Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Bill Williams said:
Nothing points more to Andrea Vogt's complete caving in to Giuliano Mignini and his fantasies than this. People try to defend Vogt on this point saying it ain't so and that she's "objective", but every once in awhile it just becomes completely bare and unadorned.
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Just as she has been since 2007.
 
Grinder said:
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I doubt that if DNA turned up they had found in the murder room of a accomplice of Guede that anyone would argue it had to be a single attacker.
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My argument was that given the physical size and strength advantage of Guede over Kercher that a lack of defensive wounds on Kercher was not indicative of multiple attackers.

However I also agree that the physical evidence in the room tends to suggest only one attacker was present. I (speaking just for myself) completely reject any foot print evidence in the room other than Guede's as evidence of anything. As I've mentioned several times I think the bra clasp evidence is the strongest evidence available against Sollecito. Obviously the clasp has been much discussed but I think far and away the most likely explanations are ones in which Sollecito was not present at the time of the murders. However, I am not aware that the physical evidence can do more than suggest multiple attackers were not present. It seems very likely that they would have left some evidence given how much evidence Guede left. But if the semen belonged to other than Guede, multiple attackers would certainly seem like the likely explanation.
 
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davefoc said:
It seems very likely that they would have left some evidence given how much evidence Guede left. But if the semen belonged to other than Guede, multiple attackers would certainly seem like the likely explanation.
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Why was Guede so adamant in the Skype that the "sperm" found wasn't his? If he had left a deposit I can't imagine him not making up a cover story.

AFAIK they did find unidentified forensic evidence both DNA and fingerprints.

It could easily have been just Guede.
 
Grinder said:
Whoa buddy,

When did I say there was no chance? Well, if I said there was no chance they arrested her before her mother arrived by design I withdraw it. I'll point out that my first post or at least one of the first ten was about De Felice and the buckled until correct remark so pretty clearly I was suspicious of the cops. That was when I really took interest and knew something was rotten in Italy.

Now that would require them calling her in at some point so the fact that they didn't and the cops said they didn't and only Giobbi claims only he ordered it makes it less likely her arrival was major or maybe even minor factor.
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I think the comment about Amanda being arrested before her mother arrived just means that they arrested her that morning, as opposed to investigating her statements and then arresting her later if there was cause. They knew her mother kept trying to call her, and Follain claimed Chiacchiera didn't want to arrest her straight away. I don't think it refers to why she was interviewed in the first place.

Giobbi just says whatever he thinks will make him look good (e.g. claiming he knew they were guilty when he saw them kiss, though he wasn't there at the time).
 
Diocletus said:
She's about 65 days late.

Unfortunately, Andrea is kind of a dunce.
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One struggles to explain why Andrea would stay with a sinking ship. It's not as-if her colleagues in the Italian journalism world do not know the way this is heading..... in fact, given the exonerations of Mar 27, the way this has long-since gone.

There is an arm-chair psychological rationale that can be offered for her (assumedly) blind acceptance of everything Mignini..... but it's probably not helpful to offer it. In essence that's what Mignini himself did at his closing in 2009 at the Massei trial. When it was clear his ritualistic stuff was not going to fly, he went all Freudian on us to try to (dietrologically) explain how Amanda's psychological make-up made her a killer.

Yeah, like that worked. Yeah, like that was anything other than a grasping at straws.

If anyone can explain Vogt.....
 
katy_did said:
I think the comment about Amanda being arrested before her mother arrived just means that they arrested her that morning, as opposed to investigating her statements and then arresting her later if there was cause. They knew her mother kept trying to call her, and Follain claimed Chiacchiera didn't want to arrest her straight away. I don't think it refers to why she was interviewed in the first place.

Giobbi just says whatever he thinks will make him look good (e.g. claiming he knew they were guilty when he saw them kiss, though he wasn't there at the time).
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Agree with the Giobbi part. Have no faith in Follain knowing what Chiacchiera was saying or thinking at the time. Doubt any PLE person would release the kids after their statements. After reading Raf's I totally would have arrested them both even without Amanda's.

