Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
Does anyone particularly care who is and who isn't confirmation biased at this point? This point being not exactly "right out of the gate"?

Heck those people who were confirmation biased towards innocence the first week of November 2007 are now, 7 2/3 years later, looking like the Oracle at Delphi!

Hey, if there was some solid evidence that proved their guilt, I know I would be a guilter. But, the fact is there isn't. Because they ARE INNOCENT. That's not confirmation bias that is objective reasoning.
 
Now I can see why you think Giobbi ordered them both picked up if you think didn't ignore my request. :p

While violations against people of the Ukraine are fascinating it would be interesting to find out if the people we are dealing with have a track history of violations that are similar.

I asked because you seem very adept at it and have a great interest in the ECHR, much greater than mine.

In light of your statement, I will revise my earlier statement: I didn't maliciously ignore your request.
.....

Grinder,
Thanks for your kind words. It is my intent to try to be objective and to differentiate what is clearly fact from hypothesis and supposition.

Therefore, I just did a HUDOC search on "Perugia" as a term (for Chamber and Grand Chamber judgments only). There were 17 hits; some were redundant - translations of the same cases into other languages. I haven't taken the time to examine the cases in detail, except for one, OSU v. ITALY 36534/97 11/07/2002 which had some interesting points and could be considered to have bearing on the use and abuse of CPP (Italian procedural law) by the Italian courts - an issue in the AK - RS case.

This case began in Terontola, in the province of Perugia - but I don't know if that is currently called Umbria (Perugia being a city in that province).

Briefly, Osu, a British national living in Italy, rented a flat to his Nigerian friend/cousin. The friend/cousin was arrested and convicted for drug possession, while Osu was acquitted of those charges. Osu moved to Germany after the acquittal, leaving another friend's home as his mailing address for court service. The prosecutor appealed the acquittal, and Osu was convicted in abstentia to 7 years imprisonment on 6 Oct 1989. Osu did not receive notice of the trial or sentence. On 19 Aug 1995, Osu re-entered Italy and was arrested and imprisoned. On 22 Sep 1995, Osu applied to the CSC to be allowed to make a late appeal in his case.

By a decision (ordinanza) of 30 January 1996, which was deposited in the court's registry on 13 March 1996, the Court of Cassation rejected the applicant's request. It noted that the applicant had had knowledge of his conviction in absentia upon his arrest on 19 August 1995, whereas he had lodged the request for the late appeal on 22 September 1995, thus failing to comply with the ten-day time-limit set out in Article 175 of the Code of Criminal Procedure.

However, what the CSC failed to mention is that, by law, the Italian courts went on vacation recess 1 Aug to 15 Sep, and any notice or application received during that period was to be treated as coming on 16 Sep. Thus, the ECHR ruled that Italy had violated Article 6.1 of the Convention, since the application by Osu, was according to this Italian law, which was ignored by the CSC, not out of the 10-day time limit. The specific provision of Article 6.1 violated was the right to access to a tribunal (court) to challenge the conviction.

So in this Osu case one sees the selective application - cherry-picking - of Italian law by an Italian court for arbitrary purposes. The same occurred extensively in the AK - RS case, including in Knox's conviction for calunnia.
 
Last edited:
They've never been in their socks.

There's never been any credibility to that anyway. The only one clinging to that "aura" clung to it because they knew they had nothing else, or they were just trying to slime Knox for the sake of sliming her.

As opposed to..........???? You mean thay haven't been shown to have effed up?


You need the tape for that? What about that no one in Italy, with the possible exception of Machiavelli, defends Mignini at this point?


Which "camp"? Who cares about random, baseless slanderers?


I know, you've said.

The thing is, Bill, it's still possible for the uninformed to believe the story about Amanda voluntarily deciding to blame Lumumba - especially those who have never heard of coerced statements. Reasoned argument doesn't overcome the instinct to trust police versions.

If the interrogation tapes became public they would change all that. It would be a sensational development that would bring the case to the top of public consciousness again, and could not be ignored.
 
#1 - the next day at 11:30 am all these cops attended their “CASED CLOSED” media event to celebrate their success:

[qimg]http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/case-closed-press-conference-300x228.jpg[/qimg]
“Case Closed” – Meredith Kercher Murder Police Press Conference, November 6, 2007

#4 - From tapping Amanda’s phone the police knew that Amanda’s mother was arriving the next morning. You feel that her mother’s presence in Perugia would have little impact on their plans to interview Amanda without an attorney present, but clearly you are wrong!
Sorry, but I have been out of the loop several days.
I thought that Grinder had just spent the last few days contending that there was nothing to support the contention that the cops targeted 11/5 because Edda was arriving the next day and the whole "cops interrogation conspiracy" was nothing but an FOA myth.
Ken
Are you saying that the cops said these actual words in this interview?
They actually said "From tapping Amanda’s phone the police knew that Amanda’s mother was arriving the next morning."????
The cops admitted this????????????
We seem to have FOUR different sources that say that AK was arrested because her mom would arrive the next day; Frank, the judges mysteriously missing edicts, Amanda herself, and now the cops themselves!!!!!
How this be an FOA Myth?????
 
"My husband and I" is correct if they are the subject of the sentence, which they usually are. Same with "Withnail and I".

If they are the ojbect of the sentence it would be "my husband and me".

Any fule kno that.

It's an Americanism to say, "x and I" and also for ppl who copy HM Queen and Hyacinth Bucket.

I hate that form myself and prefer "X and me", sometimes even as the subject <gasp>.
 
I'll skip over the part where you misrepresented the text messages since others demolished that bs.

As for the use of love and kisses being just a girly thing. Nonsense. Those kisses are signs of endearment. While it doesn't have to mean a lot, it certainly shows that Meredith was acting friendly towards Amanda. So either Meredith genuinely likes Amanda or she is acting and is a big phoney. Which is it Vixen?

Let's go through this slowly, Mr Tesla, as I'd hate you to suffer future social embarrassment. Say you have a big holiday coming up and you know your friends will be around. You send a text, "What are you doing today?"

The reply comes back, "I'm doing XYZ. What are your plans?"

This is a huge signal, "You are not included", especially if all your previous texts have been ignored.

The "XX Love you", is so as not to hurt your feelings. It is not "phoney" it is polite and kind.

Apparent now?
 
The thing is, Bill, it's still possible for the uninformed to believe the story about Amanda voluntarily deciding to blame Lumumba - especially those who have never heard of coerced statements. Reasoned argument doesn't overcome the instinct to trust police versions.

If the interrogation tapes became public they would change all that. It would be a sensational development that would bring the case to the top of public consciousness again, and could not be ignored.

But the point is, none of it would change the big ticket items. They are innocent, which is obvious and has to be said even if some try the strawman argument that this is cheering for the hometeam.

Shooting the piano player doesn't change the notes on the sheet music.
 
It's an Americanism to say, "x and I" and also for ppl who copy HM Queen and Hyacinth Bucket.

I hate that form myself and prefer "X and me", sometimes even as the subject <gasp>.


Is Vixen trying to say that a Mensa, because of his/her intellect, has no compulsion to conform to grammatically correct English ?
 
Hey
Let's go through this slowly, Mr Tesla, as I'd hate you to suffer future social embarrassment. Say you have a big holiday coming up and you know your friends will be around. You send a text, "What are you doing today?"

The reply comes back, "I'm doing XYZ. What are your plans?"

This is a huge signal, "You are not included", especially if all your previous texts have been ignored.

The "XX Love you", is so as not to hurt your feelings. It is not "phoney" it is polite and kind.

Apparent now?


I thought you had admitted to the fact that Amanda's texts had not been ignored since this had been pointed out to you by others sourcing court documents? Are you reverting to your earlier tactics and ignoring the facts?

It's also nonsense that Meredith would have sent texts with kisses just because Amanda wasn't invited. Also, you should notice that Meredith had sent many texts to Amanda with kisses. She also attended a concert and the chocolate festival with Amanda, tanned with her and drew a tattoo on her skin. All of these actions show a certain amount of intimacy. Much more than you would expect from someone who barely tolerated Amanda.

What is clear is that Meredith liked Amanda or she was a 2 faced bitch. Of course the latter couldn't be true since Meredith never said a bad word about anyone.
 
Last edited:
Let's go through this slowly, Mr Tesla, as I'd hate you to suffer future social embarrassment. Say you have a big holiday coming up and you know your friends will be around. You send a text, "What are you doing today?"

The reply comes back, "I'm doing XYZ. What are your plans?"

