steak knife? What about the knives in Knox's kitchen and under her bed? By dismissing other knives as being too small he made an error. There must have been a smaller knife. He did not look for one because he jumped to a conclusion not supported by the evidence. This is characteristic of the police approach, jump to a conclusion, act on it, ignore what the evidence says. Because of his 'instinct' that the knife on top, the first knife he saw, was a possible murder weapon, the prosecution were forced in to the two knife theory, because this large knife could NOT have inflicted all the wounds.


Well Finzi only kept new gloves there. But Finzi had never been at the cottage.
So where did he get the gloves from? In the crime scene videos we see that the police use boxes of gloves, not individually packed pairs. So who pulled out gloves before him? Where had they been? Where had the box of gloves been? We have a source of contamination here.
It's not a kind of "ping pong" game where there if a certain move is done then "it becomes responsability of the prosecution", actually the trial is always focused on the suspect. The prosecution has always a responsability of checking whether evidence is substantial, but there isn't a something like move that causes some particular change in the rules. There isn't actually even a legal concept like "chain of evidence(custody)", there isn't any procedure rule on that.
I accept if you say so that there is no concept of chain of evidence in Italy. However if considering the interpretation of LCN touch or trace DNA the integrity of the sample and the collection process is crucial.

Gubbiotti re-packaged the knife, taking it out from the envelope, for a good reason, at least for a reason that seemd good and justified in their moment under their praxis.

According to Gubbiotti’s testimony, he took the knife out from the envelope before re-packaging, in order to do the procedure called “repertazione”, which consists in the bureaucratic part of taking record of what is collected: noting a short description like features and size of the knife, possibly taking pictures of it, assign a number and write a note about it to put on the outside of the cardboard box.
So this was a standard process? I assume then that most of the evidence was treated in the same way? Unpackaged at the police station, documented, and repackaged? Was this done in the same room? On the same desk? What were the cleaning processes between examination of each item? Was the box sitting in the office where the evidence underwent repertazione? Had Gubbiotti been to the crime scene? Had anyone else passing through that office? if you say this is routine procedure I accept that. Yet it is another opportunity for the knife or the box it was put in to be contaminated with MK DNA.

.

Yet we know Meredith Kercher for sure didn't handle it, and Finzi has never been at the cottage.
But it's not something extraordinary anyway. Stefanoni packaged the mop in present paper. The Scientific Police also used the cottage freezer to store temporarily collected item packages.
I accept there was a great deal of poor practice, that the handling of the knife was not worse than the handling of most of the evidence.



I tend to believe those experts who say it's not that easy to transfer DNA, and that if you test random items inside a house "your will likely find very little DNA".
Reference please.
In contrast please see Goray, M. and R. A. H. van Oorschot (2014). "The complexities of DNA transfer during a social setting." Legal Medicine 17(2): 82-91. Where they document DNA transmission in a social situation not involving body 'fluids'. Interestingly one participant 'imported' DNA from an unknown individual which he subsequently spread first on to a glass (secondary transfer)then from that glass on to a table (tertiary transfer). If this had been a crime scene the finding of this unknown persons DNA would be argued as evidence they were there. However in a controlled experiment it has been demonstrated that an individual does not need to have been present for their DNA to be found on an object in a room. No body fluids here.

Frankly, I don't believe it's so easy to find whole cells with nucleus around the environment, it's not easy to transfer those cells from a place to another and it would be even less easy if there is no liquid mean (to detach such a small object from a surface without liquid means, and to transfer it without without a fluid); and above all, I don't think it's somehting probable: to transfer microscopic amounts of DNA (in the magnitude of less than nanograms or picograms) means be able to manage to "touch" an object the size of square micrometers by using an object with a surfact millions times bigger like a finger. And if you studied a bit of physics, you also know how unlikely it is for two surfaces to actually "touch" each other ("contact" of microscopic particles is something itself very improbable). Then you would have to transfer such microscopic particle by touching again with the same portion of finger (or shoe, cloth, or else) a specific item, a small portion actually that will be tested, such as the few millimeters of a metal hook, or the 1 square centimeter of a scratch on a knive blade.
So you have your belief. I reference empirical evidence.

All this is improbable.
It's not imbossible. But it's improbable.
You just cannot assume that this happens all the time, also because this is not what the result show. DNA analysis does on this case does not not show DNA from everyone likely to pass around on every items.
Sollecito's DNA was found n the cottage only on one, small, "wet" item such as a cigarette butt, which someone has certainly touched abundanlty transferring massive amounts of DNA on a small surface through wet saliva.
But there is no Filomena's DNA in filomena's room, for example. There is no other's DNA on most objects found in the flat.



Actually scratches are visible in photographies.
So why were not all the scratches tested? Perfectly reasonable to swab the blade. Not sure why anyone worries about whether there was a small scratch where Stef says she saw one.



In fact when she testified she was reading her report, she was looking at her pages on her pc. I think this is why she mistook: the error propagated from the report to the testimony.
It does not improve the issue. She submitted to court a document that was false. The hand written entry is supposed to have been contemporaneous. It is hard to see how she could have made that mistake if the document had been written at the time. Especially since subsequently documents were found that documented the use of the QUBIT. So the hand written note must have been made later. The fact that there is one 'error' justifies going through and checking all other facts she gave against the original data. Once this one 'error' was identified all the rest should have been reviewed. This review should have been led by the director of the laboratory, possibly with an external expert to independently review the data and ensure the report was otherwise true.



No no, the taking place of incidente probatorio can be objected before it takes place.
Potenza wrote observations in his own report. But did not raise any objection at the incidente probatorio. He also made no comments, he put no comments in the record, and also didn't document the testing.
We do not know what was said, I think what I quoted could be regarded as his comments on the record his report is 28 November 2007 reporting on the testing done over several days from 12 November.

