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Obamacare 5 years later. Crow, anyone?

We're not morons. I'd still prefer more medical progress rather than less, even if the US has to pay most of the cost.

Who said anything about "medical progress?" Oh! Greed! Right! I forgot that I already mentioned that greed is NOT a "motivating factor," particularly when the scientists making the drugs themselves are already making a decent living.

Yes, the US would save money if we moved towards socialized health care. But we would lose out on some medical progress, and the rest of the world would too. I would rather that the rest of the world moved towards a more free market health care system and shared more of the R&D burden. Not only would costs be lower in the US, but there would be even more medical progress than there is.

And tell me: Why in the HELL would the rest of the world be motivated to "help the USA" with the astronomical costs for drugs by adopting a system that causes the astronomical costs to begin with? Hate to tell a conservative this, but Europeans are not as insane as Americans.

Yes, and their strategy of price-fixing doesn't work out as badly for them as it would if the US joined them. Advocates of socialized medicine in those countries should be careful what they wish for.

Uuuummmm....WHAT!? That's like saying: "Just because the LHC works in Europe, doesn't mean one would work in the USA."

Listen. The USA has a larger population than the UK. Therefore, the American government, backed by the 300 millions population of the nation, would actually have MORE leverage with the drug companies than the UK does. Not less!

I'd like to see some numbers for this claim. Or at least something more quantitative. Megan McArdle claimed here that the US market accounted for 80-90% of drug company profits, and she backed it up with some analysis:

Right. The USA accounts for the "lion's share of the profits!" That does not mean the drug companies are not making excellent profits from other countries.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/uk-expansion-boosts-united-drug-profits-1.962275

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/uk-expansion-boosts-united-drug-profits-1.962275
 
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Never said it was I said this has little to do with paying up for drugs. Indeed most free market fans usually think that in the absence of market testing, buyers typically overpay (waste money) not underpay as you seem to be arguing. I contend that it is market forces in huge part that is driving the bargain non-US countries spend on drugs. The decision not to be first in line for new innovations isn't necessarily a market one. It is not without merit though IMO.

Well, non-market forces are playing an important role, since as everybody knows, governments are the ones negotiating with drug companies, and individual people in those countries aren't allowed to make their own purchase decisions with respect to the newest prescription drugs. Regardless, I'm not saying that these government decisions aren't wise given the lay of the land currently. I'm just saying that if the US does it too, we won't capture the same benefit.

Because then it isn't early any more.

Early just means that you adopt a new technology just as soon as its available. Sometimes there is really no advantage to waiting, in which case, we don't even call the early adopters early adopters. We just call them savvy customers. In any case, the usual advantages to being a late adopter don't often apply to drugs. Production capacity is rarely a limitation for the highest cost drugs. And patents usually have many years of life left at the time of introduction (which is a long time for patients suffering from a disorder). The US actually doesn't just pay a large premium for a new drug early on. Usually it pays a large premium for the whole life of the drug (while on patent), relative to other countries. I suspect that forcing other countries to wait has more to do with placating the US about paying premium prices and less to do with other countries capturing any production efficiencies or looming competition from generics or other brands that come with waiting.

Also it is virtually impossible to force another to be first. Thus the US pretty much always has the option to not be first if it ever considered the trade to be poor value. Similarly other countries could step up if they thought that was a good trade.

The US steps up, and other countries know this and take advantage of it. It's true in the drug market, and it's true in defense, and it's probably true in other areas as well. Nobody forced the US to defend Western Europe from the Soviets for 45 years either. I'm not looking for any gratitude, by the way. I'm just explaining the way I see the situation, which is this: The US economy is such an incredible powerhouse that we carry far more than our share of the burden for the developed world, and yet we still maintain pretty much the highest standard of living of any country. When doing comparisons of economic models, it's important to take this burden sharing (or lack of it) into account.
 
Who said anything about "medical progress?" Oh! Greed! Right! I forgot that I already mentioned that greed is NOT a "motivating factor," particularly when the scientists making the drugs themselves are already making a decent living.

