Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
Torture does not only include physical violence.

What Mez experienced is torture.

A dumb criminal accidentally blurting out a confession is the sheer stupidity of Amanda. When will she take responsibility for her behaviour, her words and her actions?

I don't think she has ever apologised nor paid recompense to that poor gentle man she had slung in jail.
 
Why did the police say she buckled? More importantly why did the police say that they knew what she said was correct?

You really think that after making sure to eliminate all of her fingerprints and DNA while intentionally leaving Rudi's she named Patrick? Wouldn't that alleged clean-up have the intention of eventually having Rudi being the one caught for the crime? Why didn't she mention Rudi earlier ? Why didn't she tell them Meredith had told her Rudi was coming over that evening?

Of course she's not going to mention her partner in crime, any more than he mentioned his. Once Amanda & Raff made a pact to shift all blame on Rudy, that's when Rudy began shifting blame onto them.

Buckled is not an Italian word. They probably meant she was unable to keep up her facade of innocence, so became hysterical and blamed Patrick.
 
What do you think about the decision to deny access to a lawyer for 2 days after arrest? I can understand this may be appropriate in a national security case but not here. In the UK in a similar circumstance Knox would have been cautioned, arrested, detained overnight, and a formal recorded interview in the presence of her lawyer (after opportunity for the lawyer to consult with her client) would have been scheduled for the next day.

If Amanda is going to lie about not having any food or water or comfort breaks, and brutally intimidated by hourly tag teams over 53 hours, I bet she's also lying about anything she can think of to gain public sympathy.

I do not believe a single word Amanda says. She, Raff and Rudy are master liars, enjoying the rumpus.
 
There is evidence she was hit - her own testimony very shortly after. You can call it whatever you want, but call it for what it is - a violation, a breach of Article 3, to which Italy can offer little unless they produce a record. Nor did they investigate as they are obliged to do under the convention.

Imagine that - in 2007, a lengthy interrogation for which the police have no documentation whatsoever except the statement they typed up for the suspect, who had no lawyer, to sign. And they wheeled in their own employee to act as interpreter, who by her own admission, took part in the interrogation and manipulated Amanda.

If you think the ECHR is going to believe the police's version of events in these circumstances, then you are not thinking about this in the right way.

So why didn't she complain? If not the police, there was the USA Ambassador, or even the priest guy, to intercede. Did she make any effort to acquire a medical report?

I thought not. It's all post hoc closing the stable door.
 
What Mez experienced is torture.

A dumb criminal accidentally blurting out a confession is the sheer stupidity of Amanda. When will she take responsibility for her behaviour, her words and her actions?

I don't think she has ever apologised nor paid recompense to that poor gentle man she had slung in jail.

The police rushed out to arrest Lumumba in the middle of the night after they had heard what they "knew to be true". They treated him appallingly and that includes denying him an attorney. Lumumba's account of his treatment was swiftly shelved on his release - which incidentally should have occurred the same day as his arrest, since the DNA results proving he did not rape Kercher were completed then - and Lumumba began to blame Amanda for his predicament, despite having special knowledge of how the police operated.

Once the ECHR has confirmed the violations of Amanda's human rights and the Italians are compelled to annul the callunia verdict, then Lumumba's compensation arrangement will be rescinded.

But, apparently, you find it impossible, despite your claimed Mensa participation, to understand that police interrogations without attorneys and without independent interpreters are illegal and that nothing that comes from them may support convictions, morally or legally.
 
Of course she's not going to mention her partner in crime, any more than he mentioned his. Once Amanda & Raff made a pact to shift all blame on Rudy, that's when Rudy began shifting blame onto them.

Buckled is not an Italian word. They probably meant she was unable to keep up her facade of innocence, so became hysterical and blamed Patrick.

Probably? This is based on a probably? You'll get in trouble with Grinder for that!
 
So why didn't she complain? If not the police, there was the USA Ambassador, or even the priest guy, to intercede. Did she make any effort to acquire a medical report?

I thought not. It's all post hoc closing the stable door.

She did complain - in her memoriale. She need do no more than that. Then the onus is on the authorities to investigate. Of course they didn't.

When do you think the American embassy was notified? When should it have been?
 
So why didn't she complain? If not the police, there was the USA Ambassador, or even the priest guy, to intercede. Did she make any effort to acquire a medical report?

I thought not. It's all post hoc closing the stable door.

Be thankful SOMEONE is closing this stable door. Unchecked, the PLE are likely to similarly wrongfully incriminate.....

..... sorry Grinder .....

.... innocents.
 
If Amanda is going to lie about not having any food or water or comfort breaks, and brutally intimidated by hourly tag teams over 53 hours, I bet she's also lying about anything she can think of to gain public sympathy.

I do not believe a single word Amanda says. She, Raff and Rudy are master liars, enjoying the rumpus.

Back on this? You had no citation before and you have no citation now. Why must you continue to lie about Amanda making this claim?

The question posed to you was about Amanda not being permitted to consult with a lawyer for two days. This is a matter of fact, not claim. You ignored it. But what else can you do? You ignore evidence and make stuff up in your posts.
 
What Mez experienced is torture.

A dumb criminal accidentally blurting out a confession is the sheer stupidity of Amanda. When will she take responsibility for her behaviour, her words and her actions?

I don't think she has ever apologised nor paid recompense to that poor gentle man she had slung in jail.

Have you read Amanda's statements Vixen? Nobody blurted out anything. In fact those statements are not only incoherent they are false. Hardly a confession.
 
Have you read Amanda's statements Vixen? Nobody blurted out anything. In fact those statements are not only incoherent they are false. Hardly a confession.

As for your characterization of Patrick.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:.

And Amanda apologized many, many, many, many times. But why not tell another lie Vixen? It's part for the course for you.

She HAS NEVER PAID him compensation and neither should she. The people who should pay Patrick are the authorities, not Amanda. After all they arrested Patrick after"Amanda "buckled and told us what we already knew" WHICH WAS FALSE!
 
Do you know who Madison is?

"Amanda is confused, terrorized," he told the jury. "She can hardly speak Italian."

By his count, she sat through more than 53 hours of police questioning over the course of five days before she was eventually arrested after breaking down and blaming an innocent man,


Do you think Dalla Vedova was confused as well?

You do know who he is, right?

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Amanda-Knox-a-victim-targeted-for-being-881849.php

On Wednesday, Luciano Ghirga, a lawyer representing Knox, claimed Knox had blamed an innocent man, local barman Patrick Lumumba for the murder after 53 hours of police interrogation spread out over "four days of stress and fear".

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/03/amanda-knox-meredith-kercher-case

Madison here must refer to Amanda's friend.

The lawyers' statements to the press may be less precise than what they present to a court. In fact, the actual hours of questioning* seem not to have been recorded by the police; it is their responsibility to keep track of such things. The lawyers were not present during any of the Nov. 2 - Nov. 8 interviews, interrogations, or custody, up to (for those who were actually called up to be present) apparently several minutes before the arrest confirmation hearing. Yet another violation of Convention Article 6.3c.

You don't have to accept the hyperbole of such statements; look for the actual records. Find the transcripts or other recordings of the Nov. 5/6 interrogations, for example.

*Although a single time (start?) of questioning is provided on the witness statements.

If you had bothered to read the article you would know it was said in court.

Isn't it clear that I don't accept the hyperbole?

Indeed, I have not yet read the article. Nor have I read the specific in-court statements that the article is based on. However, have you considered the possibility the media account may be a distortion (not necessarily intentional) of what was said in court? Have you checked your media source against court documents? Even relatively reliable media may make reporting errors.

I have now read both media articles and I disagree with your analysis as presented in your posts.

Neither article directly quotes the lawyer's reference to the police contact hours and questioning in closing remarks. Thus there are two issues: 1) the potential for rhetorical effects, including some hyperbole, in the closing remarks and 2) the potential that the media reports have abridged or distorted (without malicious intent) the lawyer's statements. I suggest that rhetorical effects are traditional in lawyer's closing arguments, certainly in the US, and probably more so in Italy.

Thus, I do not consider that the statements as reported in the media necessarily reflect the most accurate and precise rendering of the content of the defense arguments. In fact, to my (limited) knowledge, there is no document stating how much time Amanda actually was questioned and/or interrogated as a proportion of her total police contact time. If you are aware of such a document, please cite it.

In terms of the media articles you have cited, both contain either inaccuracies or lacunae which lead me to question their total commitment to accuracy and precision required to fully understand the legal situation at the time, which was the at or about the end of the first-instance trial in December, 2009. Here are some inaccuracies that misrepresent the situation and would mislead the uninformed reader:

1. The Guardian refers to 2 judges a jury of 6 in this case. That is misleading. The Italian system, as applied to this case, provided for a judicial panel of 2 professional (career) judges and 6 lay judges. There was no jury as in the US or UK sense. The only qualification of the 6 lay judges for a first-instance trial, AFAIK, is that the must be Italian citizens and have completed elementary education. The lay judges are not interviewed prior to trial with an intent to eliminate any biased individual, nor are they forbidden from using or viewing non-trial information about the case. The lay judges and the professional judges together render judgment by a majority vote.

2. The Seattle article was somewhat incomplete in stating that Amanda's parents were the target of a defamation suit by police for repeating Amanda's statements that she had been mistreated to a UK reporter (Follian, IIRC). What is more significant, and is omitted from the article, is that Amanda was charged with a serious crime, calunnia, for stating in open court that she had been mistreated by the police. In fact, the series of trials in Italy for this alleged offense is continuing to this day. The point is that Amanda was prosecuted for making a complaint in court of mistreatment by the police; however, the proper course of action for the Italian authorities, according to the European Convention on Human Rights and ECHR case-law, would have been to launch an independent and thorough investigation of her claims of mistreatment. I find this failure of completeness a serious defect of the article, since the lack of such information denies the reader a fuller understanding of some of the peculiarities of the Italian judicial system compared to the US system.

Furthermore, since the hyperbole in the closing statements occurred at the approximate end of the trial, while the misconduct of the authorities, including the forensic malpractice or fraud by Stefanoni, occurred early in the case (in 2007 - 2008), I fail to see the relevance of the hyperbole, if it was in the closing statements, to the actions of the authorities. I do believe you are in your posts blaming the victims and their defense teams for the prior actions and misconduct of the Italian authorities.
 
What Mez experienced is torture.

A dumb criminal accidentally blurting out a confession is the sheer stupidity of Amanda. When will she take responsibility for her behaviour, her words and her actions?

I don't think she has ever apologised nor paid recompense to that poor gentle man she had slung in jail.

Why should she since the police were even dumber by forgetting to record her uncoerced confession and then going on to make still dumber comments like bragging about getting her to "eventually buckle" and that her ridiculous made up story was what they "knew to be correct." No Amanda is holding the winning cards after that round :p
 
If Amanda is going to lie about not having any food or water or comfort breaks, and brutally intimidated by hourly tag teams over 53 hours, I bet she's also lying about anything she can think of to gain public sympathy.

I do not believe a single word Amanda says. She, Raff and Rudy are master liars, enjoying the rumpus.


This may be one of your best arguments to date since it usually takes one to know one!
 
What Mez experienced is torture.

A dumb criminal accidentally blurting out a confession is the sheer stupidity of Amanda. When will she take responsibility for her behaviour, her words and her actions?

I don't think she has ever apologised nor paid recompense to that poor gentle man she had slung in jail.

Others have already pointed out that Amanda apologized for dragging into it but it is really not her fault. It is the fault of corrupt Italian police officers more interested in closing a case than actually solving a crime. Then, once they get there, they cannot admit they made a mistake.

There are plenty of similar cases in that respect. Have you ever heard of Charles Erickson or Ryan Ferguson? The Norfolk Four? In each case, false confessions were obtained and then used to arrest others.

There is nothing new with this case and plenty of other cases have similarities.
 
If Amanda is going to lie about not having any food or water or comfort breaks, and brutally intimidated by hourly tag teams over 53 hours, I bet she's also lying about anything she can think of to gain public sympathy.

I do not believe a single word Amanda says. She, Raff and Rudy are master liars, enjoying the rumpus.

There is no dispute about the deprivation of access to a lawyer. Mignini officially authorised the denial of access, (as he was required to). This is officially documented. I think this was a tactical error by him. Had he allowed access to a lawyer the morning after the 'confession', the spontaneous declaration would be more convincing, but since he officially continued to refuse access to a lawyer for a further two days (during which Knox produced her written 'clarifications'), his turning up at the police station in the early hours to obtain a spontaneous declaration can be seen as part of a deliberate and continued policy to restrict access to counsel.
 
Why should she since the police were even dumber by forgetting to record her uncoerced confession and then going on to make still dumber comments like bragging about getting her to "eventually buckle" and that her ridiculous made up story was what they "knew to be correct." No Amanda is holding the winning cards after that round :p

I don't think they forgot to record it. Their word should be good enough. After all, twelve policemen and women stated that Amanda was never mistreated. Stefanoni's word is all that is necessary to verify that her DNA lab work was done correctly, no need for raw data. There is no need for a motive. People do things for no reason and it is just the times we are living in.

See how simple it all is? So stop asking questions or else you will be charged with calumny!:):):)
 
Last edited:
There is no dispute about the deprivation of access to a lawyer. Mignini officially authorised the denial of access, (as he was required to). This is officially documented. I think this was a tactical error by him. Had he allowed access to a lawyer the morning after the 'confession', the spontaneous declaration would be more convincing, but since he officially continued to refuse access to a lawyer for a further two days (during which Knox produced her written 'clarifications'), his turning up at the police station in the early hours to obtain a spontaneous declaration can be seen as part of a deliberate and continued policy to restrict access to counsel.

I also think this is where the US consulate should have been more active, they should have ensured their citizen was not deprived of access to counsel.
 
The police rushed out to arrest Lumumba in the middle of the night after they had heard what they "knew to be true". They treated him appallingly and that includes denying him an attorney. Lumumba's account of his treatment was swiftly shelved on his release - which incidentally should have occurred the same day as his arrest, since the DNA results proving he did not rape Kercher were completed then - and Lumumba began to blame Amanda for his predicament, despite having special knowledge of how the police operated.

Once the ECHR has confirmed the violations of Amanda's human rights and the Italians are compelled to annul the callunia verdict, then Lumumba's compensation arrangement will be rescinded.

But, apparently, you find it impossible, despite your claimed Mensa participation, to understand that police interrogations without attorneys and without independent interpreters are illegal and that nothing that comes from them may support convictions, morally or legally.

Once he was arrested they would have to read him his rights, only at that point.

In England you can be brought in "for questioning" for up to 24 hours without charge, 48 hours for serious crimes like murder. The duty solicitors only come in once you are under arrest. A friend of mine was on call 24/7 for this purpose.
 
As for your characterization of Patrick.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:.

And Amanda apologized many, many, many, many times. But why not tell another lie Vixen? It's part for the course for you.

She HAS NEVER PAID him compensation and neither should she. The people who should pay Patrick are the authorities, not Amanda. After all they arrested Patrick after"Amanda "buckled and told us what we already knew" WHICH WAS FALSE!

Show me! Show me all the many, many, many, many apologies.

I am sure this will come as a surprise to Patrick.

We all await citation of this astonishing revelation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom