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Obamacare 5 years later. Crow, anyone?

People are motivated by all kinds of things, although greed does not only apply to money. Somebody can be greedy for recognition or love or new experiences or political power. In a capitalist society, though, money is the common denominator - and it is often the thing which puts many of the other goals within reach. In any case, investors don't care about the other stuff. They care only about profit. If they didn't, they would be called philanthropists.

I don't think the word "greed" means what you think it means. In any case, we WERE talking about money in this thread. Specifically, the billions of dollars spent on medical research. So don't try and obfuscate and confuse this discussion. Stay focused here, bud!



The entrepreneurs are motivated by a lot more than just money, but their financial backers aren't.

And therein, lies the problem!

Nor are their suppliers and vendors, nor most of their employees. Even the most idealistic, hard-working person still needs to eat and put a roof over his head.

Suppliers and vendors have nothing to do with it. All they do, is sell the drugs once they are produced. We are, afterall, talking about the SCIENCE and the RESEARCH of producing the drugs. And of course they still need to eat and put a roof over their head. Doesn't mean that engorging R&D departments with funds, and cracking the whip because of "investors!" is of any help whatsoever.




I wonder if you actually prefer capitalism to communism, and if you do, are you able actually to articulate some reasons why?

Why a choice between two failed extremes? No, I prefer a certain amount of SOCIALISM. (And before you start, I suggest you look up and research what that term means. There are different types of socialism, and it ranges across the spectrum between "capitalism" and "communism.")

When it comes to life-saving technologies, I prefer a national organization (not unlike NASA), doing the research and development. An organization that doesn't have to pander to investors and managers who know absolutely NOTHING about the drugs under development; trying to get them out before they are completely finished, or pushing them onto unsuspecting patients who may not even need a particular drug.

It's funny you know. I constantly see on television (not that I watch much TV,) one commercial selling a particular drug; and these commercials are always the same style: Someone or a group of someone's, doing "fun" stuff outside, and always very happy and very healthy. Followed by a commercial for a lawyer suing for that particular drug; and also always of the same style; dark and depressing, with a giant list of things that drug did to people (and always trying to get dead people to call that lawyer group! :D) ! :eye-poppi
 
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By the way, I was hoping to get some feedback on the evidence I posted which shows that Canadians and Europeans are actually benefiting enormously from the drug development that Americans pay for. It is certainly ironic that these ungrateful freeloaders should turn around and castigate us for having high prices for medical care when those high prices are subsidizing their low prices.

Where are those people who wanted to see this evidence: 3point14? RandFan? Nihilianth? anduin? Bueller?

Why does that even matter anyway? Their NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS get to negotiate. That's a negotiation of an entire nation collectively.

Here in the US, you have insurance groups, competing with one another, that negotiate individually for drugs and services. Therefore, drug prices and services will necessarily be higher. But still somewhat lower than retail.

If an individual person had to do it, they would pay the entire full retail price.

In any case, German companies, as pointed out previously, do a lot of R&D on drugs. German companies do not charge anywhere near the price that American companies do. And it isn't because we are "subsidizing" for it! The R&D in a German company, is done in Germany.
 
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Suppliers and vendors have nothing to do with it. All they do, is sell the drugs once they are produced. We are, afterall, talking about the SCIENCE and the RESEARCH of producing the drugs. And of course they still need to eat and put a roof over their head. Doesn't mean that engorging R&D departments with funds, and cracking the whip because of "investors!" is of any help whatsoever.

The suppliers and vendors are the ones who provide the machines and materials with which the researchers do their research. Do you think researchers build the scientific instruments from scratch that they use to do their research? Do they build their labs from scratch and run the plumbing and electrical wiring themselves? Have you ever even set foot in a research lab? There's a ton of infrastructure that a modern lab needs, which the researchers can't and won't build themselves. I used to be a physicist and knew people who had been physicists in the old Soviet Union. They had to deal with the problem of lack of infrastructure because of the nightmare of inefficiency that Soviet communism was. Sometimes they would perform miracles with what they had, but their research was usually fatally hampered. That's why they stuck mainly to working on theory.

Why a choice between two failed extremes? No, I prefer a certain amount of SOCIALISM. (And before you start, I suggest you look up and research what that term means. There are different types of socialism, and it ranges across the spectrum between "capitalism" and "communism.")

You have dodged the question. Why doesn't communism work?

When it comes to life-saving technologies, I prefer a national organization (not unlike NASA), doing the research and development. An organization that doesn't have to pander to investors and managers who know absolutely NOTHING about the drugs under development; trying to get them out before they are completely finished, or pushing them onto unsuspecting patients who may not even need a particular drug.

So when it comes to life-saving technologies or space exploration, you prefer the communist model. Do you prefer that with respect to consumer electronics or automobiles? If not, why not?

It's funny you know. I constantly see on television (not that I watch much TV,) one commercial selling a particular drug; and these commercials are always the same style: Someone or a group of someone's, doing "fun" stuff outside, and always very happy and very healthy. Followed by a commercial for a lawyer suing for that particular drug; and also always of the same style; dark and depressing, with a giant list of things that drug did to people (and always trying to get dead people to call that lawyer group! :D) ! :eye-poppi

The personal injury bar are bloodsucking parasites on the ass of society for the most part. But even they play a role in the capitalist ecosystem. Regardless, marketing is a very important part of the product development cycle in a capitalist society. Without marketing, it would take much longer for consumers to learn about and use a new product, and competition and innovation wouldn't be as fierce as it is.
 
Why does that even matter anyway? Their NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS get to negotiate. That's a negotiation of an entire nation collectively.

Why does it matter? It matters because if the US institutes government price controls, the whole world will suffer from decreased progress in medicine. There is a tragedy of the commons problem here, and most people don't understand it.

Here in the US, you have insurance groups, competing with one another, that negotiate individually for drugs and services. Therefore, drug prices and services will necessarily be higher. But still somewhat lower than retail.

If an individual person had to do it, they would pay the entire full retail price.

In any case, German companies, as pointed out previously, do a lot of R&D on drugs. German companies do not charge anywhere near the price that American companies do. And it isn't because we are "subsidizing" for it! The R&D in a German company, is done in Germany.

You really think a German company will charge less in the US for a drug than an American company will? I kind of doubt that (to say the least). German companies try to maximize their profits just like American companies do, and that means charging what the market will bear, as long as they're allowed to.
 
Do you use a public food pantry or something similar? Many communities have operations sponsored by churches and other charitable organizations to give away food, often out-of-date but still ok stuff gathered from restaurants and supermarkets, and often canned or packaged goods that don't need to be refrigerated. Some places are open to all, others require some kind of proof of need, but if you're already getting food stamps you would certainly qualify.
http://www.foodpantries.org/ci/oh-cincinnati
http://freestorefoodbank.org/get-help/agency-relations/

I do. Of course, I can only reach one food pantry, due to lack of transportation. I can walk a pretty good distance, but not carrying groceries.

The local food pantry gives you about a week's worth of food. You can get that once per month.

Many of the other pantries in town (mine included) serve only residents of particular neighborhoods. Most offer a few days' food, once per month. IF I had transportation, I could PROBABLY manage to get three week's food, tops, once per month, by going to different food banks that service my area. Granted, some of that food is spoilt (not merely out-of-date), but most of it is perfectly good, healthy food.

Of course, food is subject to availability; I have seen food pantries close their doors with a LONG line of clients waiting to get food, because they are out. They require identification and verification of address (not at all unreasonable), and usually don't even ask why you need the food (with the exception of Freestore Foodbank, I am told, who require you to visit their caseworker office and sit through an interview before they authorize you to get food).

Then, of course, food bank hours are sometimes difficult to manage. My local one is open four days a week, from 10 am to 1pm. IF you happen to work during those hours, too bad. There's no recourse - take a day off from work (and lose a day's pay), or be hungry. Most of the food banks have limited hours - after all, they're being run by volunteers, not employees (in most cases).

Still, food pantries do help a small bit, and I recommend them to anyone short on vittles.
 
By the way, I was hoping to get some feedback on the evidence I posted which shows that Canadians and Europeans are actually benefiting enormously from the drug development that Americans pay for. It is certainly ironic that these ungrateful freeloaders should turn around and castigate us for having high prices for medical care when those high prices are subsidizing their low prices.

Where are those people who wanted to see this evidence: 3point14? RandFan? Nihilianth? anduin? Bueller?

I am confused: Are you proud of the fact that the US government gave up its right to negotiate with drug companies and now drug companies are stealing money from you through taxes? Or are you proud that we have such a complex system of insurance companies that the insurance company can just pass the cost on to the consumer without really worrying about drug costs, so long as they are all be screwed at the same rate? Or do you just want others to give up on their superior systems to accept a similar fate?
 
:( If I do, then I've failed to live up to my own expectations.

Why? It's a utility maximizing strategy, not just for you personally, but for everyone. When you reward civility and punish incivility, you help to make the world more civil.

I would genuinely appreciate if you can give me an idea of where I've done this?

You've gone at it pretty hard with EG3000.
 
So anyway... Anybody got anything to say about ACA?

I hope it is irrelevant by the time my kids are having kids. Single payor seems to be the way of the future, I'm just wondering how much money we will piss down the drain on the way there.
 
I am confused: Are you proud of the fact that the US government gave up its right to negotiate with drug companies and now drug companies are stealing money from you through taxes? Or are you proud that we have such a complex system of insurance companies that the insurance company can just pass the cost on to the consumer without really worrying about drug costs, so long as they are all be screwed at the same rate? Or do you just want others to give up on their superior systems to accept a similar fate?

I can see by the tendentious way in which you phrased those questions, you are not really interested in learning the answers. For the benefit of lurkers, however, I will say that I am happy that the US government does not directly control drug prices. I am unhappy that the US government effectively controls the prices of many other medical procedures and services through Medicare and Medicaid. I think our system of having 3rd party payers for virtually all health care causes demand, and therefore prices, to be artificially high. I would like to see a more market-based approach where people pay for most of their health care directly, and only have catastrophic insurance plans. Poor people would be given money in health savings accounts which are partially reimbursable to the government for what they don't use each year (just so there is an incentive to see a doctor once in a while).

As for those countries which have socialized medicine, I obviously would prefer if they had free market based systems as well. I think the whole world would benefit, and Americans would benefit as well, since there would be a pricing system reflecting natural supply and demand, leading to a more efficient allocation of medical resources (including, especially, R&D).
 
Why? It's a utility maximizing strategy, not just for you personally, but for everyone. When you reward civility and punish incivility, you help to make the world more civil.

You've gone at it pretty hard with EG3000.

You're correct, I have occasionally been snippy with EG.

I don't see it as a utility maximizing strategy. That strategy, tit for tat, only works in a score-keeping environment. For me, the goal isn't score-keeping, my goal is to minimize discontent on my part. Sniping at someone who annoys me is likely to provide very short term satisfaction on my part... true. But my observations lead me to believe that it results in an increased likelihood of unpleasant interactions in the future. My retaliation results in yet more retaliation - it doesn't result in a lessening of unpleasantness, but an increase.

So I endeavor to be civil, even when I'm met with incivility. There's no utility to me in increasing hostility.

But I'm also human, so I'm sometimes going to fail. Knowing when I'm failing, especially in cases where I'm less inclined to see it objectively, helps me to adapt my behaviors to further my personal emotional goals.
 
I can see by the tendentious way in which you phrased those questions, you are not really interested in learning the answers.

Thanks for putting that up front so I don't have to read any further. This new civility thing is really catching on!
 
The suppliers and vendors are the ones who provide the machines and materials with which the researchers do their research. Do you think researchers build the scientific instruments from scratch that they use to do their research? Do they build their labs from scratch and run the plumbing and electrical wiring themselves? Have you ever even set foot in a research lab? There's a ton of infrastructure that a modern lab needs, which the researchers can't and won't build themselves. I used to be a physicist and knew people who had been physicists in the old Soviet Union. They had to deal with the problem of lack of infrastructure because of the nightmare of inefficiency that Soviet communism was. Sometimes they would perform miracles with what they had, but their research was usually fatally hampered. That's why they stuck mainly to working on theory.

Wow. just. Wow. A whole lot of obfuscation. There is a reason why I said that, in the context of this conversation, the vendors don't matter. I was talking about what motivates people! In this case, what motivates SCIENTISTS.