You mentioned that greed is not the only motivating factor. Which, if you use a narrow definition of greed (i.e. only with respect to money), I agree with. However, it is silly to say that it is not a motivating factor at all. Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that scientists developing drugs can make a decent living because pharmaceutical companies are paying them. The money doesn't grow on trees you know. It comes from either drug sales or investors, or both.

And tell me: Why in the HELL would the rest of the world be motivated to "help the USA" with the astronomical costs for drugs by adopting a system that causes the astronomical costs to begin with? Hate to tell a conservative this, but Europeans are not as insane as Americans.

I don't want anybody to adopt our system. I want everybody to adopt a free market system, us included. Regardless, my main point is that the US cannot replicate the low cost system that, for example, the UK has. If we do it, we'll find that not only will our system be higher cost than theirs, but medical progress will have slowed.

Uuuummmm....WHAT!? That's like saying: "Just because the LHC works in Europe, doesn't mean one would work in the USA."

The LHC? Do you mean the Large Hadron Collider? You analogy is flawed to say the least. Yes, a machine, just like a drug, would work just as well in the US as in Europe. An economic system that relies on an implicit subsidy from a larger, richer country would not, however, work for that larger, richer country. I don't think that should be so hard to understand.

<snip>

Right. The USA accounts for the "lion's share of the profits!" That does not mean the drug companies are not making excellent profits from other countries.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/uk-expansion-boosts-united-drug-profits-1.962275


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/uk-expansion-boosts-united-drug-profits-1.962275

Why are you citing an article from 2003 that doesn't even have to do with an actual drugmaker? United Drug, now UDG Healthcare, is a drug marketer, distributor, and packager. It does not design or manufacture drugs. Your google-fu is weak.
 
You mentioned that greed is not the only motivating factor. Which, if you use a narrow definition of greed (i.e. only with respect to money), I agree with. However, it is silly to say that it is not a motivating factor at all. Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that scientists developing drugs can make a decent living because pharmaceutical companies are paying them. The money doesn't grow on trees you know. It comes from either drug sales or investors, or both.

Not quite. I said that greed CAN be a motivating factor, but is not a very important one. And in some cases, it can actually be a NEGATIVE; Greed can, and often does, corrupt. That's my biggest concern: Doctors being pressured by giant snake oil salesmen who know nothing about the science behind a drug, to sell and give drugs to patients who probably either do not need a particular drug, or could actually negatively affect a patient's health because a particular drug is inappropriate.

And of course money does not grow on trees! Hence: My suggestion of drug research being done a la NASA-style; nationally funded through tax-payer dollars. The scientists should be given decent compensation for their time and expertise, so they don't have to worry about their own financial obligations. They can just simply do what they are interested in: Research and experimentation. You know: That science stuff that SCIENTISTS are good at doing. Not something corporate executives know a whole lot about.


Why are you citing an article from 2003 that doesn't even have to do with an actual drugmaker? United Drug, now UDG Healthcare, is a drug marketer, distributor, and packager. It does not design or manufacture drugs. Your google-fu is weak.

In case you haven't noticed, the snake oil salesmen from that company did just fine in profits in the UK.



I don't want anybody to adopt our system. I want everybody to adopt a free market system, us included. Regardless, my main point is that the US cannot replicate the low cost system that, for example, the UK has. If we do it, we'll find that not only will our system be higher cost than theirs, but medical progress will have slowed.

WHAT@!? The US HAS a free-market system! And that['s the entire problem! And yes, it is a problem YOU want Europeans to adopt in order to somehow "help alleviate costs in the USA."

So many things wrong with this, it's hard to count. Starting with: "Why should Europeans care to help out the USA financially with the mess that we refuse to do anything about?" Next question: "Why should Europeans adopt a system that has caused irrationally expensive drug prices here in the US?"



The LHC? Do you mean the Large Hadron Collider? You analogy is flawed to say the least. Yes, a machine, just like a drug, would work just as well in the US as in Europe. An economic system that relies on an implicit subsidy from a larger, richer country would not, however, work for that larger, richer country. I don't think that should be so hard to understand.

I wasn't talking about a drug. I was talking about the health care system in place in Europe. And yes, if said healthcare system works elsewhere, there absolutely NO reason to suppose that it would NOT work here in the US! Much like if the Large Hadron Collider works in Europe, there is NO reason to suppose that such a machine would NOT work here in the US!

And no, health care is NOT an "economic system." Much as conservative Koch drones want to think it is. That is why health care is being destroyed in this country with insanely rising costs. People do not realize that health care is an essential aspect of human life. They think it is something that should be bought, and bartered, and profited for; much like regular goods like computers, cell phones, baseball trading cards. Sorry, but my health care should NOT be up for sale or up for profit. My health care is something that should be strictly between me and my doctor, and scientists to study if need be. Not for jackass sleazeballs who only know how to sell and rake in obnoxious amounts of money for themselves.


Why are you citing an article from 2003 that doesn't even have to do with an actual drugmaker? United Drug, now UDG Healthcare, is a drug marketer, distributor, and packager. It does not design or manufacture drugs. Your google-fu is weak.

In case you haven't noticed, the snake oil salesmen from that company did just fine in profits in the UK.
 
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Not quite. I said that greed CAN be a motivating factor, but is not a very important one. And in some cases, it can actually be a NEGATIVE; Greed can, and often does, corrupt. That's my biggest concern: Doctors being pressured by giant snake oil salesmen who know nothing about the science behind a drug, to sell and give drugs to patients who probably either do not need a particular drug, or could actually negatively affect a patient's health because a particular drug is inappropriate.

And of course money does not grow on trees! Hence: My suggestion of drug research being done a la NASA-style; nationally funded through tax-payer dollars. The scientists should be given decent compensation for their time and expertise, so they don't have to worry about their own financial obligations. They can just simply do what they are interested in: Research and experimentation. You know: That science stuff that SCIENTISTS are good at doing. Not something corporate executives know a whole lot about.

Your naivete is almost charming. Almost. It would be charming coming from a teenager.

In case you haven't noticed, the snake oil salesmen from that company did just fine in profits in the UK.

The company and the article are completely irrelevant. And you have no reason to call their employees "snake oil salesmen."

WHAT@!? The US HAS a free-market system! And that['s the entire problem! And yes, it is a problem YOU want Europeans to adopt in order to somehow "help alleviate costs in the USA."

The US does not have anything close to a free-market system in health care. It is heavily distorted by government regulation, government tax policy, and government health care programs (e.g. Medicare and Medicaid). When you consume health care services, even something as mundane and predictable as an annual checkup, you do not pay the cost of that directly. So why should you care about getting the best price, or only going when you need to?

So many things wrong with this, it's hard to count. Starting with: "Why should Europeans care to help out the USA financially with the mess that we refuse to do anything about?" Next question: "Why should Europeans adopt a system that has caused irrationally expensive drug prices here in the US?"

I'm not saying that Europeans should want to help out the US. I'm saying that they should understand that they're enjoying a free ride at the US's expense. At least if they want to reduce the probability that it will end.

<snip>

And no, health care is NOT an "economic system." Much as conservative Koch drones want to think it is. That is why health care is being destroyed in this country with insanely rising costs. People do not realize that health care is an essential aspect of human life.

Well, it isn't. It's not an essential part of life, like food and water and shelter. Human civilization survived and developed without meaningful health care for the last 15,000 years. Health care really only had a material impact on human longevity and well-being beginning about 150 years ago. In any case, health care consumption accounts for 16% of the national economy. Very little of that has to do with life and death stuff.

They think it is something that should be bought, and bartered, and profited for; much like regular goods like computers, cell phones, baseball trading cards.

Exactly. That's precisely what I think, and I think there will be a tremendous efficiency gain if we go that route.

Sorry, but my health care should NOT be up for sale or up for profit. My health care is something that should be strictly between me and my doctor, and scientists to study if need be. Not for jackass sleazeballs who only know how to sell and rake in obnoxious amounts of money for themselves.

Your doctor needs to be paid for his time and his effort. If he isn't paid, then he is a slave. If he is paid by some entity other than you, then your health is no longer strictly between you and your doctor.
 
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Early just means that you adopt a new technology just as soon as its available.
Disagreed early means before others, and is rather meaningless without "late". Late adopters are necessary for the early adopters to do both of (1) pay higher prices, which in turn, (2) capture better innovations. Without the tail of later adopters there is no differentially higher price (your "lucrative" market) and no attractor of differentially higher productivity or innovation. At least some of what you believe the US benefits from would vanish. Perhaps a lot of it. (Not clear how much of it there is in the first place though I accept, probably some). And positive externality from it wouldn't accrue to other places either of course, but you sent them to the moon so who cares.

I'm not looking for any gratitude, by the way. I'm just explaining the way I see the situation, which is this: The US economy is such an incredible powerhouse that we carry far more than our share of the burden for the developed world
It looks like you believe there is an injustice perpetrated by someone, not the US. As long as you do not, we are in agreement.

(If there is an injustice I would characterise it as the US wasting its own money. Some (EG Dambisa "How the west was lost" Moyo comes to mind) fear that this voluntary early-adoption and premium-price-paying / externality-generating . . . will be the US's undoing.)
 
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I wasn't talking about a drug. I was talking about the health care system in place in Europe. And yes, if said healthcare system works elsewhere, there absolutely NO reason to suppose that it would NOT work here in the US! Much like if the Large Hadron Collider works in Europe, there is NO reason to suppose that such a machine would NOT work here in the US!
Can't help being reminded of how you doggedly insisted until blue in the face how this magically does not and can not apply to internet traffic management regulation (net neutrality etc.). Which is a whole lot less complex and less regulated than health care. Yet with health insurance it suits you to enthusiastically claim that European systems can be copied across just like that. Seems extremely contradictory on your part.
 
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Can't help being reminded of how you doggedly insisted until blue in the face how this magically does not and can not apply to internet traffic management regulation (net neutrality). Which is a whole lot less complex and less regulated than health care. Yet with health insurance it suits you to enthusiastically claim that European systems can be copied across just like that. Seems extremely contradictory on your part.

:D You see sunmaster's posts? How he DOGGEDLY wants a free-market approach to healthcare? I am not going to respond to his last post, as it's clear he's a pure capitalist who has not learned from history. That's the ******** we have to deal with here in the USA. Of course, the UK has it's people too. But not nearly as large of a voting bloc% as the USA.

The thing is with healthcare compared to NN, is that healthcare is something that virtually every single human being in existence actually NEEDS. It is NOT a good that is to be traded back and forth on a completely unregulated, capitalist system, like a bunch of baseball trading cards. Do you agree with this?

The difference between the NN thread and this one, is that more people would be willing to have government interference; actually get out and vote for it, when it comes to their healthcare; than they would be with seeing even something as simple as NN passed.

The internet, particularly the physical infrastructure; the lines and poles and whatnot, is actual property of the cable companies. It is really hard, in the USA, to just up and break companies like that, especially if they have signed contracts with local areas. (Hell, we fought a 4 year-long war, with over 600,000 dead because of "property rights!") It took decades for anti-trust laws to actually be passed, and used against monopolies, as opposed to labor organizations! It took the better part of a decade to break Microsoft and Bell in the 90s.

Your healthcare is NOT a physical good that anyone owns. And healthcare, most people would agree, is something that is more urgent to reform. Obama had to pass the ACA in it's current form, because of the hostile do-nothing Congress that dumbasses all across America put in place (watching Fox News!)

So no, currently, with this administration and Congress, it is not possible pass a Euro-style healthcare OR internet policies. Like I said in that other thread, I agree with your premise of how the UK does the internet, just like how I agree with single-payor. Just that the single-payor has an actual movement behind it. A UK-style internet structure does not. There is a distinct possibility single-payor COULD happen in the next administration, especially if Bernie Sanders can get into the White House, and people get off their lazy asses and vote for their own interests for a progressive Congress, rather than for the interests of Rupert Murdoch and the Koch Brothers.
 
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The difference between the NN thread and this one, [ . . . ]
The difference between the threads is that in the former your position clings for dear life to the belief that something can't be copied from Europe to the US, but in the latter you embrace it as a piece of cake.

Just sayin'.

(Didn't mean to suggest you embrace cake or anything.)
 
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Oh man, I was not going to respond to this post, but here goes.

Your naivete is almost charming. Almost. It would be charming coming from a teenager.

It's not "teenage naivete." I posted a link to Forbes, showing, not only how unimportant "greed" is to get things done properly, but how it can actually negatively CORRUPT! Greed, as a driving force, is only purported by Fox News viewers, because that is the Rupert Murdoch/Donald Trump/Koch Brother's philosophy.

I am telling you, most people are happy if they just simply make a decent living, and they are able to do so under their own merits of hard work and/or intelligence.



The company and the article are completely irrelevant. And you have no reason to call their employees "snake oil salesmen."

Yes, I do. And that wasn't even the point to begin with. I was showing how the selling of drugs is still profitable in a UK-style single-payor system.The USA does NOT need to be the world's "drug subsidizer." Drug companies would do just fine, albeit with slightly reduced profits, if the USA, as a nation, can get the 300,000,000 people to collectively negotiate prices.

A NASA-style funding for drugs would be ideal. I personally do not give a **** about the drug companies and their profit, and I have no reason to give a **** about that.



The US does not have anything close to a free-market system in health care. It is heavily distorted by government regulation, government tax policy, and government health care programs (e.g. Medicare and Medicaid). When you consume health care services, even something as mundane and predictable as an annual checkup, you do not pay the cost of that directly. So why should you care about getting the best price, or only going when you need to?

Right, because private insurance companies do not exist. :rolleyes: A "free-market" is not the same as a "capitalist market."

I am arguing in favor of a socialist system for healthcare, as my health is not a good for someone else to profit off of. My personal rights to have my health care be purely between me and my doctor, should trump a corporate sleazeballs rights to profit off of it, or god-forbid, make decisions on whether this operation I can have as opposed to that, because it is cheaper. No, the decision of which operation, or whether I should have an operation, should be based on what is best for MY BODY! Not based on someone else's wallet!



I'm not saying that Europeans should want to help out the US. I'm saying that they should understand that they're enjoying a free ride at the US's expense. At least if they want to reduce the probability that it will end.

I don't think Europeans care whether the US is actually "helping them out" or not. In fact, I don't think that is even true, as drug companies can still profit in European nations. And they can still profit in the US if single-payor were passed. It's that the profits will not be as steep, because like the European nations, we would be collectively bargaining for better prices.



Well, it isn't. It's not an essential part of life, like food and water and shelter. Human civilization survived and developed without meaningful health care for the last 15,000 years. Health care really only had a material impact on human longevity and well-being beginning about 150 years ago. In any case, health care consumption accounts for 16% of the national economy. Very little of that has to do with life and death stuff.

People also survived without superhighways. In a modern economy, where you need a healthy workforce, health care IS an essential commodity. Just like road-building. In any case, women frequently died in childbirth in centuries and millennia past. It is not quite so common any more. So tell this to a spouse whose wife has a complicated, potentially deadly, pregnancy but whose life was saved because of modern healthcare. Or tell that to a breast cancer survivor. Or tell that to someone with severe asthma.



Exactly. That's precisely what I think, and I think there will be a tremendous efficiency gain if we go that route.

You are exactly wrong, and why you're disgusting Tea Party notions will lose in '16. People are disgusted with it. Human health and human bodies are NOT meant to be traded and bartered for like a bunch of baseball cards. A corporate executive from NYC does NOT have the right to interfere with health-related decisions between me and my doctor. In fact, the concept of confidentiality goes way back to Hippocrates. And in the USA, we have patient's rights. Corporate executive do NOT have the right to go poking around in our health files, nor even to ask about our health care, yet we have given up those rights just so they can make enormous profits.

**** em.



Your doctor needs to be paid for his time and his effort. If he isn't paid, then he is a slave. If he is paid by some entity other than you, then your health is no longer strictly between you and your doctor.

Of course he needs to be paid for his time and effort.

Under the old system, before the ACA, insurance companies made decisions on whether something was covered or not, based on "pre-exisiting conditions." Not only is this a DIRECT interference of important decision-making, but outright violates patient confidentiality!

If the government were to fund healthcare under a single-payor system, no questions need be asked in the decision-making process between you and your doctor. The doctor just simply says: "This is operation, or that drug is necessary," and the money is provided. Sure, a government agent somewhere to see what operation is necessary for what name. But said government agent cannot make any decisions to deny or "allow" the operation to proceed. It's just simply for record-keeping purposes.
 
Disagreed early means before others, and is rather meaningless without "late". Late adopters are necessary for the early adopters to do both of (1) pay higher prices, which in turn, (2) capture better innovations. Without the tail of later adopters there is no differentially higher price (your "lucrative" market) and no attractor of differentially higher productivity or innovation. At least some of what you believe the US benefits from would vanish. Perhaps a lot of it. (Not clear how much of it there is in the first place though I accept, probably some). And positive externality from it wouldn't accrue to other places either of course, but you sent them to the moon so who cares.

I really don't understand this point about early adopters benefiting from the willingness of others to be late adopters. I can see that happening in the case of new technologies which are production limited (e.g. the Apple watch), but how does it work in the case of new drugs? How do Americans benefit from the willingness of the EU to wait before approving, let alone buying, a breakthrough cancer drug like Gleevec/Glivec? And as of two years ago, more than 12 years after its development, the cost of Gleevec was $92,000 per year per patient in the US and about $32,500 per year per patient in the UK. The cost differential today can't have anything to do with the speed of adoption. It almost certainly has to do with the willingness of the UK to deny the drug to some of its citizens.

It looks like you believe there is an injustice perpetrated by someone, not the US. As long as you do not, we are in agreement.

I only care about the injustice of people using the cost differential between the US and Europe as a specious argument in favor of the European system.
 
As opposed to posting a link to a glorified Op-Ed and then wondering why nobody considers it reasonable grounds for an information debate?

What I consider quite bemusing is that, if one believes in free market economics, the UK and other countries have done absolutely nothing wrong - they have used their considerable collective bargaining power to get a price that suits them, bearing in mind how they calculate their cost/benefit ceilings.

Moreover if you belive that the UK and other western states are effectively sponging off the US, i.e. the higher prices in the US are allowing international drug firms to lower their price below a profitable level in these other nations (and you have failed to show this) then surely the US adopting reforms would be a sensible way of leveling the playing field!
 
I don't know what the volatility of typical health care costs is. Maybe lower than the vol of capital market returns (which is usually something around 10% but of course volatility is itself volatile). But health care costs are, I believe, quite highly positively correlated.

I don't think you understand what volatility is, since volatility is usually matched to a particular time period your point makes no sense.

What are health care costs "highly positively correlated" to? It doesn't sound like you have a clue what correlation is either.
 
As opposed to posting a link to a glorified Op-Ed and then wondering why nobody considers it reasonable grounds for an information debate?

What I consider quite bemusing is that, if one believes in free market economics, the UK and other countries have done absolutely nothing wrong - they have used their considerable collective bargaining power to get a price that suits them, bearing in mind how they calculate their cost/benefit ceilings.

Moreover if you belive that the UK and other western states are effectively sponging off the US, i.e. the higher prices in the US are allowing international drug firms to lower their price below a profitable level in these other nations (and you have failed to show this) then surely the US adopting reforms would be a sensible way of leveling the playing field!

Obamacare is anti-free market because it regulates what private companies can sell. A private company will tailor their health care to meet the needs of its customers.

Hence an insurer is not going to force a young man to purchase pre-natal care or care related to breast cancer.

They will charge different rates by age and risk class, again Obamacare restricts companies on what they can charge and what risk classes they can use to generate ratings.

