Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Can you point to a recent criminal case in the UK where there was similar denied discovery? What's the most recent case you can find? What is our procedure?


As the defense request of Stefanoni was (she told the court) a precedent, perhaps you can provide a similar case where a defense unreasonably requested data outside the time limits and which were not conventionally a part of the evidence.

In addition, this will need to be a case where no specific reason was given (for example, "on the grounds there is a error in para X page Y"), but rather a generic fishing expedition in the hope of quibbling and wasting court time.

ETA It is an every day occurrence in the UK for judges to deny requests for disclosure.
 
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There is no "can of worms". The idea Stefanoni "fiddled" the DNA results is a fantasy. Does that mean the results for Rudy are also invalid? The sweater was also not collected until 18th December 2007. Rudy's DNA was found on the cuffs.

I guess that was due to corruption, and contamination from dirty gloves and DNA transfer from the door knob, too.

Then you are in favour of releasing the raw data files. There is no way of determining the legitimacy of Stefanoni's findings without them.

As for Rudy, he has never denied being in the murder room. I have no idea if the raw data files were ever turned over at his set of fast-track trials. But the DNA evidence is not the sum total of the compelling evidence against him. He has never denied being in that room or of assaulting Meredith. His claim was that it was consensual.
 
As the defense request of Stefanoni was (she told the court) a precedent, perhaps you can provide a similar case where a defense unreasonably requested data outside the time limits and which were not conventionally a part of the evidence.

In addition, this will need to be a case where no specific reason was given (for example, "on the grounds there is a error in para X page Y"), but rather a generic fishing expedition in the hope of quibbling and wasting court time.

How on earth did you manage to build 3 falsehoods into a single hypothetical question?


a defense unreasonably requested data

False. Requesting raw data is not at all "unreasonable," but rather, prudent. Especially when dealing with technicians who have a strained relationship with the truth.

outside the time limits

False. The request was granted by Massei, and not denied on grounds of untimeliness. In fact, how can anything be untimely in an Italian trial? They last forever.

and which were not conventionally a part of the evidence.

Per the ECHR, raw data "Conventionally" is a part of what the defense gets.
 
What's amusing is how seriously people take Mensa given the intellectual capacity of some of its members.

The ECHR has transformed the legal landscape of all Member States in both civil and criminal law. To take the example of the UK, the convention has become the essential focus for all Parliamentary legislation, the deliberations of courts, the policies and procedures of human resources departments with regard to conditions of employment and the policies and procedures of all local and national government agencies. It is one of the most important sources upon which the equality and fairness of treatment of all citizens is based.

You personally have benefitted from the convention at least to the extent that it provides a shield against discriminatory practices and ensures that anyone who must deal with you from an institutional perspective must be mindful of your human rights.

The convention, a joke for you but a vital component of society for everyone, caused the urgent re-evaluation of procedural law in the UK in the Cadder v HM Advocate case before the Supreme Court.

Of particular relevance to our case, the "post-Salduz" world is one in which every citizen of every member state lives in and every visitor is embraced by. Slowly but surely each legal system with a hangover judicial culture still leaning upon a pre rights based interpretation of justice, is being challenged, dismantled and rebuilt. Italy, for example has been compelled to adjust its constitution, pass new law and provide for the re-opening of cases, which previously were not permitted to be re-opened, as a result of the convention's influence, which has now acquired constitutional status. All Italian courts are under an obligation to interpret domestic law in a convention compliant manner. Egregiously, in our case, this did not happen, otherwise it would have been ended by Judge Matteini, but there is no question at all that the ECHR will side with Amanda Knox in the evaluation of her application.

Interestingly, because the murder case has resulted in an eventual acquittal, a more direct assault on the lack of convention compliance in Italy, despite the legal basis of the convention in that country will not now be made by the ECHR from our case, however, once the callunia application has been decided, I doubt very much whether there will be much scope left for police and prosecutors to conduct rogue interrogations again.


Only in theory. When I was in insolvency practice only ONE applicant was able to save his home (as a bankrupt) from being sold off by his trustees in bankruptcy on the grounds his young son was severely handicapped, citing the Human Rights Act.

Insolvency pratitioners routinely throw young children - disabled or not - onto the streets with their families.

Most lawyers I know see the HR Act as a joke as courts are blind to it and any client who wants to plead "human rights" is seen as a crank.
 
Maybe she will visit in 10 or 20 years. I have this scenario of a middle-aged Amanda visiting Perugia to place a red rose on the grave of Mignini (as a gesture of forgiveness).

Wouldn't that be touching?

Get it? "Red Rose"?
Gawd, you people are dense!
 
As the defense request of Stefanoni was (she told the court) a precedent, perhaps you can provide a similar case where a defense unreasonably requested data outside the time limits and which were not conventionally a part of the evidence.

In addition, this will need to be a case where no specific reason was given (for example, "on the grounds there is a error in para X page Y"), but rather a generic fishing expedition in the hope of quibbling and wasting court time.

ETA It is an every day occurrence in the UK for judges to deny requests for disclosure.

Yes I realised you wouldn't be able to meet this challenge just as you've failed to meet every other one.

The defence request was before the Micheli court, so pre-trial. Therefore your premise is ludicrous. It should not have been required anyway.

But provision of raw data in DNA cases in the UK and the U.S. is always a part of the verification of results.

I'm not interested in the denial of any old request. I was interested if you could cite a case where the the provision of raw data was denied to the defence. And, of course you can't. Why that doesn't permit you to realise that the defence in this case were denied access to essential information and that this caused the whole trial to be tainted is beyond me. Your allusion to a fishing expedition is embarrassingly, ridiculously, beyond crass.
 
Vixen said:
As the defense request of Stefanoni was (she told the court) a precedent, perhaps you can provide a similar case where a defense unreasonably requested data outside the time limits and which were not conventionally a part of the evidence.

In addition, this will need to be a case where no specific reason was given (for example, "on the grounds there is a error in para X page Y"), but rather a generic fishing expedition in the hope of quibbling and wasting court time.

How on earth did you manage to build 3 falsehoods into a single hypothetical question?

1) Requesting the raw data is a precedent? THAT precedent is enshrined in law, and the "request" is always (well, almost always!) granted. The RIS Carabinieri at the 2013 Florence trial brought the raw data with them to give to the court as a matter of procedure. It's amazing how and why anyone would want to peddle the guilter lie that it was anything otherwise.

2) There is no such thing as the defence "unreasonably" requesting the raw data files. There is no such thing as the raw data files being "outside" the conventionality of the evidence. There is no such thing as any request being outside some time limit. If the limits have passed and the raw data files STILL a not handed over that in and of itself should invalidate the DNA evidence as being incomplete. (That's like the prosecution saying that they have pictures of the defendant committing the crime, but that the prosecution sees no need to turn over those pictures to the court or the defence. Then when they DON'T turn over the pictures and the defence complains, that the prosecution gets to say, "But Y'honour, the defendant is guilty. Afterall we have pictures!")

3) The defence does not need a specific reason to have full disclosure of ALL the evidence used against them. Indeed, it's the prosecution which needs to have a specific reason for entering stuff into evidence. The reason why the defence has a right to that is to be able to check for themselves if the evidence supports the conclusion of guilt. Where you come up with this "fishing trip" analogy shows an ignorance. I's like you are saying that the prosecution gets to say anything it wants about any piece of evidence, and then in withholding their proof says, "trust us." That's not how it works.
 
Only in theory. When I was in insolvency practice only ONE applicant was able to save his home (as a bankrupt) from being sold off by his trustees in bankruptcy on the grounds his young son was severely handicapped, citing the Human Rights Act.

Insolvency pratitioners routinely throw young children - disabled or not - onto the streets with their families.

Most lawyers I know see the HR Act as a joke as courts are blind to it and any client who wants to plead "human rights" is seen as a crank.

Oh dear. It gets worse. The Human Rights Act, which directly enshrines the jurisprudence of the ECHR within our legal system is supreme evidence that courts are not only not blind to it, but that they have an obligation to rule according to it.

Nobody ever claimed that the HRA or the convention provided an essential human rights defence to forfeiture when someone hasn't paid their debts. Under certain circumstances extenuating human rights considerations will have an influence, but this is a hugely complex area of the law.

Your silly argument seeks to imply that because the convention does not allow people to write off their debts, it has negligible influence on society.

It is not a sane or sensible position to take.
 
Only in theory. When I was in insolvency practice only ONE applicant was able to save his home (as a bankrupt) from being sold off by his trustees in bankruptcy on the grounds his young son was severely handicapped, citing the Human Rights Act.

Insolvency pratitioners routinely throw young children - disabled or not - onto the streets with their families.

Most lawyers I know see the HR Act as a joke as courts are blind to it and any client who wants to plead "human rights" is seen as a crank.

Are you saying that UK courts feel free to defy ECHR rulings? That's interesting!
 
Most lawyers I know see the HR Act as a joke as courts are blind to it and any client who wants to plead "human rights" is seen as a crank.

Then you need to expand your network of lawyers to include some who are not fascists.
 
Not sure if we've discussed this yet, but did anyone notice that the New York Supreme Court has just rejected the use, in a criminal trial, of both LCN (high sensitivity) DNA analysis and a program used to statistically analyze DNA mixtures?

The court held that under Frye, LCN testing and the mixture-analysis tool are not generally accepted in the scientific community for use in criminal prosecutions.

It's a very informative opinion if anyone cares to read: http://www.scribd.com/doc/272010270/People-v-Collins. Lots of familiar names involved, but unfortunately for the prosecutor, he forgot to call Patrizia Stefanoni as a witness.

Notably, the court rejected this evidence:

In defendant Peaks’ case, the People obtained a DNA "mixtures from the bra of the victim of a sexual assault. At least one female and two males contributed DNA to the sample. Using standard DNA analysis, not "high sensitivity analysis, and using the FST software, an analyst determined that the sample was 19.6 times more probable if the sample originated from defendant Peaks, the victim, and an unknown, unrelated person than if it instead originated from the victim and two unknown, unrelated persons. One might reasonably expect that this evidence could be highly persuasive on any identity issue at trial.
 
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So just out of curiosity, Vixen. What evidence would convince you that Raf and Amanda were innocent?

As for me, it looks like it would be quite impossible to convince me they are innocent, given that there is evidence they are guilty.
 
As for me, it looks like it would be quite impossible to convince me they are innocent, given that there is evidence they are guilty.

What evidence do you believe places Amanda and/or Raf at the scene of and time at which the crime occurred?

Apart from speculation and refuted evidence, is there anything? Please be honest here.
 
As for me, it looks like it would be quite impossible to convince me they are innocent, given that there is evidence they are guilty.

Then you are a minority voice, of a very, very small minority. We've been over this 1000s of times, and there is no evidence that AK and/or RS are guilty. You have to reinvent discovery laws, as well as take as "fact" LCN DNA "evidence" from a lab not certified to analyze it.

Why this does not convince you, is anyone's guess.
 
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There is a case in the UK which there are issues with where it appears that the defendant does not have the right to take his case to the ECHR from what I understand.

He was ordered by a judge to take his child to Catholic church for Christmas
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...rs-father-to-take-his-children-to-church.html

As you can see from the DAILY TELEGRAPH article quoted, he can take it to ECHR, but England & Wales judiciary were not interested.

The ruling has been subjected to a series of legal challenges since it was imposed in 2009 but the church attendance requirement remains in force.
Steve went to the Court of Appeal on the grounds that the order was a breach of his human rights under Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which protects freedom of thought, conscience and religion.
However, a ruling by appeal judges and a later judicial review in the High Court did not support his application.
Steve also complained to the Judicial Conduct Investigations Office which, he said, upheld other aspects of his application but declined to give a decision on the Article 9 points, claiming they were a matter for the legal appeal process.
 
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