Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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You really need to stop parsing little tidbits that no one else in the world cares about, and start focusing on the bigger issues, like: what the Italian justice system can learn from this case and how it can make itself better.

Machiavelli ends up trashing Judge Nencini, by implying that it doesn't matter if the glove contaminatef the clasp, or if the floor contaminated the clasp, or if the floor contaminated the glove which contaminated the clasp.....

The point for him is as suspect-centric as even the Nencini analysis Machiavelli rejects!!!!!

Machiavelli should return to the big ticket conspiracy where the Masons mediated a hijacking of the Italian courts, using American media money.

Yet he has to accuse Italian judges of crimes to do that. No wonder he's stuck accusing Vecchiotti of things, taken out of context.
 
Originally Posted by Machiavelli
I think it is exactly the same thing. Insofar as it contains that very implication within itself: that they were not intellectually honest.
However I note that in fact there is a slight difference: if we want to analyze fine implications of the SC wording, in fact the Court says even a bit more than that, since it does not link strictly their not being "fully honest" to the fact of not testing alone. There is a kind of juxtaposition rather than an exclusive causal link expressed. The pointing out that they should have been honest on that decision bu they weren't, by my reading of this passage, does not depend only on the fact that they made an undue decision about not going forward with the testing, but also in more general terms to the way how they took the decision, the non transparent way how they justified and presented their decision through the trial.



I think I did not ignore the premise. But the conclusion cannot be different than pointing out that the experts are not to be regarded as intellectually honest. There isn't really a possible second meaning in this comment by Chieffi court, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise and I can't see an alternative purpose on the part of SC to make this note, but as a pointing out that the experts were dishonest.​

You really need to stop parsing little tidbits that no one else in the world cares about, and start focusing on the bigger issues, like: what the Italian justice system can learn from this case and how it can make itself better.



I agree with this. I am constantly in wonder how someone can nitpick words and twist them into desired meaning. On the other hand, I have no doubt that some in his community, accepting the illogic of the premise posed by the ISC, will read it as "dishonesty" when phrased as "should do something in a intellectually honest way" (paraphrased). So they hop from not liking it that scientists exercised scientific judgment, to calling them dishonest. And using that in arguments - often conspiratorial.

Now, to get him to look at the big picture will be kind of difficult in that his eyes are blinded by seeming anger. It seems even more than suspect-centric bias. How do you get them to see the irrationality of finding fault in scientists doing their work in a scientific manner? And then calling them dishonest?

Good luck for the big picture.
 
Funny how human beings can see things so differently. Is it cultural, or do the synapses just not operate the same way between the two sides of this crazy debate?

I'd love to see a psychological study where the topic is: What type of thinking is it that says that touching a piece of forensic evidence with dirty gloves is NOT contamination, because the dirt came from the same room that the piece of evidence was in.?

Oh, and the people accused have to prove the DNA was contaminated -- even though there is a video of the person touching the exact spot that the DNA was found with dirty gloves.

Yet, some people continue to argue this, and think anyone that disagrees is not just wrong, but corrupt and paid to put forth the contrary argument.

It's a strange world we live in folks.
 
Funny how human beings can see things so differently. Is it cultural, or do the synapses just not operate the same way between the two sides of this crazy debate?

I'd love to see a psychological study where the topic is: What type of thinking is it that says that touching a piece of forensic evidence with dirty gloves is NOT contamination, because the dirt came from the same room that the piece of evidence was in.?

Oh, and the people accused have to prove the DNA was contaminated -- even though there is a video of the person touching the exact spot that the DNA was found with dirty gloves.

Yet, some people continue to argue this, and think anyone that disagrees is not just wrong, but corrupt and paid to put forth the contrary argument.

It's a strange world we live in folks.

It is rather interesting to wonder how the SC motivazione will handle the clasp and knife evidence. Obviously they are going to say it is unreliable but what precisely will they say? This forum could right those parts rather well I feel.
 
It is rather interesting to wonder how the SC motivazione will handle the clasp and knife evidence. Obviously they are going to say it is unreliable but what precisely will they say? This forum could right those parts rather well I feel.

I am wondering if the reason it is taking extra time is that the ISC judges are trying to figure out how to explain the verdict without throwing the PM, police, previous judges, etc. under the bus. It must be a real challenge to point out why the evidence is not reliable, yet not say why.
 