I'm not saying that this behaviour by Potenza should cause the defence to be denied access to data, but it also doesn't mean one can "blame the prosecution" for what defence didn't do. Here, the defence did not try to "mend" an alleged mistake by their expert, instead they partly followed a strategy to exploit it, as a pretext for attempting to dismiss evidence, and they followed a line of conduct that shows, to those who have a grasp of the procedure, that their intent was clearly to try a treacherous game. Which is their right, it is actually what they are expected to do, since in the Italian system the accused and their defence have a right to lie. But this doesn't equate to say that one has to buy it.

Potenza raised the issue that Steffanoni did not follow standard protocols. We do not know what he said at the time but he certainly documented objections shortly after. I think this means that the argument that defence had to accept the findings of the incidente probatorio, because they did not object is not valid. They objected to the methodology. This was contested evidence not mutually accepted evidence.

PS I suspect my physics is better than yours.
 
Over 200 people were blown out of the sky at Lockerbie, many of them US students. OK so there is doubt about Megrahi being at Frankfurt.

Vixen, you have no idea what you're talking about, as evidenced by the highlighted words above. Any further elucidation would be off-topic for this thread, but you really need to educate yourself about this case (as well as the Kercher case!) before pontificating further.
 
Please answer my question: what happened to Amanda's coat and the bag for clothes, she took to the cottage the morning after (Raff and her claim)?

Let me deal with this a little differently.

You have an allegation to make, clearly. So, go ahead and make your allegation, explaining what, in connection with Amanda's clothes and apparel you believe is relevant to the case and in some sense incriminating.

State the facts as you see them and make an argument based on them.
 
Over 200 people were blown out of the sky at Lockerbie, many of them US students. OK so there is doubt about Megrahi being at Frankfurt. The Scots gave him a free pardon because of his "terminal" cancer, and - the guy was still alive three years later - here's "Bleedin' Heart" Antony once again sticking up for the murderous perps.

You are ignorant of the Lockerbie case, particularly if you think that it hinges on Megrahi's presence (or not) at Frankfurt. There are other threads discussing it where the faulty legal process is discussed, and also, more cogently, suppressed evidence. It is not within the topic of this thread.

The difference between you and me is that I want to see the evidence presented before accepting a court decision. When that evidence doesn't stack up, I revert to the presumption of innocence, which is evidently something that is meaningless to some - unfortunately, including many judges and juries.
 
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Oh, no. Not her morals.

The rest, yes. But it is only responses to pro-Knoxes arguments, and it's within their racist defamatory campaign.
The truth can't be stopped, and you can't do anyhing about it.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are quite disgusting charachters anyway even independently from their being guilty, this is quite manifest. My human contempt for most members of the the pro-Knox crowd does not help very much communication with them, but if you want to discuss about why Knox and Sollecito are disgusting, just call.

My focus is the Kerchers, not Knox. And the truth. I observe the defamatory campaign of those liars against decent people, I well know who will pay. I feel very strong an well, and I know what I am up to. If talking about sweet evening light is your way to tell me you are only interested in protecting murderers and don't care about the rest, I already know that.


Wow. What an illuminating post. Machiavelli's true colours come flooding through. Knox and Sollecito are "quite disgusting characters". Machiavelli has "human contempt for most members of the pro-Knox crowd". And there's a "racist defamatory campaign" being waged on behalf of Knox and Sollecito.

I think that this hysterical emotional outburst ought to be noted and remembered by anyone who is trying to evaluate anything Machiavelli has written or will write in relation to this case. I would strongly suggest that it subtracts an enormous amount of credibility from all of his arguments on the case, as he is quite clearly deeply emotionally invested. I had expected so much better.
 
You are ignorant of the Lockerbie case, particularly if you think that it hinges on Megrahi's presence (or not) at Frankfurt. There are other threads discussing it where the faulty legal process is discussed, but more cogently suppressed evidence. It is not within the topic of this thread.

The difference between you and me is that I want to see the evidence presented before accepting a court decision. When that evidence doesn't stack up, I revert to the presumption of innocence, which is evidently something that is meaningless to most people - unfortunately, including many judges and juries.
Court decisions are based on assumptions.
There is nothing assumed when planes take off and land, except that both will happen safely.
Courts, juries, prosecutors and the people are particular that flying must be safe, but in no way do they hold judges and juries to remotely comparable standards.
 
Wow. What an illuminating post. Machiavelli's true colours come flooding through. Knox and Sollecito are "quite disgusting characters". Machiavelli has "human contempt for most members of the pro-Knox crowd". And there's a "racist defamatory campaign" being waged on behalf of Knox and Sollecito.

I think that this hysterical emotional outburst ought to be noted and remembered by anyone who is trying to evaluate anything Machiavelli has written or will write in relation to this case. I would strongly suggest that it subtracts an enormous amount of credibility from all of his arguments on the case, as he is quite clearly deeply emotionally invested. I had expected so much better.

Flurry of activity culminating in a spectacular meltdown.
Let me check. Yep, full moon is about to come.
:boxedin:
 
Over 200 people were blown out of the sky at Lockerbie, many of them US students. OK so there is doubt about Megrahi being at Frankfurt. The Scots gave him a free pardon because of his "terminal" cancer, and - the guy was still alive three years later - here's "Bleedin' Heart" Antony once again sticking up for the murderous perps.

Relevant to the topic here, you are also engaging in the logical fallacy of allowing your view towards the judicial process to be influenced by outrage at the crime - something that has distorted not just the online debate in the Kercher case, but the trial itself at some points. Why else would the Kercher lawyer, Maresca, choose to introduce an image of the victim's corpse into the trial, other than to foment emotions against the defendants?
 
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