This is a huge signal, "You are not included", especially if all your previous texts have been ignored.
The "XX Love you", is so as not to hurt your feelings. It is not "phoney" it is polite and kind.

Apparent now?

You're not still defending the nonsense you wrote about the text messages are you?

Yesterday it was Amanda sending "text after text". Now, she's being ignored by Kercher?

You make these claims, post no evidence, have the evidence which proves you are wrong posted against you and come back for more.

Where are these ignored text messages? You state that "all" of Amanda's previous messages were ignored by Kercher. Well, post the evidence! Demonstrate the truth of your propositions. Problem is - You cannot.
 
Last edited:
Let's go through this slowly, Mr Tesla, as I'd hate you to suffer future social embarrassment. Say you have a big holiday coming up and you know your friends will be around. You send a text, "What are you doing today?"

The reply comes back, "I'm doing XYZ. What are your plans?"

This is a huge signal, "You are not included", especially if all your previous texts have been ignored.

The "XX Love you", is so as not to hurt your feelings. It is not "phoney" it is polite and kind.

Apparent now?

And the obvious response to this exchange is to command my two sex zombies to plan your murder. Why? because you left me out of your Halloween plans and you criticized my cleaning habits, of course!

This is the most amazing murder in history. If true, Amanda would have to be not only a psychopath, but a powerful, controlling psychopath that to all outward appearances was a happy, normal girl that liked boys a lot. Raf would have to be a mindless robot since he could hardly have cared that Meredith left Amanda out of her Halloween plans. Both of these people exhibited these strange characteristics only on the night of Nov. 1 and were normal happy young adults as far as anyone could tell at all other times.
How Rudy fits in this conspiracy is even more confusing. He didn't know Raf at all and barely knew Amanda. They never hung out together and no one (except the colorful Koko) ever saw them together. Rudy, at first denies that Amanda had anything to do with it and only puts her at the scene of the crime four months later under strong pressure from Mignini. Rudy then describes the Italian that he fought with as left-handed, shorter than he, and with high cheek bones, none of which applies to Raf. Then Mignini reads a letter that Rudy supposedly wrote (but he can't read for some reason) to the Hellmann court implicating Amanda and Raf. Then Rudy refuses to answer the defenses questions (as is his right). Later, Rudy's version of the crime is incorporated (in parts) into the prosecution's theory of the crime since he is such a credible witness, although he refuses to answer questions (which is his right, of course) and Nencini convicts the kids for the second time.

Vixen, you have convinced me! It all makes sense now. I now see that Knox and Sollecito are guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.
 
For Vixen and others like her, it ought to be enough for Amanda Knox to be a murderer. But as we all know, that's not the case -- she has to be the murderer of the purest and most beautiful soul that ever graced our planet. Only thus can they scratch the psychological itch that caused them to conjure up the Amanda Knox of their diseased imaginations in the first place. Hence Vixen's entirely irrational unwillingness to allow that, by her own logic, Meredith Kercher was kind of a two-faced phony.
 
Last edited:
Sorry, but I have been out of the loop several days.

I thought that Grinder had just spent the last few days contending that there was nothing to support the contention that the cops targeted 11/5 because Edda was arriving the next day and the whole "cops interrogation conspiracy" was nothing but an FOA myth.

Ken
Are you saying that the cops said these actual words in this interview?
They actually said "From tapping Amanda’s phone the police knew that Amanda’s mother was arriving the next morning."????
The cops admitted this????????????

We seem to have FOUR different sources that say that AK was arrested because her mom would arrive the next day; Frank, the judges mysteriously missing edicts, Amanda herself, and now the cops themselves!!!!!
How this be an FOA Myth?????


The police had Amanda's phone tapped since shortly after the murder, so all I'm saying is that the police must have known Edda would be in Perugia on Nov 6th, and that Edda would likely try to rush Amanda out of Italy.

If the police had hoped to force a confession from a lawyerless Amanda in the wee-hours of Nov 6th before mom arrived, then they had to do it that night, and they had many detectives on hand that night to do the job (12?), and even Mignini was still there. Something out of the ordinary was surely in the works that night.

Since they had found 5 African hairs in Meredith bedroom, the police also knew one of the murderers was an African man, and Lumumba was the only African man they would have known Amanda had a relationship with, so the police focused in on making Amanda admit Lumumba was at the cottage that night.

PROOF?

The police likely already had Amanda's text-message exchanges with Lumumba on Nov 1st since they had obtained a court order to tap her phone.

That the police were putting the screws on Amanda that night is further proved by the fact that Amanda knew all about Anna Doninno's (the supposed interpreter) traumatically injured leg, which Doninno obviously had related to Amanda in her attempt to get Amanda to 'imagine' she was at the cottage since Doninno told Amanda she was surely repressing a traumatic memory, just as happened to Doninno when she seriously injured her leg.

Amanda also claimed the police had threatened her with 30 years in jail, and why would Amanda claim that if it wasn't true? After all, Amanda had no way of knowing that the police were going to suppress the recording of her interview, so it's doubtful that Amanda would risk lying about what happened during her interrogation since the police would have recorded it.

Clearly, they weren't giving Amanda tea & cookies as the police later claimed. Even Giobbi admitted to hearing Amanda screaming that night, as did Raffaele.

Another factor that played a huge role that night, was that Raffaele showed up for his interview wearing shoes which had soles with a circular pattern, similar to Guede's soles which had left circular patterns in Meredith's blood on the floor (Raffaele also stupidly took a pen-knife to the station).

You can bet that when the cops noticed Raffaele's circular sole pattern that night, that they quickly became convinced they had just cracked the case, and if Raffaele had been there along with Lumumba (based upon the 5 found African hairs), then Amanda must have been at the cottage that night, too!

The police must have felt they had Raffaele nailed thru his shoes, and according to Amanda, the police kept hammering on her to admit that Lumumba was also at the cottage that night. Why would Amanda lie about that since she wouldn't know until much later that the police would suppress the interrogation recordings?

What happened that night isn't very hard to reconstruct, and it was clearly a brutal interrogation, which is why the police had to suppress the recordings.
 
For Vixen and others like her, it ought to be enough for Amanda Knox to be a murderer. But as we all know, that's not the case -- she has to be the murderer of the purest and most beautiful soul that ever graced our planet. Only thus can they scratch the psychological itch that caused them to conjure up the Amanda Knox of their diseased imaginations in the first place. Hence Vixen's entirely irrational unwillingness to allow that, by her own logic, Meredith Kercher was kind of a two-faced phony.

There is absolutely no evidence this is true. The strange thing is that those who rely upon Rudy Guede's lies, like Nencini did to provisionally convict, they have to believe what Rudy is implying about Meredith.... that she complained behind people's backs. Other than Rudy's lies there is no evidence Meredith was like that.

To repeat, I'll never forget Piers Morgan's face after the 2013 ISC reversal, when Chieffi said the new lower court had to reexamine the sex game gone wrong. As a friend to John Kercher he could not stomach the implication of that suggestion, as it related to Meredith.

By all accounts, Meredith was a normal and kind person, having the time of her life in Italy. There is no reason to suspect she was anything but a good flatmate and friend.
 
And the obvious response to this exchange is to command my two sex zombies to plan your murder. Why? because you left me out of your Halloween plans and you criticized my cleaning habits, of course!

This is the most amazing murder in history. If true, Amanda would have to be not only a psychopath, but a powerful, controlling psychopath that to all outward appearances was a happy, normal girl that liked boys a lot. Raf would have to be a mindless robot since he could hardly have cared that Meredith left Amanda out of her Halloween plans. Both of these people exhibited these strange characteristics only on the night of Nov. 1 and were normal happy young adults as far as anyone could tell at all other times.
How Rudy fits in this conspiracy is even more confusing. He didn't know Raf at all and barely knew Amanda. They never hung out together and no one (except the colorful Koko) ever saw them together. Rudy, at first denies that Amanda had anything to do with it and only puts her at the scene of the crime four months later under strong pressure from Mignini. Rudy then describes the Italian that he fought with as left-handed, shorter than he, and with high cheek bones, none of which applies to Raf. Then Mignini reads a letter that Rudy supposedly wrote (but he can't read for some reason) to the Hellmann court implicating Amanda and Raf. Then Rudy refuses to answer the defenses questions (as is his right). Later, Rudy's version of the crime is incorporated (in parts) into the prosecution's theory of the crime since he is such a credible witness, although he refuses to answer questions (which is his right, of course) and Nencini convicts the kids for the second time.

Vixen, you have convinced me! It all makes sense now. I now see that Knox and Sollecito are guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

It makes me wonder why people who claim to be Mensa members don't get it? I see them grasping at straws trying to explain it. What they usually come up with are simpleton answers or none at all. It's Amanda is a psycho or its drugs, not that they have any evidence of either. But even if that were true it doesn't explain both Raffaele and Rudy's involvement. Three crazies just happen to meet up and killed Mez? Two of which show every sign of being quality and well balanced people.

Hmm mm
 
Last edited:
There is absolutely no evidence this is true. The strange thing is that those who rely upon Rudy Guede's lies, like Nencini did to provisionally convict, they have to believe what Rudy is implying about Meredith.... that she complained behind people's backs. Other than Rudy's lies there is no evidence Meredith was like that.

To repeat, I'll never forget Piers Morgan's face after the 2013 ISC reversal, when Chieffi said the new lower court had to reexamine the sex game gone wrong. As a friend to John Kercher he could not stomach the implication of that suggestion, as it related to Meredith.

By all accounts, Meredith was a normal and kind person, having the time of her life in Italy. There is no reason to suspect she was anything but a good flatmate and friend.


I agree, Meredith sounds like she was an exceptional young lady - not perfect, but neither was Amanda.

Laura and Filomena both testified that their English-speaking roomies appeared to get along well enough ...they would shop together, they went to activities together, such as the concert where Amanda met Raffaele.

Meredith was a few years older, so likely more mature than Amanda, and the last week of their relationship Amanda was spending a lot of that time with Raffaele at his apartment, which would seemingly lessen any roomie friction (if any) with Amanda gone from the cottage a lot.

Meredith wasn't as happy about her fling with the Italian guy downstairs. He was in a band, and Meredith complained to her English girlfriends that she thought he was a player and only wanted sex instead of something more meaningful. Meredith also complained to her friends that she wasn't happy being tasked with watering his pot garden. Their relationship likely wouldn't last much longer.

Even though she probably liked Amanda well enough, Meredith would surely be more comfortable around her English girlfriends since they shared a common culture, and Amanda was a younger quirky American gal, but Amanda was clearly a sweet and loving type of gal who was smart and had lots of energy, so they likely got along well enough.

Laura and Filomena both testified that their younger English-speaking roomies were both slobs, so they had to institute a cleaning schedule, which explains why the cottage was fairly clean BEFORE Meredith's murder and wasn't cleaned AFTER the murder.

Since they were both slobs (typical young gals on their own for the 1st time), it isn't likely there was much friction about cleanliness, just the normal roomie friction that often happens, but never leads to murder.
 
Vixen:
There are so many unanswered questions from others requesting that you provide authentic source material in this case for a host of (false?) accusations that you have thrown around in your numerous posts. Is it too much to ask of you to back up your claims or back down from them and admit you're wrong?
It may have been you (in an earlier post) who asked my opinion of a fellow South African, Van Der Leek? He is an unknown entity in South Africa and has no credibility as a recognised writer. His claim to being a friend of Reeva Steenkamp would seem to be grossly exaggerated. In the court trial of Pistorius which was televised live in its entirety he was never present at the case as far as I know and he has never been mentioned in the South African press as a friend of Reeva's. Two possibilities would seem likely. A) He was Reeva's friend but too much of a "nobody" to have been included in her list of "celebrity" friends, or B) He wasn't Reeva's friend but was too much of a "nobody" to have attracted attention for this false claim.
I wouldn't bother too much with his lies in his Amazon cyber-scribblings.
 
Grinder,
Thanks for your kind words. It is my intent to try to be objective and to differentiate what is clearly fact from hypothesis and supposition.

Therefore, I just did a HUDOC search on "Perugia" as a term (for Chamber and Grand Chamber judgments only). There were 17 hits; some were redundant - translations of the same cases into other languages. I haven't taken the time to examine the cases in detail, except for one, OSU v. ITALY 36534/97 11/07/2002 which had some interesting points and could be considered to have bearing on the use and abuse of CPP (Italian procedural law) by the Italian courts - an issue in the AK - RS case.

This case began in Terontola, in the province of Perugia - but I don't know if that is currently called Umbria (Perugia being a city in that province).
....

Clearing up my confusion on this: Umbria is a region in Italy. It has two provinces, Terni and Perugia. The city of Perugia is the capital of the province of Perugia and of the region of Umbria.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perugia
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom