The Historical Jesus III

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It strikes me as odd that several posters use the lack of contemporary documentation about a non-miraculous Jesus as evidence for the position that there never was one, yet are much less stringent when it comes to their side.
Then all of a sudden, conjecture about mystery cults, secret plots to erase the 'real' history of a religion, and inference that 1st century writers were 'really' referring to a mythical ancestor, are deemed admissible.

The 'lack of contemporary documentation about a non-miraculous Jesus' is relevant to 'the position that there never was one'.

"the 'real' history of a religion" lol. At least you put 'real' in inverted commas.

If any writers were 1st century they were likely to have been just developing a preliminary story nowhere near the eventual NT story. The first documented appearance of Jesus Christ stories are those associated with 2nd century writers and even several of those 2nd century writers own stories appear to be embellished ie. overstated.

The NT stories are almost certainly the result of the efforts of scriptoria through to the 5th century. We know the Ecumenical Councils had roles in the development of the NT narrative beyond the first Codices (Sinaiticus and Vaticanus).
 
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It is actually worse than that.

We cannot identify a single actual author of the NT.

All the NT authors are FAKE.
Unidentified ancient authors are FAKE? Eh? Even by your standards that is weird, dejudge.
 
"conjecture about mystery cults" is not "to 'erase' the 'real' history of a religion"; it's to seek the real history of the development of a religion almost certain to be a syncretic one, as many people have pointed out.
 
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If someone is trying to sell you something say like a plot of land... don't you consider the fact that this salesman has no title deed to the land is significant?




Now you get additional information that the salesman above who does not have the title deed to the land he is trying to sell has been suspected on numerous occasions of being a fraudulent huckster.

Do you wait for him to actually get convicted for the above suspicions of fraud before you are convinced he is a fraud?

Do you also tell yourself the fact that he does not have a title deed could be because he lost it?

Do you then go ahead and still buy the land from him anyway and accept the freshly printed title deed?

You're talking about Richard Carrier, right?
 
Claim A is that myths are historic and that protagonists in fairy tales are real people.

Claim B is that the people who are making claim A have time and again been shown to have been charlatans and mountebanks and hucksters and liars and forgers and prone to deploying all sorts of skullduggery and chicanery and shenanigans to bamboozle people.

The people who fabricated the Christian fraudulent fairy tales were never any different from the list of the flimflammers below.

Imagine if anyone of the con artists in the list below had managed to get enough IMPERIAL might and power behind him and armies so as to wipe out any opposition or critique or analysis of his fakery?

Now imagine being able to wipe out all literature and history proving his fakery.

Now imagine being able to fabricate literature and forge history saying his fakery is truths.

Now imagine doing all the above for centuries upon centuries with total impunity and with any raised objections burnt right out of existence.

What would be the state of those places and regions under the influence of such long established fakery being thought to be God sent truths? Can you imagine such places or cultures? Can you?
Claim A is that the fanciful tales about a first century Jewish preacher who got executed in Jerusalem and his followers who were seeking converts likely have their origin in a first century Jewish preacher who got executed in Jerusalem and his followers who were seeking converts.
Evidence for this is weak because either:
-He wasn't prominent enough during his lifetime to attract attention from historiographers, and his cultists were much more interested in the supernatural claims than in the real story of some guy dying and not coming back to life.
Or because:
-He never existed.
Dismissing the claim that there was a historical Jesus because the evidence is too weak is fine by me.

Claim B, that Jesus was never meant to be an actual person, but was always seen as completely mythical, until the Church started to falsify history is a seperate claim.
This is supported by claiming, among other things:
-The Romans destroyed the Serapeum in the 4th century to hide the true Egyptian origin of Christianity.
-References to a first century CE Jeshua who angered the Romans are actually about a mythical thirteenth century BCE Jeshua.
-Asking us to imagine how historical documents might have been forged.

This evidence is, at best, just as tenuous and circumstantial as the evidence for the other claim. I would expect an impartial observer who dismisses the evidence for A, to also dismiss the evidence for B.
 
No-one is claiming that that Jesus "was always seen as completely mythical".

It's more *narratives about a purported first century CE Jeshua who is said to have angered the Romans* might be "partly based on a aspects of the OT".

The notion that the Egyptian parts of the OT have Egyptian non-Jewish foundations is interesting.

To say documents were forged misrepresents how sects and religious-writers of those times functioned.
 
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No-one is claiming that that Jesus "was always seen as completely mythical".

It's more *narratives about a purported first century CE Jeshua who is said to have angered the Romans* might be "partly based on a aspects of the OT".

The notion that the Egyptian parts of the OT have Egyptian non-Jewish foundations is interesting.

To say documents were forged misrepresents how sects and religious-writers of those times functioned.

The Jesus character, son of the Ghost, God Creator, did not anger the Romans in the myth/fiction fables called the New Testament and apologetic writings.

The son of the Ghost angered the Jews.

The Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, found no fault with Jesus, God Creator.

In fact, in apologetic writings and the myth/fiction fables called Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Corpus it is claimed the Jews KILLED Jesus, God's Sonthe Lord from heaven.

Christians of antiquity argued and preached that the Fall of the Jewish c 70 CE was because the Jews KILLED Jesus, the Transfiguring water walking Logos, born of a Ghost.

It is evident that the Jesus character was ALWAYS without historical data.

The Jesus of Nazareth story is total myth/fiction from conception to ascension.

Examination of writings of antiquity [apologetic and non-apologetic] easily and quickly shows that the Jesus character was a 2nd century invention to EXPLAIN the Fall of the Jewish Temple.

Christian writers of antiquity have already explained this for over 1600 years.

Hippolytus' Refutation of all Heresies"
7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate? Was it on account of that ancient fabrication of the calf? Was it on account of the idolatry of the people? Was it for the blood of the prophets? Was it for the adultery and fornication of Israel? By no means, he says; for in all these transgressions they always found pardon open to them, and benignity; but it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father.

All manuscript and Codices with stories of Jesus are dated to the 2nd century or later.

The Jesus cult was initiated sometime in the 2nd century AFTER people of antiquity BELIEVED the propaganda that the Jews KILLED the Son of God.

In effect, The Romans carried out the Will of God and fulfilled prophecy when they destroyed the Jewish Temple of God and Jerusalem.

Antiquities of the Jews 10
.. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them.


Jesus of Nazareth and the disciples are myth/fiction characters invented AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple and AFTER the writings of Josephus.
 
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This evidence is, at best, just as tenuous and circumstantial as the evidence for the other claim. I would expect an impartial observer who dismisses the evidence for A, to also dismiss the evidence for B.


You have straw manned the entire affair.

You have presented the least stupid of the historicists' hypotheses.

Then you turned around and presented the worst and least likely of the mythicists' hypotheses.

And then you went ahead and equated the "evidence" for said straw men.

The fact is despite your straw manning there is an EXTREME DEARTH of evidence for the historic hypotheses against a COPIOUS PLETHORA of evidence for the skullduggery, chicanery, fakery, forgeries and lies of the charlatans, poltroons, and brigands who fabricated and enforced the Christian fairy tales as reality and bamboozled GENERATIONS of hapless VICTIMS across the globe with it.

The mythicists do not even need to come out with any hypothesis whatsoever... theirs is the NULL hypothesis... it is the historicists who need to come up with a good reason why Jesus of Nazareth is any different from Sinbad The Sailor or John Frum or Robin Hood or Hercules or Jason the Argonaut or Achilles or Harry Potter.

It is the historicists who have to convince us why the SPECIAL PLEADING for Jesus is warranted in deference over other fictional protagonists of other fairy tales.

If you want to see how much straw manning you are doing then please read at least the first book on the list below or watch the videos in the list of video below them


Claim A is that the fanciful tales about a first century Jewish preacher


You mean a first century PATHETIC DELUDED GREAT FOOL no better than any single one of the vile deluded wackos on the list in this post.

If there was a flesh and blood MORON who had anything to do with a BAND OF HOBOING FOOLS then he and they were absolutely no different than Jim Jones and the IDIOTS WHO DRANK THE KOOL-AID.