Government is mandating coverage and prices, this will never work, prices will spiral out of control.
 
Obamacare is anti-free market because it regulates what private companies can sell. A private company will tailor their health care to meet the needs of its customers.



Hence an insurer is not going to force a young man to purchase pre-natal care or care related to breast cancer.



They will charge different rates by age and risk class, again Obamacare restricts companies on what they can charge and what risk classes they can use to generate ratings.



Government is mandating coverage and prices, this will never work, prices will spiral out of control.


Alternately, government will mandate coverage and prices by moving to one of several taxpayer funded systems like the vast majority of successful western democracies. After a few years of whining and complaining, you'll realize that you're getting equal or superior levels of healthcare than you were before and will not miss the current, previous, or illusionary "free market" options any more than you'll miss the "levee en masse" for national defence.
 
Alternately, government will mandate coverage and prices by moving to one of several taxpayer funded systems like the vast majority of successful western democracies. After a few years of whining and complaining, you'll realize that you're getting equal or superior levels of healthcare than you were before and will not miss the current, previous, or illusionary "free market" options any more than you'll miss the "levee en masse" for national defence.

And as they mandate coverage they escalate the prices required to fund their ponzi scheme. As they subsidize poor people's health care they force healthy insured's out of the market. This causes the prices to keep increasing.

Western democracies aren't sucesses they are welfare states who spend 40% of their GDP on government programs. Forgive me but I don't want my money wasted in your ponzi scheme that is going down the tubes.

Give people a choice, you haven't done that. People will opt out and your utopia will crumble, just like those western democracies.

Good luck to you
 
And as they mandate coverage they escalate the prices required to fund their ponzi scheme. As they subsidize poor people's health care they force healthy insured's out of the market. This causes the prices to keep increasing.

Western democracies aren't sucesses they are welfare states who spend 40% of their GDP on government programs. Forgive me but I don't want my money wasted in your ponzi scheme that is going down the tubes.

Give people a choice, you haven't done that. People will opt out and your utopia will crumble, just like those western democracies.

Good luck to you

"Ponzi Scheme": I don't think it means what you think it means. :rolleyes:
 
Give people a choice, you haven't done that. People will opt out and your utopia will crumble, just like those western democracies.



Good luck to you


We call choices "elections". The people express their will, and choose politicians to bring about the policies that they think are best for themselves and the country as a whole.

Odd thing though, even when big free market promoters get elected, not one of them ever eliminates those state run healthcare plans.
 
As opposed to posting a link to a glorified Op-Ed and then wondering why nobody considers it reasonable grounds for an information debate?

Are you referring to the Rand study? That's a research paper, not a glorified op-ed. If you have a problem with their methodology, there's a link to the full research paper in the summary I linked to. If you are skeptical of their model and the final results, that's fine. But the argument is plausible, and I've provided links to papers where the positive correlation between drug industry revenues and investment in R&D is studied.

What I consider quite bemusing is that, if one believes in free market economics, the UK and other countries have done absolutely nothing wrong - they have used their considerable collective bargaining power to get a price that suits them, bearing in mind how they calculate their cost/benefit ceilings.

No, it is not free market economics for an entire country to negotiate a single price. How would you distinguish that from Communism, where a central bureaucracy sets prices? Free markets refers to delegating purchase decisions to as low a level as possible, so that the prices are as close to weighted averages of individual preferences as possible. In a free market, there would be continuous supply and demand curves. If the price of Gleevac were $40,000 per person per year, there would still be significant demand for it in the UK. The way it is now, the government forces demand to be zero.

Moreover if you belive that the UK and other western states are effectively sponging off the US, i.e. the higher prices in the US are allowing international drug firms to lower their price below a profitable level in these other nations (and you have failed to show this) then surely the US adopting reforms would be a sensible way of leveling the playing field!

No, the effect of the US paying high prices is not so much that other countries can pay low prices. It is that the effect of the US paying high prices incentivizes drug companies to invest in more R&D. If the US started paying artificially lower prices, investment in R&D would diminish, and the whole world would suffer, Americans included.
 

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