Hard to grasp that the PLE would fear moma Knox arriving as the Sollecito's were there and connected.
 
Grinder said:
The prosecution believed they had a woman's shoe print, wounds consistent with multiple attackers and evidence on the bra clasp. After review only the wounds holds up for PIP (and only for some) and only that and the bra clasp for PGP. Not much. What may bother some is what made Guede attack so viciously and fast.

What is the theory on the Filomena room evidence? Did the ICSI intentionally mess up the testing of what was found in that room or just good old incompetence?
The scream plays in most all scenarios. How do we know she screamed? We clearly don't believe it because of Amanda's statement. We clealry don't believe it because of Nara. Do we believe that Antonella Monacchia heard it? Or is the only reason the scream is believed is because of Guede's testimony?

I doubt that if DNA turned up they had found in the murder room of a accomplice of Guede that anyone would argue it had to be a single attacker.

Accounts I remember said there were fingerprints and DNA found in the house (room?) that weren't matched to anyone. Perhaps one of the DNA/Print experts can fill the memory in.
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Same goes for the testing of blood and other evidence in the downstairs apartment. Did the ICSI deliberately mess up the testing of what was found downstairs or is in further incompetence?
 
Strozzi said:
Same goes for the testing of blood and other evidence in the downstairs apartment. Did the ICSI deliberately mess up the testing of what was found downstairs or is in further incompetence?
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Is there consensus at all on what went on down there?

Did Frank write it up?
 
Bill Williams said:
If anyone can explain Vogt.....
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I think these people would rather move to Argentina than admit that they were wrong. Few of us (and none of them) thought that AK would be acquitted by the ISC. There were hints of a pro-innocence surge but they were too subtle for most people. The Chieffi report was solidly pro-guilt so it didn't matter that the Nencini MR was a joke. The acquittal was too sudden for them so they can't explain it except on conspiracy theory basis.

It was Hillary... or Obama... or the CIA! The truth will never be known! More dietrology for those that cannot be fooled. Andrea will end her days in the belief that she one of those.
 
Grinder said:
Is there consensus at all on what went on down there?

Did Frank write it up?
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RW is our expert on Frank's writings. I hope he sees this and answers,

I watched the videos the police took of the downstairs flat. I don't believe a cat left that many blood traces (unless it was a wounded mountain lion looking for the light switch). Cloth items were moved, according to what I remember reading from statements from one of the guy's whose bedroom was altered.
 
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zotz said:
I think these people would rather move to Argentina Greece with a fistful of Euros than admit that they were wrong. Few of us (and none of them) thought that AK would be acquitted by the ISC. There were hints of a pro-innocence surge but they were too subtle for most people. The Chieffi report was solidly pro-guilt so it didn't matter that the Nencini MR was a joke. The acquittal was too sudden for them so they can't explain it except on conspiracy theory basis.

It was Hillary... or Obama... or the CIA! The truth will never be known! More dietrology for those that cannot be fooled. Andrea will end her days in the belief that she one of those.
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One last kick at the dietrological cat.

Someone implied that there was a 1/1 correspondence between dietrology and conspiracy-thinking. If I at all understand the concept - a driving force behind the early wrongful convictions - dietrology is at best only a distant cousin to conspiracy thinking.

Dietrology resembles more mythologizing. All cultures mythologize, indeed one of the definitions of a culture is a people which share a mythology. In many ways, mythology is a more powerful unifying force to a culture than evidence-based inquiry.

Everyone here can think of examples.

Also if anyone thinks they are immune from this, I'd argue that they simply aren't aware of what it is which they mythologize.

The added features of dietrology seem to be the inherent disdain that adherents to it hold those outside of their beliefs. "I know something you do not, and you are stupid."

IMO this is what is driving Machiavelli.
 
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Bill Williams said:
One struggles to explain why Andrea would stay with a sinking ship. It's not as-if her colleagues in the Italian journalism world do not know the way this is heading..... in fact, given the exonerations of Mar 27, the way this has long-since gone.

There is an arm-chair psychological rationale that can be offered for her (assumedly) blind acceptance of everything Mignini..... but it's probably not helpful to offer it. In essence that's what Mignini himself did at his closing in 2009 at the Massei trial. When it was clear his ritualistic stuff was not going to fly, he went all Freudian on us to try to (dietrologically) explain how Amanda's psychological make-up made her a killer.

Yeah, like that worked. Yeah, like that was anything other than a grasping at straws.

If anyone can explain Vogt.....
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Maybe there should be a rule that a prosecutor only gets to amend his version of how or why a crime was committed or the accuracy of a major item of evidence (a shoe print, for example) a certain number of times - say 3 times - before it is recognized that he is wrong. And if he amends it 5 times he should be regarded as an embarrassment to the judiciary. And at 7 changes, he is to be regarded as nuts. :boggled:
 
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Grinder said:
Why was Guede so adamant in the Skype that the "sperm" found wasn't his? If he had left a deposit I can't imagine him not making up a cover story.

AFAIK they did find unidentified forensic evidence both DNA and fingerprints.

It could easily have been just Guede.
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And why would the defense ask for the sperm to be tested, if there was any chance it would be Raffaele?
As Raffale mentions, the testing is no good if the defense does it, it needs to be the courts that do the testing or it is meaningless.

A murder like this, with this scene in the bedroom, and then the "expert forensic team" doesnt test a sperm stain! It leaves some of us thinking something is being hidden, something isnt truthful with this forensic team and prosecution.
Its incomprehensible....but then we are talking about experts who cant count the circles on the sole of a tennis shoe.
 
I don't think there was a planned conspiracy, but I do think there was a meeting of like minds and group think. By this I mean, they didn't together decide to plant evidence, lie and obfuscate the truth.

It was more, we need to get this murdering American bitch. And individually, they crossed the line.
 
davefoc said:
My argument was that given the physical size and strength advantage of Guede over Kercher that a lack of defensive wounds on Kercher was not indicative of multiple attackers.

However I also agree that the physical evidence in the room tends to suggest only one attacker was present. I (speaking just for myself) completely reject any foot print evidence in the room other than Guede's as evidence of anything. As I've mentioned several times I think the bra clasp evidence is the strongest evidence available against Sollecito. Obviously the clasp has been much discussed but I think far and away the most likely explanations are ones in which Sollecito was not present at the time of the murders. However, I am not aware that the physical evidence can do more than suggest multiple attackers were not present. It seems very likely that they would have left some evidence given how much evidence Guede left. But if the semen belonged to other than Guede, multiple attackers would certainly seem like the likely explanation.
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How would you feel if you learned that the police did test the semen stain, determined it is a match to Guede, and that Mignini and Comodi knew that? Given that the prosecutors oppose testing it, would you conclude that Stefanoni, Mignini, and Comodi were engaged in a cover-up?
 
Quote of the day, not from me.

"The Italian press has in the last few days had a spate of articles favourable to Rafaele and his new life. Not one has even mentioned the delay in the motivations report."

I wish I'd said that!
 
Bill Williams said:
Quote of the day, not from me.

"The Italian press has in the last few days had a spate of articles favourable to Rafaele and his new life. Not one has even mentioned the delay in the motivations report."

I wish I'd said that!
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Looks like Vogt's work but would she misspell Raffaele?

I can't find the quote nor a spate of stories.
 
Bill Williams said:
Quote of the day, not from me.

"The Italian press has in the last few days had a spate of articles favourable to Rafaele and his new life. Not one has even mentioned the delay in the motivations report."

I wish I'd said that!
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Grinder said:
Looks like Vogt's work but would she misspell Raffaele?

I can't find the quote nor a spate of stories.
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Not Vogt's work.... she would not have admitted to this.

The misspelling of Raffaele's name is mine and mine alone. Sue me.

The quote is from IIP. Still: I wish I'd said it.

As per the spate of stories..... I sense a dictionary war about to erupt as to the definition of said descriptor.
 
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