Excellent little interview here:

http://www.nature.com/news/forensics-specialist-discusses-a-discipline-in-crisis-1.16870

...with Niamh Nic Daéid of the University of Dundee, UK.

Following on from Diocletus introduction of the Mark Dwyer decision in New York, it seems that the good judge has sent out some international shockwaves.

"So the courts just don't trust some of these forensic techniques?

I think that’s increasingly occurring. For example, in the United States a judge [Mark Dwyer] refused the admission of DNA evidence in his courtroom because of the current debate in the forensic-science literature. That’s really worrying."


It ought to be abundantly clear to any jurist with a degree of scientific understanding that LCN DNA typing is - by its very nature - a tool that should be used only with extreme caution.

It should be abundantly clear because the very rationale for low-template analysis - i.e. the attempt to generate DNA profiles where only minuscule amounts of DNA are available - presents self-evident problems. The four most important and relevant problems are these:

1) Contamination at every level of the process (collection of evidence, storage and transportation of evidence, testing of evidence). At these tiny levels, even airborne DNA contamination is a potential problem. And certainly tertiary touch contamination and machine contamination are possibilities.

2) Amplification of noise which is subsequently misinterpreted.

3) Misinterpretation of EDFs and electropherograms - including improper, subjective, suspect-centric interpretations.

4) Lack of repeatability of amplifications and testing, owing to the tiny amounts. This causes very real problems relating to confirmation and validation of the test outputs and their interpretations.

For these reasons (and others), the very minimum requirement is that any low-template evidence is collected, transported and stored in ultra-sterile conditions, and that it is then tested under extremely stringent protocols (including positive pressure hoods to exclude airborne lab contamination, and incredibly thorough (including UV) cleaning of all surfaces, machines and tools in the lab). Even then, the inherent imprecision attached to low-template work may still mean that it still does not qualify as probative evidence in a criminal justice environment.

Of course, it goes without saying that not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni and her band of goons fell at pretty much every single hurdle when it came to low-template work in the Kercher case. Every sane, non-partisan DNA expert in the World would readily state that the LCN evidence in the Kercher case was totally worthless and unreliable.
 
It is rather interesting to wonder how the SC motivazione will handle the clasp and knife evidence. Obviously they are going to say it is unreliable but what precisely will they say? This forum could right those parts rather well I feel.


I just hope that they won't take the weasel way out (on every issue, and not just the clasp and knife) of taking the position that there was just too much contradictory evidence and too little truly exculpatory evidence to justify convictions. I have a sneaking feeling that this is exactly what they might say, however. We'll see. Eventually........
 
I am wondering if the reason it is taking extra time is that the ISC judges are trying to figure out how to explain the verdict without throwing the PM, police, previous judges, etc. under the bus. It must be a real challenge to point out why the evidence is not reliable, yet not say why.

The 2013 version of the ISC, the Chieffi court, made a strange statement....

Similarly well‐founded is the further objection raised by the public party, on the fact that
the [appeal] court passively accepted the assertions of the experts of a vague inadequacy
of the investigations carried out by the Scientific Police. The experts did not redo these
tests because they deemed the two samples (36 and 165B) inadequate for obtaining a
genetic profile, and also because it could not be ruled out that the result that was obtained
could have derived from “contamination phenomena occurring in any phase of the sampling
and/or manipulation and/or the analyses carried out”. From page 75 to page 85 the court
reiterated the considerations expressed in the expert report, which in truth were the
subject of severe disagreement by professors Novelli and Torricelli, consultants to the
Prosecutor General and the Civil Parties, whose authority was completely ignored. Prof.
Novelli did agree with the fact that there are protocols and recommendations, but added
that above all the technician’s competence and common sense must come into play,
(hearing 6.9.2011, page 59 of transcript), otherwise every DNA analysis from 1986 onwards could be called into question.
It is dangerous to pull on the threads of innocence.
 
I am wondering if the reason it is taking extra time is that the ISC judges are trying to figure out how to explain the verdict without throwing the PM, police, previous judges, etc. under the bus. It must be a real challenge to point out why the evidence is not reliable, yet not say why.

I bet you are right. This whole thing was a farce. But they can't say that. That wouldn't play well with the system. Even though they should.. Italy is in need of reform and this very public case shows that.
 
I am wondering if the reason it is taking extra time is that the ISC judges are trying to figure out how to explain the verdict without throwing the PM, police, previous judges, etc. under the bus. It must be a real challenge to point out why the evidence is not reliable, yet not say why.

Who knows really? We had a taste from an article released shortly after the verdict in March from that Italian lady reporter, whom I think Amanda had sued over disclosures from her diary that the reporter lady had obtained through theft, or as Mach would say, "through proper channels".

In any event, I don't get the sense that they are looking to be diplomatic here. They put an end to a nearly 8 year court process, and reportedly were visibly angry at the absurd arguments being made to them, such as scientifically impossible clean-ups.

I think all they have to do is rely on Conti and Vecchiotti to toss the DNA evidence. And then highlight the farcical parade of tramps, feeble minded, and charlatans that Mignini trotted into a courtroom, and say none are reliable.

Big question for me, is how they come to terms with the calunnia conviction. It's their last chance to own that conviction, before ECHR fixes their wagon. I gone on record saying I believe they will vacate that conviction for calunnia, and I don't mind being wrong, i'm sticking to it.

Anyway, can't be much longer now, can it?
 
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It ought to be abundantly clear to any jurist with a degree of scientific understanding that LCN DNA typing is - by its very nature - a tool that should be used only with extreme caution.

It should be abundantly clear because the very rationale for low-template analysis - i.e. the attempt to generate DNA profiles where only minuscule amounts of DNA are available - presents self-evident problems. The four most important and relevant problems are these:

1) Contamination at every level of the process (collection of evidence, storage and transportation of evidence, testing of evidence). At these tiny levels, even airborne DNA contamination is a potential problem. And certainly tertiary touch contamination and machine contamination are possibilities.

2) Amplification of noise which is subsequently misinterpreted.

3) Misinterpretation of EDFs and electropherograms - including improper, subjective, suspect-centric interpretations.

4) Lack of repeatability of amplifications and testing, owing to the tiny amounts. This causes very real problems relating to confirmation and validation of the test outputs and their interpretations.

For these reasons (and others), the very minimum requirement is that any low-template evidence is collected, transported and stored in ultra-sterile conditions, and that it is then tested under extremely stringent protocols (including positive pressure hoods to exclude airborne lab contamination, and incredibly thorough (including UV) cleaning of all surfaces, machines and tools in the lab). Even then, the inherent imprecision attached to low-template work may still mean that it still does not qualify as probative evidence in a criminal justice environment.

Of course, it goes without saying that not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni and her band of goons fell at pretty much every single hurdle when it came to low-template work in the Kercher case. Every sane, non-partisan DNA expert in the World would readily state that the LCN evidence in the Kercher case was totally worthless and unreliable.

I'm thinking DNA should only be used for investigative purposes, unless it can be shown to appear in an incriminating location, like inside a body.

It seems to me like the idea of using DNA as "proof of a crime" is inherently a logical fallacy.
 
Who knows really? We had a taste from an article released shortly after the verdict in March from that Italian lady reporter, whom I think Amanda had sued over disclosures from her diary that the reporter lady had obtained through theft, or as Mach would say, "through proper channels".

In any event, I don't get the sense that they are looking to be diplomatic here. They put an end to a nearly 8 year court process, and reportedly were visibly angry at the absurd arguments being made to them, such as scientifically impossible clean-ups.

I think all they have to do is rely on Conti and Vecchiotti to toss the DNA evidence. And then highlight the farcical parade of tramps, feeble minded, and charlatans that Mignini trotted into a courtroom, and say none are reliable.

Big question for me, is how they come to terms with the calunnia conviction. It's their last chance to own that conviction, before ECHR fixes their wagon. I gone on record saying I believe they will vacate that conviction for calunnia, and I don't mind being wrong, i'm sticking to it.

Anyway, can't be much longer now, can it?

Unless I am misunderstanding the process, I don't think they have that option. It certainly doesn't make sense in light of the not guilty verdicts for the murder. Which may also be making this a very hard motivation to write.

I'm picturing one of those scenes where a person is trying to write a letter, but is struggling because, although they know what they really want to say, they can't quite bring themselves to write it down!!!

Hmmm, let's see. The performance of the Scientific Police was criminal, abominable, haphazard, deceptive, mediocre, misguided, mistaken, honorable but ineffective.
 
Funny how human beings can see things so differently. Is it cultural, or do the synapses just not operate the same way between the two sides of this crazy debate?

I'd love to see a psychological study where the topic is: What type of thinking is it that says that touching a piece of forensic evidence with dirty gloves is NOT contamination, because the dirt came from the same room that the piece of evidence was in.?
Oh, and the people accused have to prove the DNA was contaminated -- even though there is a video of the person touching the exact spot that the DNA was found with dirty gloves.

Yet, some people continue to argue this, and think anyone that disagrees is not just wrong, but corrupt and paid to put forth the contrary argument.

It's a strange world we live in folks.

I think for some it is a matter of protecting the PLE officials such as Mignini. Stefanoni, and Napoleoni from fault. It is a refusal to see that they made serious mistakes. If Stefanoni is videotaped touching the bra clasp hooks with dirty gloves, it is OK because she got the dirt from inside the room. :boggled:
 
I think for some it is a matter of protecting the PLE officials such as Mignini. Stefanoni, and Napoleoni from fault. It is a refusal to see that they made serious mistakes. If Stefanoni is videotaped touching the bra clasp hooks with dirty gloves, it is OK because she got the dirt from inside the room. :boggled:

It seems that anything was OK, as long as it points to guilt. Because they knew who was guilty before they started. Proving that was of secondary concern.
 
I am wondering if the reason it is taking extra time is that the ISC judges are trying to figure out how to explain the verdict without throwing the PM, police, previous judges, etc. under the bus. It must be a real challenge to point out why the evidence is not reliable, yet not say why.

This is my guess as well. The judges have to frame their rejection of the Nencini verdict - and re-instatement of Hellmann in effect if not explicitly - in language that doesn't imply that charges have to be brought against the authors of the fraudulent prosecution.
 
Very interesting. Made me do a little search, myself, and I came up with this one, which I find fascinating:

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/06/24/the-surprisingly-imperfect-science-of-dna-testing

Wow! What a piece! And what a case!

Like this?

"Even the most automated part of the process — the analysis performed by machines — varies from lab to lab. Among other tasks, forensic profiling equipment amplifies DNA to an observable level. Most labs amplify DNA to the maximum the manufacturer recommends. But when that isn’t enough to produce legible spikes, some labs will hike up amplification or otherwise futz with the settings to get results.
The whole subject area is a mess. Different analysts coming up with widely differing results. The ranges are astounding. Juries shouldn't be exposed to it.
 
The 2013 version of the ISC, the Chieffi court, made a strange statement....

It is dangerous to pull on the threads of innocence.

"Novelli did agree with the fact that there are protocols and recommendations, but added that above all the technician’s competence and common sense must come into play,(hearing 6.9.2011, page 59 of transcript), otherwise every DNA analysis from 1986 onwards could be called into question."

The problem is that the technician's competence and common sense (or the lack of it) does come into play. But, what we've learned is that a group of technicians, whose competence and common sense there is no reason to doubt, comes up with wildly differing results, which is why all the data needs to be disclosed in order to identify areas of disagreement over interpretation.

And that's before you consider possible attempts at deception and rigging.
 
Are you sure Stefanoni wasn't wearing the gloves in the living area or hallway touching objects or surfaces or moving equipment before she entered Meredith's bedroom? To know the answer to that we would need to see video of her first entering the bedroom with ungloved hands and then putting on gloves, or entering the bedroom wearing a different pair of gloves and then changing gloves. If the latter, I would like to see in the video exactly how she removed a first pair of gloves and how she put on a second pair. I would also like to see what else she touched with the same gloves she is videotaped wearing when she grips the fabric clasp precisely at the edge containing the metal hook.

The bra clasp was reportedly found on the floor under a rug. Is there video of that? Did Stefanoni find it wearing these gloves or did another person in the room lift up the rug, see the clasp, pick it up, and pass the clasp to Stefanoni?

While we are on this subject, why did Stefanoni handle the bra clasp, hold it up for the camera, place it on the floor to be photographed as if in original situ, pick it up again, and show it to the camera again? Was she grandstanding with the clasp or does she do that with all small items of evidence?


Do you agree the DNA found on the sweater is also therefore suspect, for the same reasons?
 
Unless I am misunderstanding the process, I don't think they have that option. It certainly doesn't make sense in light of the not guilty verdicts for the murder. Which may also be making this a very hard motivation to write.

I'm picturing one of those scenes where a person is trying to write a letter, but is struggling because, although they know what they really want to say, they can't quite bring themselves to write it down!!!

Hmmm, let's see. The performance of the Scientific Police defenses was criminal, abominable, haphazard, deceptive, mediocre, misguided, mistaken, dishonorable and ineffective.

FIFY
 
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