Imagine if Jim Jones had managed to get enough IMPERIAL might and power behind him and armies so as to wipe out any opposition or critique or analysis of his fakery?

Now imagine being able to wipe out all literature and history proving his fakery.

Now imagine being able to fabricate literature and forge history saying his fakery is truths.

Now imagine doing all the above for centuries upon centuries with total impunity and with any raised objections burnt right out of existence.

What would be the state of those places and regions under the influence of such long established fakery being thought to be God sent truths? Can you imagine such places or cultures? Can you?
 
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It is documented that Christian writers of antiquity admitted their Jesus was the product of a Ghost.

But, it gets far worse.

If anyone says anything against their Ghost their sins shall never ever be forgiven in this world or the world to come.

Matthew 12.32 ---And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come .

It is obvious that people of antiquity did believe Ghosts were actual figures of history.

Jesus of Nazareth was one of them Ghosts.
 
It strikes me as odd that several posters use the lack of contemporary documentation about a non-miraculous Jesus as evidence for the position that there never was one, yet are much less stringent when it comes to their side.
Then all of a sudden, conjecture about mystery cults, secret plots to erase the 'real' history of a religion, and inference that 1st century writers were 'really' referring to a mythical ancestor, are deemed admissible.

Except there is evidence of the first two.

We know there were mystery cults in the time of Christianity (Eleusinian Mysteries for example) and not one record of Christianity exists until at best c95 CE and that reference seems to have been faked.

Which brings up the eraser of the 'real' history of Christianity,

Either no one from 30-95 CE noticed Christianity (or if they didn't didn't note it), Christianity didn't exist for them to notice (which is unlikely), or Christianity was actually a mystery cult which meeting in secret. Pliny the Younger's letter supports the last as he has nearly no knowledge of cult itself but the tone suggest that at some level it is reasonably well known.

As I have noted there IS this pattern of records that could have helped flesh out exactly what happened with Christianity for its first 50 years not being preserved.despite the Christians having ample opportunity to preserve those records.

Again:

* Philo's Embassy to Gaius (c40 CE) is known to have covered at least five volumes including one entire volume that covered Pontius Pilate's rule of Judea in detail which was NOT the two works the Christians preserved and if Philo did mention Jesus the Christian copyists didn't preserve it. This became such a problem that Eusebius in his The History of the Church created the elaborate fiction that Philo not only knew the apostles but met Peter himself in Rome.

* Pliny the Elder's History of Rome from 31 to then present day (sometime before his death in 79) with a volume for each year which the Christians didn't preserve.


* Seneca the Younger's On Superstition (c40 - c62) which covered every cult in Rome was not preserved. The only reason we know it did NOT talk about Christianity at all is Augustine in the 4th century complained about it. But if the book could have been as early as 40 CE that would have made perfect sense so Augustine's issue only makes sense if the work was near the 62 CE date. Seneca's lack of mention was sufficiently troublesome to some early Christians that they forged correspondence between Seneca and Paul of Tarsus. Jerome, in de Viris Illustribus 12, and Augustine, in Epistle 153.4 ad Macedonium, both refer to the forged communication.

* Cassius Dio's Roman History has the sections covering 6 to 2 BC and 30 CE missing.

* Clovius Rufus' detailed history of Nero which would have documented the active persecution of Christians by Nero was not preserved.

Also the Ancient Egyptians were memory holing the reign of Pharaohs they considered an embarrassment and altering the reigns of the other Pharaohs to hid the fact those Pharaohs even existed long before the time of Rome.
 
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Except there is evidence of the first two.

We know there were mystery cults in the time of Christianity (Eleusinian Mysteries for example) and not one record of Christianity exists until at best c95 CE and that reference seems to have been faked....


