The Historical Jesus III

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@Leumas

Of the various passages that you have cited, which of them states that Jesus is God? "Lord" doesn't mean God. "Son of God" doesn't mean God. It is a Messianic title, applied to both David and Solomon in the Tanakh.

What fiction you write. Your statement is just a blatant fallacy. It is indeed very amusing that a so-called atheist is attempting to mis-reprensent the TEACHINGS of the Church.

You have exposed your lack of knowledge of the Christian Bible.

The LORD Jesus, God from God, has the very same NOMINA SACRA as the LORD GOD of the Jews in the NT Canon.

The Christian Bible does claim that the LORD is GOD and that JESUS is GOD and the CREATOR.


John 1. 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made .

In the Pauline Corpus, the LORD Jesus is GOD CREATOR.

Colossians 1:16 KJV

16 For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.....

Jesus of Nazareth was GOD CREATOR in the NT.

The LORD Jesus is myth/fiction just like the LORD GOD of the Jews.

The LORD Jesus is VERY MYTH [GOD] OF VERY MYTH [GOD].
 
None of that means that Paul believed Jesus to be God.

Again, you openly write fiction. Why is an ATHEIST using the Canon of the Church to promote his OWN modern Heresy?


1. Jesus is GOD CREATOR in the Pauline Corpus.

2. Jesus is the LORD GOD from heaven in the Pauline Corpus.

3. Jesus is GOD'S OWN SON in the Pauline Corpus .

4. Jesus is EQUAL to God in the Pauline Corpus.

5. The LORD Jesus has the same NOMINA SACRA as the LORD GOD in the Pauline Corpus.

6. Christian writers who used the Pauline Corpus argued that Jesus was GOD Creator.

7. The Creed of the Church which Canonised the Pauline Corpus states Jesus is VERY GOD of VERY GOD and God Creator.


The Pauline Jesus was a myth/fiction God Creator.
 
What fiction you write. Your statement is just a blatant fallacy. It is indeed very amusing that a so-called atheist is attempting to mis-reprensent the TEACHINGS of the Church.

You have exposed your lack of knowledge of the Christian Bible.

The LORD Jesus, God from God, has the very same NOMINA SACRA as the LORD GOD of the Jews in the NT Canon.

The Christian Bible does claim that the LORD is GOD and that JESUS is GOD and the CREATOR.


John 1. 1

In the Pauline Corpus, the LORD Jesus is GOD CREATOR.

Colossians 1:16 KJV



Jesus of Nazareth was GOD CREATOR in the NT.

The LORD Jesus is myth/fiction just like the LORD GOD of the Jews.

The LORD Jesus is VERY MYTH [GOD] OF VERY MYTH [GOD].
Paul didn't write gJohn, and it is very improbable that he wrote Colossians.
 
Hasn't changed since the last time you asked. Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, the Pilate Stone


Which have all been shown for the FORGED, IRRELEVANT, MISINTERPRETED, meaningless claptrap they are, which do not any evidence make.

When someone puts forward something as a PROPOSED evidence and then it is demonstrated to be false or fabricated or not any evidence of any relevance to the subject then IT IS NOT EVIDENCE.

The proposer carrying on harping about it being evidence despite it not being so is an UTTERLY IMBECILIC ILLOGIC.

If only you would read the books demonstrating how non-evidentiary those forged, misinterpreted and irrelevant PROPOSALS are, then maybe you would stop telling us they are evidence over and over again.

Read these books if you can do so with an objective unvitiated mindset.

Also instead of watching rubbish on TV do yourself a favor and watch these videos if you can with an objective unvitiated mindset.

not to mention the Consilience of same, parsimony and all the rest.


Unfortunately for your laughable attempt at usurping science, when the "evidences" being used have been proven to be forgeries and fabrications and irrelevant and misinterpreted, regardless of how many there are, taking the weight of their numbers in consideration in yet one more attempt at forging evidence is nothing but an argumentum ad populum illogical fallacy with no consilience of any value whatsoever.

They tick all the right boxes.


Only by wishful thinking and special pleading and appeal to biased authority and cherry picking just to mention a few from the piles and piles of illogical fallacies being deployed to lay a heavy impenetrable pall of ignorance on people's minds to keep them from realizing that their whole culture has been bamboozled for thousands of years by a FAIRY TALE being used by hucksters and brigands to fleece the sheep.

Why do you hate the study of history?


Therein lies the problem... you think you are studying history when in fact you are just peddling Fairy Tales.


Handwave in 3, 2, ...


That is what all your arguments amounts to ... ah and that is in addition to all the imbecilic illogic and other chicanery.

All this HJ claptrap is like trying to rationalize Superman... he wasn't really a super alien he was just a good journalist who jumped over a fence once to save Lois Lane from a mugger and the story just got exaggerated a little when Jimmy Olsen wrote an article about it many many years later in the Daily Planet.

The only motivation behind this pathetic drive to wring out a PATHETIC NOTHING Jesus out of all the flimflam and poppycock of the fables called the Buybull is because of being born in a culture that has been bamboozled and hoodwinked for millennia, ever since their ancestors were forced by the edge of the sword to swallow the crap story or else swallow boiling molten lead?

Maybe if historicists applied some REAL unbiased skepticism and logic, they would have been able to realize that the Jesus FAIRY TALES written by Christians are just MYTHS no different from the ones their ancestors had to abandon by force from their own crap religious fabrications previously enforced on them by their own kinfolk shysters and hucksters and mountebanks and replaced by the ones imported from Judea via Roman Imperialism via Conquistadores via Colonialism via Slavery via Evangelism.

If only they could remove the heavy dark pall of social and cultural inculcation and indoctrination that they have had to live under ever since childhood, they would realize that Jesus is just a load of claptrap like all the other fables from any time before or after and from any culture far and near.

What they are doing is trying to somehow still maintain some FACE SAVING from having to admit that their culture and society and history has been based upon nothing more than a FAIRY TALE.

So they rationalize that ok, we can throw away the fairy tale aspect, but then there is still REAL stuff left in there and we have not been UTTERLY AND TOTALLY DUPED for all those centuries by a MYTHICAL FABLE.

They are desperate to prove that it is not all a big hoax like all the other woo they are increasingly beginning to realize is claptrap.

Much like children who are driven to tears and dismay after discovering the level of adult complicity of their society and parents in deceiving them for so long and in so many ways with the Santa fable.

So they carry on ferociously debating against the fictiveness of the Jesus fables postulating tenuous modicums of possible likelihood of perhaps maybe something approaching a near similarity to some kind of similitude of a real person or an amalgam persona who they begrudgingly and with extreme consternation concede might maybe possibly not have had anything magical about him, but could have been a xenophobic zealously benighted fanatically religious Rabbi or terrorist or freedom fighter or old-new-age hippie or cult leader according to one's own wishful thinking for what one needs this Jesus to be.
 
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Paul didn't write gJohn, and it is very improbable that he wrote Colossians.

You don't know who wrote gJohn or any book in the NT.

I have merely exposed your blatant fallacious claims that "Lord" doesn't mean God. "Son of God" doesn't mean God. It is a Messianic title, applied to both David and Solomon in the Tanakh."

In the NT regardless of the authors, it is stated that the LORD Jesus was GOD CREATOR.


We know what is written in the NT.

We know that you don't know what you are talking about.

Please, just go and read the Canon of the Church and stop your absurdities.

The LORD Jesus in the NT has the very same NOMINA SACRA as the LORD GOD CREATOR of the Jews.
 
You don't know who wrote gJohn or any book in the NT.

I have merely exposed your blatant fallacious claims that "Lord" doesn't mean God. "Son of God" doesn't mean God. It is a Messianic title, applied to both David and Solomon in the Tanakh."

In the NT regardless of the authors, it is stated that the LORD Jesus was GOD CREATOR.
That's crackers. You'll never solve the Synoptic Problem that way!

But what's this? First I was to use the Church Creed as "evidence". What am I to do now?
... go and read the Canon of the Church and stop your absurdities.
That's what priests tell people to do, read creeds and canons. Are you in Holy Orders, dejudge?
 
None of that means that Paul believed Jesus to be God.


Yet more disingenuous straw manning!

I never said Paul believed Jesus was God.

I said Paul took Jesus as A god SON OF YHWH... and as A god Jesus is therefore Paul's LORD and source of his revealed gospel and the LORD of the dead and the living and the LORD JUDGE sitting on the judgment seat of the afterlife and the REDEEMER for humanity from Adam's sin.

And as his Lord god the son of his God he therefore was convinced by his revelation to him of the new wishes of God to bamboozle the gentiles to become Jews who are nevertheless relieved of the burdens of the FOREVER commandments of God YHWH.

Or of course, which is the actual real facts of it as you very well know (I hope), he just HUCKSTERED and bamboozled all of this and thus anything we can glean from his (whoever he really was) so called epistles/fiction is nothing but LIES and BAMBOOZLEMENT and skullduggery. Not something from which we can draw any SANE "evidence" of any sort that SANE people would consider to be a SANE basis for any SANE conclusions.


What I am doing is disagreeing with you. I trust you don't find such a procedure too offensive.


Unlike you I have not called you crazy nor have I suggested that you need a lobotomy... you are the one who seems to mind people disagreeing with you to the point of wishing they would get a lobotomy to stop their insolence.

.. But if that's what he's got in his subconscious he needs a visit from Dr Freud. Or a lobotomy.
 
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... That's what priests tell people to do, read creeds and canons. Are you in Holy Orders, dejudge?


Priests also tell people that God resurrected Jesus... so are you in the Holy Orders too?


He hallucinated no such thing. This is what Paul says about the "vision". And here is what he means by God's son. God resurrected him.
 
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Hasn't changed since the last time you asked. Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, the Pilate Stone-not to mention the Consilience of same, parsimony and all the rest. They tick all the right boxes.

Why do you hate the study of history?

Handwave in 3, 2, ...

Consilience is only valid if sources truly are independent and unrelated. There is no way to shows that any of this didn't come from the Christians themselves.

The Pilate Stone is one of the apologists slight of hand stunts that is on par with Macbeth's poor player ;).

Kapyong went over a huge amount of the Christ Myth literature and couldn't find anyone who claimed Pilate didn't exist. In fact, known contemporary Philo does mention Pontius Pilate in what survives of Embassy to Gaius (c40 CE) and near contemporary Josephus describes in detail several conflicts that Pilate had with his Jewish subjects.

It is like saying since Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War existed Speaker of the House Austin Stoneman must have existed (Birth of a Nation reference there)


Josephus as far as the "Testimonium Flavianum" goes has been tampered with and based on the "And about the same time another terrible misfortune confounded the Jews" right after it is a safe gamble the entire thing is a forgery. Given Jesus ben Ananias [Ananus] (66-70 CE) could have been called 'Christ' (a title) Josephus would have provided more details on who the 'Jesus called christ' was so odds are that is a gloss inserted into the text.


Suetonius merely shows the movement existing in the time of Nero and that is it; existence of a movement doesn't mean the leader founder existed per Ned Ludd and John Frum.

Given how common 'Chrestus' was as a name and title going back to the 5th century BCE that passage doesn't show Jesus existed especially as
Suetoniu states the Jews antagonized (lead?) by Chrestus were driven from Rome.

Tacitus as related by Remsburg and Raphael Lataster has numerous problems.

* "It is questionable if a non-Christian historian would refer to this person as Christ rather than the more secular Jesus of Nazareth."
* "Though Annals covers the period of Rome’s history from around 14 CE to 66 CE, no other mention is made of Jesus Christ.
* "This passage is also ignored by early Christian apologists such as Origen and Tertullian, who actually quote about Tacitus in the 3rd century."

In fact, NO ONE mentions this passage until the fifteenth century some 5 centuries after the copy it appears in was made and near 14 centuries after Tacitus supposedly wrote this passage.

We are asked that EVERYONE that used Tacitus either skipped over or missed this passage. Believing in that nonsense is on par with think you can buy a certain bridge in New York. :D

Even if the passage was real we have no idea where Tacitus got it from.

It is not hating history but that we have is little better then what we have for Robin Hood and King Arthur and we can agree if those guys even existed.
 
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Consilience p=7249374&postcount=3"] We are asked that EVERYONE that used Tacitus either skipped over or missed this passage. Believing in that nonsense is on par with think you can buy a certain bridge in New York.
Readers are entitled to know that that is a fringe view.
Most modern scholars consider the passage to be authentic.[42][43] William L. Portier has stated that the consistency in the references by Tacitus, Josephus and the letters to Emperor Trajan by Pliny the Younger reaffirm the validity of all three accounts. Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to be of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records
Wiki. Of course the Tacitus passage doesn't prove the existence of a historical Jesus, but it is not a manifest swindle as suggested here.
 
Consilience is only valid if sources truly are independent and unrelated. There is no way to shows that any of this didn't come from the Christians themselves.


I love it when casuists try to usurp science and pretend they are practicing the "science" of apologetics like the ID people tried to feign.

See minutes 0:58:00 to 1:02:30 of this video for a comment about this.

...not to mention the Consilience of same, parsimony and all the rest....


Unfortunately for your laughable attempt at usurping science, when the "evidences" being used have been proven to be forgeries and fabrications and irrelevant and misinterpreted, regardless of how many there are, taking the weight of their numbers in consideration in yet one more attempt at forging evidence is nothing but an argumentum ad populum illogical fallacy with no consilience of any value whatsoever.


 
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Paul didn't write gJohn, and it is very improbable that he wrote Colossians.


But Paul (whoever ¿they/he? were/was) is supposed to have written the below.

How many observant strict Jewish Pharisees think that an ordinary observant Jewish blaspheming peripatetic hobo going around preaching blabbering gobbledygook about the apocalypse, after he gets HUNG ON A TREE, becomes the LORD FROM HEAVEN who is also lord of the dead and the living and who sits on the judgment seat of the afterlife judging resurrected people?

But yet think that he was just a normal spirit of a normal man when he saw it as a blinding light brighter than the sun performing miracles and giving him revelations to propagate a religion in total contradiction to YHWH's forever commandments?

1 Corinthians 15:47-52
  • 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
  • ...
  • 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
  • 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Do observant Jewish Pharisees often think that the spirit of God YHWH sanctifies people in the name of the spirit of a dead ordinary person?

1 Corinthians 6:11
  • 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God

How many observant Jewish Pharisees would say stuff like this about ordinary human spirits?

1 Corinthians 6:15
  • 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

1 Corinthians 16:23
  • 16:23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
  • 16:24 My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.
 
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Hasn't changed since the last time you asked. Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, the Pilate Stone-not to mention the Consilience of same, parsimony and all the rest. They tick all the right boxes.

Why do you hate the study of history?

Handwave in 3, 2, ...

Consilience is only valid if sources truly are independent and unrelated.

The Pilate Stone is one of the apologists slight of hand stunts that is on par with Macbeth's poor player ;).

Kapyong went over a huge amount of the Christ Myth literature and couldn't find anyone who claimed Pilate didn't exist. In fact, known contemporary Philo does mention Pontius Pilate in what survives of Embassy to Gaius (c40 CE) and near contemporary Josephus describes in detail several conflicts that Pilate had with his Jewish subjects.

It is like saying since Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War existed Speaker of the House Austin Stoneman must have existed (Birth of a Nation reference there)


Josephus as far as the "Testimonium Flavianum" goes has been tampered with and based on the "And about the same time another terrible misfortune confounded the Jews" right after it is a safe gamble the entire thing is a forgery. Given Jesus ben Ananias [Ananus] (66-70 CE) could have been called 'Christ' (a title) Josephus would have provided more details on who the 'Jesus called christ' was so odds are that is a gloss inserted into the text.


Suetonius merely shows the movement existing in the time of Nero and that is it; existence of a movement doesn't mean the leader founder existed per Ned Ludd and John Frum.

Given how common 'Chrestus' was as a name and title going back to the 5th century BCE that passage doesn't show Jesus existed especially as
Suetoniu states the Jews antagonized (lead?) by Chrestus were driven from Rome.

Tacitus as related by Remsburg and Raphael Lataster has numerous problems.

* "It is questionable if a non-Christian historian would refer to this person as Christ rather than the more secular Jesus of Nazareth."
* "Though Annals covers the period of Rome’s history from around 14 CE to 66 CE, no other mention is made of Jesus Christ.
* "This passage is also ignored by early Christian apologists such as Origen and Tertullian, who actually quote Tacitus in the 3rd century."

In fact, NO ONE mentions this passage until the fifteenth century some 5 centuries after the copy was made and near 14 centuries after
Tacitus supposedly wrote this passage.

We are asked that EVERYONE that used Tacitus either skipped over or missed this passage. Believing in that nonsense is on par with think you can buy a certain bridge in New York. :D
 
Kapyong went over a huge amount of the Christ Myth literature and couldn't find anyone who claimed Pilate didn't exist.
Pilate's name appears to come from "pilum", meaning "spear" or "javelin". Early mythicists had suggested that such a name -- given that Jesus was pierced in the side with a spear -- was not coincidence. Just as Jesus' name meaning "Saviour" was considered convenient, so was Pilate's name meaning "spear".

From "Witnesses to the Historicity of Jesus" by Arthur Drews (1912):
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/Witnesses_to_the_historicity_of Jesus_AUTHUR_DREWS_1912.htm

In regard to the significance of Pilate in Tacitus, a remarkable hypothesis has recently been put forward by Andrzej Niemojewski in his work, Gott Jesus im LicJite fremder und eigener Forschungen samt Darstellung der evangelischen A stralstoffe, A stralszenen, und A stralsysteme (1910).

According to this, the Pilate of the Christian legend was not originally an historical person ; the whole story of Christ is to be taken in an astral sense, and Pilate represents the constellation of Orion, the javelin-man (pilatus, in Latin), with the arrow or lance- constellation (Sagitta), which is supposed to be very long in the Greek myth, and appears in the Christian legend under the name of Longinus, and is in the Gospel of John the soldier who pierces the side of Jesus with a spear (longche, in Greek).​

Drews goes on to write that an actually existing Pontius Pilate was confused with the "pilatus-man" in the Christ astral myth. I suggest that this was misunderstood by others as a claim that "there was no historical Pontius Pilate".

Also, from here:
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/bible2/stella.shtml

"In the Russian circles remained absolutely unnoted the interesting discovery [of the Pilate stone], made in 1961 by the Italian archeologists in Palestine. Excavating the staircase of an ancient theatre of Caesarea of Palestine, the archeologists, leaded by Professor Anthony Frova, found a stone with the letters, hammered out on it...

This discovery is very significant. As many other contemporary discoveries, it refutes all anti-Christian inventions of Prof. Bruno Bauser [sic] and Lutheran pastor Arthur Drews, stating that there existed no Jesus Christ, Apostles, Pontius Pilate, no other persons, mentioned in the Gospel, that all of them are only the latest myths. This theory found great success in the God-opposing circles, both in the East and West, and in the Soviet Union even 20 years before the works of pastor Drews were published in multi-million editions."​
So it sounds like the idea that there was no Pontius Pilate may have been promulgated in the Soviet Union, whose encyclopedias said that there was no historical Jesus.
 
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Pilate's name appears to come from "pilum", meaning "spear" or "javelin". Early mythicists had suggested that such a name -- given that Jesus was pierced in the side with a spear -- was not coincidence. Just as Jesus' name meaning "Saviour" was considered convenient, so was Pilate's name meaning "spear".

From "Witnesses to the Historicity of Jesus" by Arthur Drews (1912):
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/Witnesses_to_the_historicity_of Jesus_AUTHUR_DREWS_1912.htm

In regard to the significance of Pilate in Tacitus, a remarkable hypothesis has recently been put forward by Andrzej Niemojewski in his work, Gott Jesus im LicJite fremder und eigener Forschungen samt Darstellung der evangelischen A stralstoffe, A stralszenen, und A stralsysteme (1910).

According to this, the Pilate of the Christian legend was not originally an historical person ; the whole story of Christ is to be taken in an astral sense, and Pilate represents the constellation of Orion, the javelin-man (pilatus, in Latin), with the arrow or lance- constellation (Sagitta), which is supposed to be very long in the Greek myth, and appears in the Christian legend under the name of Longinus, and is in the Gospel of John the soldier who pierces the side of Jesus with a spear (longche, in Greek).​

The quote is incomplete as at the end of the paragraph Drews states this:

"Hence, according to Niemojewski, the Christian populace told the legend of a
javelin-man, a certain Pilatus, who was supposed to have been responsible for the death of the Saviour. This wholly sufficed for Tacitus to recognise in him the procurator in the reign of Tiberius, who must have been known to the Eoman historian from the books of Josephus
...
In point of fact, the procurator Pontius Pilate plays a part in the gospels so singularly opposed to the account of the historical Pilate, as Josephus describes him, that we can very well suspect a later introduction of an historical personage into the quasi-historical narrative."

Drews goes on to write that an actually existing Pontius Pilate was confused with the "pilatus-man" in the Christ astral myth. I suggest that this was misunderstood by others as a claim that "there was no historical Pontius Pilate".

Don't see how as Drews clearly states in the above that Pontius Pilate as historical.

Also, from here:
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/bible2/stella.shtml

"In the Russian circles remained absolutely unnoted the interesting discovery [of the Pilate stone], made in 1961 by the Italian archeologists in Palestine. Excavating the staircase of an ancient theatre of Caesarea of Palestine, the archeologists, leaded by Professor Anthony Frova, found a stone with the letters, hammered out on it...

This discovery is very significant. As many other contemporary discoveries, it refutes all anti-Christian inventions of Prof. Bruno Bauser [sic] and Lutheran pastor Arthur Drews, stating that there existed no Jesus Christ, Apostles, Pontius Pilate, no other persons, mentioned in the Gospel, that all of them are only the latest myths. This theory found great success in the God-opposing circles, both in the East and West, and in the Soviet Union even 20 years before the works of pastor Drews were published in multi-million editions."​
So it sounds like the idea that there was no Pontius Pilate may have been promulgated in the Soviet Union, whose encyclopedias said that there was no historical Jesus.

Please note that orthodoxphotos is claiming that Bruno Bauser [sic] and Arthur Drews (rather the Soviets) "were stating that there existed no Jesus Christ, Apostles, Pontius Pilate, no other persons, mentioned in the Gospel, that all of them are only the latest myths."

The insanity of such a position is clear. Tiberius is mentioned in the Gospels (Luke) therefore if we take the statement at face value Bruno Bauser and Arthur Drews (rather the Soviets) were claiming Tiberius didn't exist as well. The same is true of the varies Herod and on the list goes on. The reality neither Bruno Bauser and Arthur Drews claimed any such thing and given the USSR was using Arthur Drews as their go to reference and he clearly stated there was a historical Pontius Pilate neither did they claim such a thing.

Note orthodoxphotos page is dated 2003 so it is likely just repeating the claim by earlier apologists that mythism threw out Pontius Pilate along with Jesus.

Show me one work before 1961 that expressly challenges the idea Pontius Pilate was fictional. If it was that common there should be dozens of works by pro-historical Jesus writets using Philo and Josephus to trash this idea. Yet not one work before 1961 points to the flaw in such a belief. The reason is obvious: before 1961 no such belief existed.

The reality is this is a myth the apologists themselves created as NO evidence in ANY known source before 1961 pro or con historical Jesus can be presented.
 
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Pilate's name appears to come from "pilum", meaning "spear" or "javelin". Early mythicists had suggested that such a name -- given that Jesus was pierced in the side with a spear -- was not coincidence. Just as Jesus' name meaning "Saviour" was considered convenient, so was Pilate's name meaning "spear".

Christians in antiquity and even today are well known for spreading propaganda.

You as a Christian know what the ANCIENTS claimed about their Jesus.

What did the Christian under the name of Ignatius say about the origin and birth of Jesus?

Jesus was the product of a Ghost.

Ignatius to the Ephesians
For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.

What did the Christian under the name of Justin say?

Jesus was born WITHOUT Sexual union!!!

Justin's First Apology
And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.

What did the Christian under the name of Tertullian say??

Jesus had God for his father WITHOUT a human mother.

On the Flesh of Christ
As, then, before His birth of the virgin, He was able to have God for His Father without a human mother, so likewise, after He was born of the virgin, He was able to have a woman for His mother without a human father.


Please, stop your propaganda, you very well know as a Christian that your Christian brothers of antiquity did OPENLY admit Jesus was the Son of a Ghost and God Creator.

Jesus of Nazareth NEVER EVER had any known history at any time in the history of mankind.

It is evident that Jesus of Nazareth is a Ghost story.

What did the Christian under the name of Origen say??

Jesus with a human father is an EXPECTED Falsehood.

Origen's Against Celsus
It was to be expected, indeed, that those who would not believe the miraculous birth of Jesus would invent some falsehood.

The historical Jesus was a well established falsehood since at least the 2nd century.
 
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This thread has recently become entirely too full of bickering, incivility and personalisation. If the participants are unable to debate (and where necessary, disagree) in a civil and polite fashion, further post moves to AAH and yellow cards may be deployed as reminders.

Whether you ask yourself WWHJD or WWMJD, please ensure that your answer is "follow the MA", and let this be a guide to your behaviour here.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha
 
Why do you hate the study of history?

Handwave in 3, 2, ...


If by "the study of history" you mean the academics who are quoted in these HJ threads as believing Jesus was real, i.e. people such as Bart Ehrman, Dominic Crossan, EP Sanders and the tens of thousands who Ehrman in his 2013 book (Did Jesus Exist) describes as "almost all properly trained scholars on the planet" who he says agree with him when he says Jesus "definitely" "certainly existed", then you are talking about bible scholars, not about mainstream secular academic historians (most of whom probably have no professional interest in Jesus or the Biblical writing).

And in case the importance of that distinction is not immediately obvious to you, though heaven knows it out to be instantly obvious even to the most myopically blind HJ of believers, the distinction is that most secular university historians all around the world who do not study the biblical literature, are not (or not necessarily) either Christian or religious at all (any religious beliefs they have are completely incidental and not connected to their studies at all), whereas biblical scholars go into that profession solely and entirely because of a pre-existing extreme and often highly devout religious faith, and their professional and academic qualifications are positively submerged in religious studies.

So if you are making an "appeal to authority" in the shape of biblical scholars as your experts in this field, then you are relying on a body of individuals the vast majority of whom are very far indeed from being neutral on the issue of belief in Jesus.
 
Readers are entitled to know that that is a fringe view. Wiki. Of course the Tacitus passage doesn't prove the existence of a historical Jesus, but it is not a manifest swindle as suggested here.

Wiki is only as good as the material it references.


Most modern scholars consider the passage to be authentic.[42][43] William L. Portier has stated that the consistency in the references by Tacitus, Josephus and the letters to Emperor Trajan by Pliny the Younger reaffirm the validity of all three accounts. Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to be of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records


[42] Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence, Wm. B. Eerdmans, 2000. p 39- 53

Wm. B. Eerdmans ALSO gave us the definition of the Christ Myth was that the story of Jesus (NOT the man himself) "is a piece of mythology, possessing no more substantial claims to historical fact than the old Greek or Norse stories of gods and heroes..." International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: E-J 1982, 1995 The article then goes on to "prove" the Triumphal Jesus ie the miracle working demi-god. :boggled:

Another example of Wm. B. Eerdmans nonsense is in the 2004 Jesus Then and Now where the authors are allows to FALSELY CLAIM "Jesus is also mentioned in the writings of the three main Roman historical writers from the end of the first century CE — Pliny, Tacitus, and Suetonus."

In reality the name Jesus is mentioned in NONE of those works NOT A SINGLE ONE.

Either Wm. B. Eerdmans editorial department just rubber stamps everything or they aren't very good. Perhaps both. Van Voorst is like the girl with the curl; when he is good he is great and when he is bad he is horrid.


[43] Tradition and Incarnation: Foundations of Christian Theology by William L. Portier 1993 ISBN 0-8091-3467-5 page 263

A quick trip to Amazon reveals the publisher to be Paulist Press which describes themselves: "Since 1865, as a mission of the Paulist Fathers, Paulist Press has published the best of Catholic thought at the intersection of faith and culture, using all contemporary media to communicate religious truths and to support people in their search for meaning."

So we have one publisher who can be demonstrated to at best not cross check what its writers send it and the other expressly states it is "to communicate religious truths".

All you have demonstrated is when it comes to Christian articles wikipedia has degenerated into a joke as far as what it considers reliable sources.


The James Ossuary article proves this:

A 2014 study supported the authenticity of the engravings. It found that patina on the ossuary surface matched that in the engravings, and that microfossils in the inscription seemed naturally deposited.[18]

[18] Rosenfeld, Amnon; Feldman, Howard R.; Krumbein, Wolfgang E. (2014). "The Authenticity of the James Ossuary". Open Journal of Geology 4 (3): 69–78. doi:10.4236/ojg.2014.43007. Retrieved 7 April 2014.

As the talk page over at Rationalwiki points out:

You are right to be skeptical about the authenticity of Open Journal of Geology There is an interesting piece on Scholarly Open Access regarding a list of predatory publishers for 2014. In the comment section the author states that Scientific Research Publishing (the parent publisher of Open Journal of Geology) "is known for accepting and publishing questionable science, and this could hurt the reputation of your work if you publish in one of their journals."

Of course the first alarm bell should be that what is a matter of archeology is going to a journal in geology. As the Sphinx debate alternative explanations to observed "irregularities" that still result in the original conclusions still being valid.

The second alarm bell is the wikipedia entry on Scientific Research Publishing which indicates the publisher has a multitude of problems: copyright violations, padded and inaccurate editorial boards, and accepted a paper created by a random text generator.

The final nail is that there is no clear connection to any academic institution for what is a very young (2007) publisher who is in China. I have found even the scholarly publications out of China (like Ingle's Endodontics) to have example of less then sterling research. "In the 1930s, editorials and research refuted the theory of focal infection..." claims the 2002 edition...despite peer reviewed sources presenting focal infection as a viable theory clear into the 1950s. In fact, works published just a few years later (Carranza's clinical periodontology (2006), and Textbook of Endodontology (2009)) as well as their own 2002 Essentials of oral medicine proved Ingle's Endodontics was spouting nonsense. When your scholarly publisher puts out two books the same year that say the opposite thing...you have a major problem.

Compare that to the Archaeological Institute of America which published two articles on the issues James Ossuary had founded in 1879 and got its Congressional Charter in 1906 or the Israeli Antiquities Authority which as the Israel Department of Antiquities dates all the way back to the founding of Israel in 1948. The Open Journal of Geology journal is clearly a vanity publication and any article it produces is a joke.

...

I have watched what wikipedia allows as a "reliable source" degrade to the point it is a joke. If you look at the reference you will see the highly questionable Open Journal of Geology being used as a source. That abomination is reliable?!? What are they smoking over there?!? What is freaking next using tabloids?!?

---------

In terms of Christian related articles wikipeida is a bad joke and seems to get worse with each year

The claim of consistency in the article isn't even valid.

Pliny the Younger ONE letter (not letters plural) only talks about "Christians" praying to a Christ as if to a god. Even the Christians themselves admit that as many as two other people had tried to assume the title of 'Christ' by this time: Dositheos the Samaritan and Simon Magus. So there is NOTHING to show this Christ is Jesus and NOT remnants of Dositheos or Simon Magus groups or some other guy that used the title Christ.

The claim ANY part of the Testimonium Flavianum is valid is so full of logic tap dancing that it might as well be a Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers routine. The James-Jesus passage has similar problems. Why did every Christian who bothered to write anything put James the Just's death near 69 CE when Josephus put the death of this James in 62 CE some 7 years earlier. In fact, Christians when as far as to say that James the Just had been informed of Peter's death which supposedly happened no earlier then 64. Little issue of James having a serious case of DEAD for 2 years there guys.

Even if genuine Tacitus likely got his information from the Christians directly or via Pliny the Younger. And if Tacitus in 109 CE knew this much about Christians why would Pliny be asking Trajan on how to deal with them in 112 CE? We know that Pliny the Younger was good friends and regularly corresponded with BOTH Tacitus and Suetonius. He could have asked either of them for information on how to deal with them and not bothered the Emperor.

Piltdown Man had less holes then this nonsense!
 
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