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Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

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McHrozni said:
No, it's true even if the banking system in Greece is destroyed, as this "positive money" BS implies.

McHrozin
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It might be better to raise this in the economics section where there are some people who might know what they are talking about.

There is no point discussing something with somebody who doesn't know how to spell his own name.
 
Puppycow said:
Perhaps Greece should go to an all-bitcoin based currency system?

:boxedin:
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It has the exact same problems at the Euro does - it's value doesn't depend on Greek economic performance. :)

Reintroduction of Drachma could have a positive net effect on Greece in the longer term. But, in all likelihood, not under Syriza.

McHrozni
 
Is Golden Dawn more to your taste? They certainly share certain other elements of your worldview...

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Hooray for Greece and the 'No' result. Good too that the abrasive Finance Minister resigned, which should reduce the interpersonal difficulties in the negotiations.

The position of the Greek government, often articulated poorly, is not a rejection of prior austerity measures, or of the obligation to pay monies owed, or of the euro or the EU. It is a rejection of the additional austerity measures the Troika wishes to impose as part of any new financing, in spite of the fact that as things stand and as the IMF admits, without significant new growth Greece must default.

I certainly hope the moralizing rhetoric dies down a bit and a serious look at balancing debt with ability to actually pay will characterize all efforts involved in the negotiation. Although I have my doubts, as many political parties in the EU are under pressure from internal reform movements and new parties challenging the austerity dogma, so the temptation is to continue with the scare tactics.

Note that the main economy that chose a more Keynesian approach, the US, came out of the Great Recession more quickly and in much better shape than Europe, which chose austerity. The small current uptick in EU activity is greatly owed to the cheapening of the euro, with exports and not internal consumption leading the comeback. This is highly sensitive to international markets, and can flop quickly in the absence of sufficient internal demand.
 
Great result. Austerity is nothing but a way to get the private losses of banks paid by the weakest and poorest members of Greek society. At the same time, democracy is effectively circumvented by refering to allegedly immutable economic "laws". About time somebody said "No" to this version of the EU.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
Hooray for Greece and the 'No' result. Good too that the abrasive Finance Minister resigned, which should reduce the interpersonal difficulties in the negotiations.

The position of the Greek government, often articulated poorly, is not a rejection of prior austerity measures, or of the obligation to pay monies owed, or of the euro or the EU. It is a rejection of the additional austerity measures the Troika wishes to impose as part of any new financing, in spite of the fact that as things stand and as the IMF admits, without significant new growth Greece must default.

I certainly hope the moralizing rhetoric dies down a bit and a serious look at balancing debt with ability to actually pay will characterize all efforts involved in the negotiation. Although I have my doubts, as many political parties in the EU are under pressure from internal reform movements and new parties challenging the austerity dogma, so the temptation is to continue with the scare tactics.

Note that the main economy that chose a more Keynesian approach, the US, came out of the Great Recession more quickly and in much better shape than Europe, which chose austerity. The small current uptick in EU activity is greatly owed to the cheapening of the euro, with exports and not internal consumption leading the comeback. This is highly sensitive to international markets, and can flop quickly in the absence of sufficient internal demand.
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Look, no matter how objective and nuanced your arguments are, you're basically a Communist & Greece has to pay its debts because credit cards, or something like that - I'm sure that's about the level of rebuttal you can expect from this thread :D

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LondonJohn said:
Of course the money exists. Nearly all of it went to pay back Greece's original private creditors. Ask those institutions if the ECB money really exists, and they'll show you their balance sheets and loan books to prove you wrong.
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Departing from you admitting the "proof" is a balance sheet, I'm not even saying that the money doesn't exist like every bank deposit -if people flock to all the banks to get their money out they'd get the bank system collapsing but not their money-; I'm saying that the money doesn't exist because it's just monetary creation de novo. No expenditures were incurred to create that money but bureaucratic labour, and given the current state of astringency in the Eurozone it's more likely that money is going eventually to grease the gears of their economy and not to snatch its face value out of the economy via inflation.

A different situation with IMF's or EU's reserves. For instance, Argentina has 2,117 million SDR in the IMF, that is some 2,650 million euros. Those funds exists because, roughly, a third of it was contributed by Argentine taxpayers as direct funding, 5% or more was contributed by Argentine taxpayers as interests paid by Argentina on loans granted by the IMF, and the rest was contributed by other countries taxpayers through paying interests. So, some 1,000 million euros of that exist because Argentina exported wheat, meat, car parts and seamless steel piping in that amount and all the Argentines managed to split the bill among us via taxes.

That money also exists as an accounting entry, but it is far more real than these precise ECB's vouchers we're talking about.

By the way, Argentina doesn't owe any money to the IMF. They were thrown out years ago using a pile of money -mostly cheaply printed in the USA- gotten by exporting cars, soybean, glass and electric materials, so, the real deal.

And by the way, if Argentines were asked about what to do with our share of the IMF, we'd massively vote for "give it to Greece with interest rate 0 and tell them to return it the moment they can, there's no rush". And if the major 10,000 Argentine taxpayers were asked, I'm certain the outcome would be also a massive vote in the same direction.
 
My big questions are these:
1) what happens if the euro can no longer guarantee perpetuity?
2) what happens if the USD surpasses the euro in value (1$ = 0.91€ as of today)
 
LondonJohn said:
I'd add: why the hostility?
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Because a lot of people here blatantly "habla por boca de ganso" (literally "speaks through a goose's mouth") which means they talk with sureness about what they don't know, expression we locally use especially when they lecture about what they don't know at all, not by formal education, nor by experience of life. People tend to do that with economy just because the are immersed in one. And they lecture about neurosurgery just because they are potential patients and they were ill three times: measles, an acute bronchitis and a 6-week cast in a forearm. They won't realize of the inconvenience of their pursue.

Whoopi Goldberg said once she hated "wilful ignorance" the most. People who choose to avoid any opportunity to educate themselves and do better for them and their society. It infuriates me when people of that sort double the bet and become talkative in environments where the written word is to be kept and searched for by others in the future. They are like children making doodles on the pages of books in the school library just because they are bored, with total disregard of what that will do afterwards: interfering with the good use of those books, and spreading the notion that any instrument of culture is to be defaced in pursue of personal instant pleasure.

LondonJohn said:
When Greece exits the Euro (which I'd now say is inevitable - the only issue is how it will be politically presented across the Eurozone, what the formal repercussions on things like CDSs will be, and the formal timetable) and issues its "New Drachma" currency, then creditors such as the ECB will effectively be forced to accept repayment of sorts in the new currency.
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That, like the unicorn, simply doesn't exist.
 
dudalb said:
They won't even escape Austerity .although it might be called "a severe economic depression for Greece" instead of Austerity.

IMHO they have been sold a bill of goods by a group of Left Wing Demogogues..and they will regret the decision.
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Naahh! They will bite and fear and scratch and hate the veterinarian, that's sure, but they'll be cured.
 
bit_pattern said:
Varoufakis has resigned

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/06/minister-no-more/

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It was about time! Something had to be offered in the negotiations.

Besides, Varouf... whatever, I've already forgotten him, was good to take the decision and make the first incision. The rest of the surgery and the probable chain of surgeries following is to be done by more expert hands.
 
GlennB said:
If they don't provide liquidity in the very short term then Greece moves a big step closer to printing a parallel, internal currency. We'll soon see whether the Troika's political manoeuvring of the last months was actually geared to provoking a Grexit or was only about regime change. The latter has failed, in spades.
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I'm afraid they are more on the side of letting Greece marinate in her own juices for a little while...
 
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