I only partially read the above paragraph, because I happened to see the words "Soviet Union" and "Communism." I think you just godwinned this thread. :rolleyes:



You have dodged the question. Why doesn't communism work?

Uuummm....That wasn't your question. This was:

I wonder if you actually prefer capitalism to communism, and if you do, are you able actually to articulate some reasons why?

I answered it, and I articulated it. Now you ask a second question. This whole "communism" thing is starting to go off-track here

This is really, totally irrelevant to the conversation, because scientists do get compensated fairly decently in comparison to not having a profession. However, scientists don't actually become very wealthy. They aren't, for instance, as wealthy as a doctor. Or hell, even a marketing manager. Hell, even SALES managers make more than almost any scientist!

Astronomers, for instance, are typically the highest-paid scientists: They make a little over $100,000/year. (Decent pay, to be sure. Definitely upper-middle class. But not "rich.") Management positions across the board, the mean pay is about $112,000/year. "Science" positions, across the board, the mean pay is about $70,000. In comparison: A sales manager, a middle-of-the-road professional manager, will command about $137,000/year. An astronomer, the highest-paid position in the "sciences" makes about $112,000/year.

So, what does this tell us?

It tells us that people do NOT become scientists to become "rich." Yet most sciences are very challenging fields. Probably even more so than most management positions. Most scientists require a Master's or a PhD. Most "managers" only require a high school diploma or a Bachelor's. (A Purchasing Manager makes about $111,000, and usually only requires a Bachelor's and maybe some sort of certification. An astronomer makes about $112,000, and usually requires at least a Master's. But even with an excellent PhD, it is challenging to become one!)

As I posted earlier, even Forbes Magazine has done studies on "motivation." Money seems to be at the bottom of the list. And in many cases, money (greed) can actually corrupt.

So your idea of why communism failed (because it "stifles innovation," and that "everyone making the same money, will not cause people to work harder," blah, blah, blah, blah) is of only limited value. To a point that is true. But don't overstate the cause for the failure of communism. In the end, pure capitalism fails for the exact same reasons why communism fails. If you overstate how terrible communism is, then it's only fair for one to argue how terrible capitalism is. Luckily, we have found a nice little happy medium between the two, and it's called "Socialism."

So when it comes to life-saving technologies or space exploration, you prefer the communist model. Do you prefer that with respect to consumer electronics or automobiles? If not, why not?

What's with you and communism? Have you looked up the term "socialism" yet?



The personal injury bar are bloodsucking parasites on the ass of society for the most part. But even they play a role in the capitalist ecosystem. Regardless, marketing is a very important part of the product development cycle in a capitalist society. Without marketing, it would take much longer for consumers to learn about and use a new product, and competition and innovation wouldn't be as fierce as it is.

Who cares about marketing? The trouble is, people see commercials on tv and think they should take those drugs. I prefer doctors who aren't pressured by marketers, or corporate managers who are in turn pressured by investors panhandling their drugs as much as possible. I instead, prefer doctors (and drug research scientists), who are without pressure; doing their jobs, what they ENJOY doing and have a passion to get it right. The less sleazeballs involved in my healthcare, the better off I am.
 
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My Quote:



My evidence:
Rate of death in English hospitals is 45% higher than American
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2013/09Septe...much-higher-in-English-than-US-hospitals.aspx

Its horrible because they can't choose the individual care they want to purchase. Its horrible because they are forced to pay astronomical taxes to fund it.

Those are statements backed by evidence

"Therefore, it's worth noting that the mortality rates presented in the data reflect death rates in hospitals and not among people who die outside hospital. It is possible that the poorer groups in society could fare equally well in the NHS, or even better, than they would do in the US."

And that alone is a huge flaw.

Also to add :

"Further, the differences in the way healthcare systems are paid for in the US can potentially have an influence on the way episodes of healthcare are recorded.

It should also be noted that high HSMRs should not automatically be taken as an indicator that all hospital care is poor."

Also warning signs :
"However, no further methodology has been provided for England or other countries, so we can't say whether the methods used to collect data on HSMRs over the past 10 years were appropriate. Professor Jarman's analysis does not appear to have been peer-reviewed."

If that's your evidence... well that is weak or non existent.
 
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