On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt (Kindle Locations 3699-3714) — Carrier, Richard.
  • All mystery religions centered on a central savior deity (literally called the sōtēr, ‘the savior’, which is essentially the meaning of the word ‘Jesus’, as explained in Chapter 6, § 3), always a son of god (or occasionally a daughter of god),
  • who underwent some sort of suffering (enduring some sort of trial or ordeal) by which they procured salvation for all who participate in their cult (their deed of torment having given them dominion over death).
  • These deaths or trials were literally called a ‘passion’ (patheōn, lit. ‘sufferings’), exactly as in Christianity. 78
  • Sometimes this ‘passion’ was an actual death and resurrection (Osiris); sometimes it was some kind of terrible labor defeating the forces of death (Mithras), or variations thereof.
  • All mystery religions had an initiation ritual in which the congregant symbolically reenacts what the god endured (like Christian baptism: Rom. 6.3-4; Col. 2.12), thus sharing in the salvation the god had achieved (Gal. 3.27; 1 Cor. 12.13), and
  • all involve a ritual meal that unites initiated members in communion with one another and their god (1 Cor. 11.23-28). All of these features are fundamental to Christianity, yet equally fundamental to all the mystery cults that were extremely popular in the very era that Christianity arose.
Not to mention that the NT itself says it is a mystery cult
  • Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
  • Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
  • Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
  • Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.
  • Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
  • 1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
  • 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
  • Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself
  • Ephesians 3:3-5 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; as I wrote afore in few words, whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
  • Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
  • Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
  • and on
  • and on
 
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The Jesus character, son of the Ghost, God Creator, did not anger the Romans in the myth/fiction fables called the New Testament and apologetic writings.

The son of the Ghost angered the Jews.

The Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, found no fault with Jesus, [/b]

I'm sure Tacitus would be stunned to hear this.:rolleyes:
 
dejudge said:
The Jesus character, son of the Ghost, God Creator, did not anger the Romans in the myth/fiction fables called the New Testament and apologetic writings.

The son of the Ghost angered the Jews.

The Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, found no fault with Jesus,

I'm sure Tacitus would be stunned to hear this.:rolleyes:

I am sure the existing manuscripts of Tacitus' Annals do not identify anyone as Jesus of Nazareth.

I am not stunned that it has been conclusively shown that Tacitus' Annals was manipulated.
 
I am sure the existing manuscripts of Tacitus' Annals do not identify anyone as Jesus of Nazareth.

I am not stunned that it has been conclusively shown that Tacitus' Annals was manipulated.

No he mentioned Christus who suffered the extreme penalty under pontius, and whose followers were called Christians, and the reference is considered authentic and authoritative by the vast majority of scholars, but I am just going to go ahead and take your word for it.....

:rolleyes:
 
It is obvious that people of antiquity did believe Ghosts were actual figures of history.

Jesus of Nazareth was one of them Ghosts.
About a thousand times in this thread you've said that the Historical Jesus was a modern invention. Now you are saying that them people who lived in antiquity obviously DID believe that Jesus was an actual figure of history. So make up your mind.
 
I am sure the existing manuscripts of Tacitus' Annals do not identify anyone as Jesus of Nazareth.

I am not stunned that it has been conclusively shown that Tacitus' Annals was manipulated.
The passage referring to Christians has not been conclusively shown to be an interpolation, and you saying so is evidence of nothing. In earlychristianwritings we read
But there are good reasons for concluding with the vast majority of scholars that this passage is fundamentally sound, despite difficulties which result in no small measure from Tacitus' own compressed style. The overall style and content of this chapter are typically Tacitean. The passage fits well in its context and is the necessary conclusion to the entire discussion of the burning of Rome.
The objection to Tacitus is that his source of information consisted probably of Christian contacts decades after the fire, so that he is not an independent witness to the events he relates. That is the conclusion of modern scholarship.

By the way, since you equate the date of the earliest extant manuscript with the date of composition, you must logically believe either that Tacitus was entirely forged, or that he lived in the fifteenth century.

But that is the implication, not of scholarship, but of your own utterly idiotic theories of historiography; and the rest of us are not required to stumble along with you into this bottomless swamp of absurdity in which you will finally sink out of sight into the depths of oblivion.
 
Christian writers of antiquity put out the propaganda that the Jews killed their Jesus, the Son of God.


1. Aristides' Apology ---The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel....... But he himself was pierced by the Jews

2. Justin's Dialogue with Trypho" ---For other nations have not inflicted on us and on Christ this wrong to such an extent as you have, who in very deed are the authors of the wicked prejudice against the Just One, and us who hold by Him. For after that you had crucified Him, the only blameless and righteous Man....[/quote]

3. Tertullian's Answer to the Jews---let the Jews recognise their own fate—a fate which they were constantly foretold as destined to incur after the advent of the Christ, on account of the impiety with which they despised and slew Him.

4. Hippolytus "Against the Jews"--- 7 But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate?...... it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor,

5. Origen's Against Celsus---he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet,

6. Lactantius' How the Persecutors died"---In the latter days of the Emperor Tiberius, in the consulship of Ruberius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, and on the tenth of the kalends of April, as I find it written, Jesus Christ was crucified by the Jews.

7. Chrysostom's "Against the Jews--- I told him he was no better off than a mule if he, who professed to worship Christ, would drag someone off to the dens of the Jews who had crucified him


8. 1 Thessalonians 2. 14--- For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophet

9. Acts 2.22--- Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know : 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken , and by wicked hands have crucified and slain
 
No he mentioned Christus who suffered the extreme penalty under pontius, and whose followers were called Christians, and the reference is considered authentic and authoritative by the vast majority of scholars, but I am just going to go ahead and take your word for it.....

:rolleyes:


All the Tacitus passage written ca. 116 CE indicates is that Tacitus was aware of the Christian MOST MISCHIEVOUS SUPERSTITION and was reporting what their HIDEOUS and SHAMEFUL EVIL beliefs were and how HATEFUL they were.

It does not mean that there was any truth to the evil superstition nor does it mean that Tacitus knew anything about it other than what he learned from the criminals who adhered to the hateful and hideously shameful myth.

If it wasn't for the morbid lust for jihad martyrdom that early Christians had, they probably would have tried their darnedest to erase this passage from history. But it looks like they couldn't have been able to since they did not modify it. Perhaps they also wanted to show how those vile Romans hated Christianity and thus left it as it was.

Tacitus must have been quite an intelligent and prescient bloke. I must say he summed up Christianity quite nicely; it is amazing how timeless his comments are!

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular[/B][/HILITE]. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".
 
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No he mentioned Christus who suffered the extreme penalty under pontius, and whose followers were called Christians, and the reference is considered authentic and authoritative by the vast majority of scholars, but I am just going to go ahead and take your word for it.....

:rolleyes:

As I pointed out before Remsberg who felt that things were just on the Jesus existed side of the fence pointed out there was a LOT WRONG with Tacitus:

"This passage, accepted as authentic by many, must be declared doubtful, if not spurious, for the following reasons:
1. It is not quoted by the Christian fathers.

2. Tertullian was familiar with the writings of Tacitus, and his arguments demanded the citation of this evidence had it existed.

3. Clement of Alexandria, at the beginning of the third century, made a compilation of all the recognitions of Christ and Christianity that had been made by Pagan writers up to his time. The writings of Tacitus furnished no recognition of them.

4. Origen, in his controversy with Celsus, would undoubtedly have used it had it existed.

5. The ecclesiastical historian Eusebius, in the fourth century, cites all the evidences of Christianity obtainable from Jewish and Pagan sources, but makes no mention of Tacitus.

6. It is not quoted by any Christian writer prior to the fifteenth century.

7. At this time but one copy of the Annals existed and this copy, it is claimed, was made in the eighth century -- 600 years after the time of Tacitus.

8. As this single copy was in the possession of a Christian the insertion of a forgery was easy.

9. Its severe criticisms of Christianity do not necessarily disprove its Christian origin. No ancient witness was more desirable than Tacitus, but his introduction at so late a period would make rejection certain unless Christian forgery could be made to appear improbable.

10. It is admitted by Christian writers that the works of Tacitus have not been preserved with any considerable degree of fidelity. In the writings ascribed to him are believed to be some of the writings of Quintilian.

11. The blood-curdling story about the frightful orgies of Nero reads like some Christian romance of the dark ages, and not like Tacitus.

12. In fact, this story, in nearly the same words, omitting the reference to Christ, is to be found in the writings of Sulpicius Severus, a Christian of the fifth century.

13. Suetonius, while mercilessly condemning the reign of Nero, says that in his public entertainments he took particular care that no human lives should be sacrificed, "not even those of condemned criminals."

14. At the time that the conflagration occurred, Tacitus himself declares that Nero was not in Rome, but at Antium.

Many who accept the authenticity of this section of the "Annals" believe that the sentence which declares that Christ was punished in the reign of Pontius Pilate, and which I have italicized, is an interpolation."

The Tacitus passages require that EVERY Christians who knew or used Tacitus to miss it for about 14 centuries :boggled:



Also it has been noted there is a strange temporal jump in this part of the Annals in that it goes back from the time of Nero to the time of Tiberius and returns back to Nero again. As noted by Jay Raskin "Tacitus would have had to explain more about the suppression of the new superstition if it died out in the 30’s and started again in Rome around in the 60’s. (The Fire was in 64). If the outbreak of the superstition happened in the time of Nero, as Josephus reports, there would be no need to explain what happened."

He theorizes that the passage originally read as follows:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite punishments on a class hated for their disgraceful acts, called Chrestians by the populace. Chrestus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty (i.e., Crucifixion) during the reign of Nero at the hands of one of our procurators, Porcius Festus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular."


Change four words and presto chango you have evidence for Jesus and we KNOW the "Chrestians" was tampered with.

In fact, the above fits very well with Josephus book 20:8.10:

"Upon Festus’s coming into Judea, it happened that Judea was afflicted by the robbers, while all the villages were set on fire, and plundered by them. And then it was that the sicarii, as they were called, who were robbers, grew numerous. They made use of small swords, not much different in length from the Persian acinacae, but somewhat crooked, and like the Roman sicae, [or sickles,] as they were called; and from these weapons these robbers got their denomination; and with these weapons they slew a great many; for they mingled themselves among the multitude at their festivals, when they were come up in crowds from all parts to the city to worship God, as we said before, and easily slew those that they had a mind to slay. They also came frequently upon the villages belonging to their enemies, with their weapons, and plundered them, and set them on fire. So Festus sent forces, both horsemen and footmen, to fall upon those that had been seduced by a certain impostor, who promised them deliverance and freedom from the miseries they were under, if they would but follow him as far as the wilderness. Accordingly, those forces that were sent destroyed both him that had deluded them, and those that were his followers also."


More over it was stated by Epiphanius in Panarion 29 in the 4th century that "this group did not name themselves after Christ or with Jesus’ own name, but "Natzraya." a term that was applied to all followers of Jesus. He then relates that they were even called Jessaeans for a time.

In fact, Chrestians only appears in one place in the entire Bible as we know it: Acts and there is evidence that Act was using Josephus's Antiquities as cliff note to flesh out events meaning it could not have been written any earlier then c 94 CE. So the original movement could have been still calling itself Natzraya or Jessaeans clear up to 93 CE.

Raskin makes a good point about the whole Chrestians-Christ thing:

"It seems ridiculous to say that Chrestians (the good ones) came from Christ (the anointed one). It is like saying that the followers of Lenin are called Lenenists or the followers of Stalin are called Stalenists, or the followers of Jefferson are called Jiffersonians or the followers of Woodrow Wilson are called Welsonians. It is not an easy thing to get the letters “i” and “e” mixed up in this way. Nobody refers to the founder of Mormonism as Joseph Smeth when they mean Joseph Smith."
 
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Christian writers of antiquity put out the propaganda that the Jews killed their Jesus, the Son of God.

1. Aristides' Apology ---The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel....... But he himself was pierced by the Jews
<snip rest of statements to this effect>

But of course the accounts of the crucifixion don't state that the Jews "pierced" Jesus. They state plainly that the Romans "pierced" Jesus. The later Christian writers were often motivated by extreme hostility towards Jews. Chrysostom, for Heaven's sake! What is his opinion on Jews worth? Nothing at all.

Here's Mark's account.
The soldiers led Jesus away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium) and called together the whole company of soldiers. 17 They put a purple robe on him, then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on him. 18 And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!” 19 Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him. 20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him out to crucify him ... 25 It was nine in the morning when they crucified him.
Whether this is true or not, it imputes the "piercing" of Jesus to the Romans.
 
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