Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

Vixen,
so I am supposing that the other guys who left their DNA on Meredith's bra clasp pressed down firmly or they were sweating, is this your opinion?

There weren't any "other guys". It was just a few random allelles, not even a DNA profile, like Raff's.

 

[Ken Dine]

Such nonsense Mach and you know it. The EDF files were requested by the defense and CV. Hellman told Stefanoni to produce the EDFs and she simply never did. Whereas in the US her ignoring the judge would have resulted in a contempt citation, the judges in Italy simply did not exert their authority. If they have any?

It's false.

Tell me where he [HELLMANN] did?

Easily done – here’s their respective correspondence:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/documentazione-periti-aprile-2011-1.pdf


BTW, you did get the memo that on March 27th 'YOUR' Italian Supreme Ct found Amanda & Raffaele to be 100% INNOCENT, right?

Why are you so insistent on making a fool of yourself at this late date?

 

[Machiavelli]

No sane person understands YOUR issues!

You obviously are largely ignorant of the law, and that would include Italian law since Vecchiotti had testified that under Italian law (as well as International Law), that the EDF's should have been turned over to the defense (see hi-lighted testimony):

(...)

The funny thing is that Vecchiotti testified (on May 21.) almost the opposite of that, that is, she testified that she didn't request the electronic raw data to Stefanoni, she explicitly stated before judge Hellmann that the raw data are something unnecessary.
She also praised Stefanoni because she was completely cooperative, and said more than once that she fulfilled all the requests and gave her "even more" things than she requested.

I understand that what I am saying about Vecchiotti's statements seems strange, but there's a reason why I regard her as a fraud.

 

[Vixen]

Why is this an issue for debate? Wouldn't Stefanoni have been required to state her qualifications in open court at the start of her testimony?

I have served on two juries in the US. When expert witnesses were called they spent about five minutes summarizing their qualifications including their schooling, special classes, memberships in professional organizations, etc. Doesn't this happen in an Italian court? If it did happen what did Stefanoni say about her education?

Stefanoni made a long and detailed description of DNA testing in her lab.

Why would she discuss her education?

Qualifications are relevant at entry level. After that, it is a level playing field based on your performance and capability.

I know guys who have dreadful education records (and also there's Sir Cohen, founder of Tesco, the Beatles, Richard Branson) and yet are extraordinarily successful. It would be utterly pointless to ask Macca how many O Levels he has (2) as it is completely irrelevant.

So what would Steff's PhD tell you? Next you would be whinning you don't like the title of her dissertation.

 

[Vixen]

So the courts (Massei, Nencini, Chieffi) trusted the evidence presented by Stefanoni even though her work was found to be inaccurate by the court ordered independent study of Vecchiotti and Conti, found to be inaccurate by the defenses' experts, and she refused to release the EDFs to both the court and the defense.

Sort of like 'trust me' . . .

For the record, Hellmann's report, and in particular Vecchiotti and Conti's contribution, was expunged, excoriated, extinguished, expired, is no more. It is as dead as a dodo.

 

[Vixen]

Could you please tell us why you think Vecchiotti is a fraud, how she lied, and why she is wrong?

I gather the alternative, is that if Vecchiotti is not these things, then Stefanoni is guilty of the same?

I can help you. They manipulated the results (unethical behaviour), for example, wilfully ignoring sample 36(i) without notifying the court of their independent decision.

 

[Vixen]

Have Nick VDL and Lisa published anything on there? Because they're very high up on Amazon rankings too.

Stefanoni is a forensic biochemist DNA expert.

Nick and Lisa are writers.

Clear now?

 

[bagels]

For the record, Hellmann's report, and in particular Vecchiotti and Conti's contribution, was expunged, excoriated, extinguished, expired, is no more. It is as dead as a dodo.

much like amanda's prosecution

 

[carbonjam72]

Stefanoni is a forensic biochemist DNA expert.

Nick and Lisa are writers.

Clear now?

Don't they both write fiction? What's the diff?

 

[Kauffer]

Stefanoni made a long and detailed description of DNA testing in her lab.

Why would she discuss her education?

Qualifications are relevant at entry level. After that, it is a level playing field based on your performance and capability.

I know guys who have dreadful education records (and also there's Sir Cohen, founder of Tesco, the Beatles, Richard Branson) and yet are extraordinarily successful. It would be utterly pointless to ask Macca how many O Levels he has (2) as it is completely irrelevant.

So what would Steff's PhD tell you? Next you would be whinning you don't like the title of her dissertation.

Rot! There is a wholly legitimate interest in discovering the qualifications, training and skills of an expert witness. How on earth are courts supposed to evaluate such evidence they bring unless they are first aware of what they are qualified to speak about. And we know that she did not follow proper procedures and was not rigorous in the evidence she gave.

Paul McCartney is a guitarist, pianist and singer - a musician whose skills are practical and performance related in a manner which permits aural evaluation alone. This is not the case with Stefanoni, who appears to have a biology degree and once said she wished she had more training in forensic science.

In saying that, I expect Macca might have done a better job of changing his gloves than Steffy did.

 

[zotz]

Stefanoni made a long and detailed description of DNA testing in her lab.

Why would she discuss her education?

Qualifications are relevant at entry level. After that, it is a level playing field based on your performance and capability.

I know guys who have dreadful education records (and also there's Sir Cohen, founder of Tesco, the Beatles, Richard Branson) and yet are extraordinarily successful. It would be utterly pointless to ask Macca how many O Levels he has (2) as it is completely irrelevant.

So what would Steff's PhD tell you? Next you would be whinning you don't like the title of her dissertation.

What could be the justification for not giving her qualifications? Do you seriously believe it is not relevant? It is a nonsensical argument.

 

[Vixen]

Such nonsense Mach and you know it. The EDF files were requested by the defense and CV. Hellman told Stefanoni to produce the EDFs and she simply never did. Whereas in the US her ignoring the judge would have resulted in a contempt citation, the judges in Italy simply did not exert their authority. If they have any?

Hellmann was either showing perversity or really doesn't have a clue how criminal law evidence works.

 

[Kauffer]

For the record, Hellmann's report, and in particular Vecchiotti and Conti's contribution, was expunged, excoriated, extinguished, expired, is no more. It is as dead as a dodo.

Actually not. The callunia conviction emerged from it, where Hellmann makes very interesting observations about procedural irregularities, also known as violations of human rights, upon which the ECHR will be able to base part of its judgement in the case before it. You know right? The bit about where he says Amanda should have had a lawyer, is particularly strong. Not only did the Chueffi court not contradict him on that, I believe you'll find that it confirmed that Amanda was in fact a suspect all along.

 

[Planigale]

You are wrong.
Stefanoni is a member of ENFSI.

Stefanoni is precisely a directive of Central Anticrime Directorate of Italian National Police, Forensic Science Police Service (DAC-SPS), Rome, Italy.



http://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/966-Investigations/#centrale_anticrimine

Stefanoni directs the biology section of Forensic Police Service, a division of DAC, Rome.
Her laboratory is located in Via Tuscolana 1548, Rome.

Mach you are making yourself look foolish. The members of ENFSI are institutions not individuals. This is a bit like saying that Italy is a member of the UN. Stef is an Italian state employee, therefore Stef is a member of the UN. Stef is as much a member of ENFSI as any other employee of Central Anticrime Directorate of Italian National Police, Forensic Science Police Service (DAC-SPS). That is to say the jnitor or secretary is as much a member of ENFSI as stef is. If you claim she is a member by vurtue of her employer the this says nothing about her as an individual. Claiming she is a member vs. Conti says nothing.

 

[Kauffer]

Stefanoni is a forensic biochemist DNA expert.
Nick and Lisa are writers.

Clear now?

Prove it!

 

[Vixen]

There are several plausible ways in which Meredith's DNA and the DNA of 4 others including Raffaele could have been deposited on the hooks of Metedith's bra clasp.

1. The DNA was on Meredith's fingertips and she spread it to the hook as she fastened and unfastened her bra several times over several days of wearing it.
2. Some of the males' DNA was spread to her bra hook by Meredith over several days and the DNA of several additional males was deposited on the hooks by Stefanini directly when she wiped her dirty/contaminated glove finger on the hook, as seen on video.
3. A combination of 1 or 2, above, combined with DNA contamination when the clasp was moved along the floor of the bedroom over six weeks before collection.
4. Any of the above plus contamination in Stefanoni's lab equipment.

Or, Raff removed Mez' bra after her death and that is why his DNA is all over the bra clasp.

 

[zotz]

As for the 1st paragraph, I'm afraid I am not following you.

The list that I have made portrays a summary picture of the current status of what the trial findigns are and judicial truth.

From a legal point of view, this legally constitutes a framework, a basis on which any possible action may occur.
The legal framework also is considered as a sort of acknowledgment about findings and proceedings. It may be seen as something that expresses and points to a historical truth.

The second calunnia trial is absolutely not a waste of time: it will come to a conclusion, and will bring to a judicial truth. There are some probabilities that time is not enough to sort penalty effect (albeit the expiration time is more than 11 years on aggravated calunnia of this kind) but even without prison penalty there is a finding and acknowledgement of judicial truth.

As for Guede's trial, it shall be clear that in the Italian system trials are not entirely independant from each other. A conflict of res iudicata is normally regarded as unacceptable, meaning that truths established are important and have some consequence universally, not just within a limited boundary areound the parties of a trial.
Guede's trial leads to a judicial truth which everyone can hold as evidence, even in legal venues. (it is not true that Knox defence was not represented in that trial btw, but that's not the point).The fact that Guede was not holding the murder weapon is thus a definitive finding, something that allows to people say and write things and may allow lawyers and judiciaries many kind of things.

This "legal truth" can be reversed by the Supreme Court, obviously because that is what, in effect, happened. So if Guede's trial decisions are binding on Knox and Sollecito, perhaps the ISC's acquittal will alter Guede's final conviction.

 

[Vixen]

So if an expert isn't an expert, but rather, a charlatan, it's not ok to mention that?

Wow, in your parallel universe, Vecchiotti and Conti should be given the Nobel prize and beatified by the Pope, whereas "every cop is a criminal", Stefanoni the worst, for finding scientific DNA evidence against St Amanda and His Holiness Raff.

 

[Kauffer]

Or, Raff removed Mez' bra after her death and that is why his DNA is all over the bra clasp.

Where are his shoe prints in blood in her room then from when he left it?
How could he have removed her bra without leaving traces on the material?

Just for your immediate education I can inform you that Kercher's bra was not removed by unfastening the clasp. It was torn off. Nobody took her bra off by the clasp. Guede's DNA was found on the bra and that should be a really strong clue for you to work out who removed the bra. As for when it was removed, you might like to consider the small matter of the aspirated blood. But I will leave you to discover for yourself where that was found and what it means.

 

[Kauffer]

Wow, in your parallel universe, Vecchiotti and Conti should be given the Nobel prize and beatified by the Pope, whereas "every cop is a criminal", Stefanoni the worst, for finding scientific DNA evidence against St Amanda and His Holiness Raff.

She found Kercher's DNA on the knife and bra clasp you mean, right? Really? So, as according to international standards it was possible to repeat her tests and, as it were, find it again?