Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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To address whether Amanda and Raffaele had a defense during their pre-trial hearing and Guede's fast track trial it appears they did somewhat (how much of a defense would depend on one's perspective or bias).

Amanda spoke before the court in mid-October concerning her innocence and I think this is where she brought up formally being hit during November 5-6. I imagine there is more to her defense but I haven't the time at the present to search.

Here is a link to an article concerning Raffaele's defense. Again, there are probably more articles. Search for the month of October 2008.

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/08_...to_7424b004-a1cd-11dd-8e51-00144f02aabc.shtml

Lastly, perhaps Machiavelli would know of any statements of Raffaele given prior to November 5.

Thanks again for producing the English version of Raf's statement. I wish there was a PIP version but accepting the PG version for now, I was very surprised to read how guilty it read.

I wonder how much in conflict with his other statements it was.

And thanks for the above link I'll read it now.

ETA the article is interesting in that at that time it appears Raf's defense is working for him only. I understand that's their prime job but if the same thing happened a year ago the PGP would be screaming that Raf was throwing her under the bus.
 
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You would have had even better results if you had spelled your backwards "LONE" correctly.
:)

The fact that backwards LONE was spelled incorrectly in the present by Davefoc obfuscating its meaning, but correctly backwards in the Bible Code, is just proof that the Bible Code knew all along that in modern times the lone killer aspect would be obfuscated by the implication of innocent Amanda and Raffaele in the crime.

Bible Code knows all. All hail the Bible Code.

:p
 
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I'm losing track a bit here of what the issues are about this. Clearly absolutely nothing determined in the trial of Guede should have been admissible in the trial of AK/RS. This seems to be such an obvious point that it is hardly worth a discussion.

So was anything admitted into the trial of AK/RS that had been determined in Guede's fast track trial or were experts called that testified that multiple attackers had been present in the AK/RS trial? Was this another situation where evidence inadmissible against AK/RS in the criminal trial got into the trial record because of actions taken by the Lumumba's attorney?

Read this from Chieffi's report, Dave:

"Therefore the decision under appeal can be criticized for the flaw alleged [by the prosecution] of violating the law, and for the defect of inadequate reasoning, in the crucial passage of the reconstruction of the event which deals with the presence of multiple perpetrators in the crime, in the residence to which – aside from the victim – only Knox had access on that horrific evening. This is a factor which should certainly not be automatically understood as proof, but which constitutes a significant segment in the narrative reconstruction of the crime, to be assessed together with the other pieces of evidence. On this point too, the new judge must carry out a detailed examination which adheres more closely to the requirements of the law, as well as an assessment of the information seen in the context of the broader osmotic presentation of the [rest of the ] evidence."
 
In the US, it is often real hard to get an appeal heard. It almost has to be something super blatant. Is it better in the UK?


It's not difficult to have an appeal heard in the US since you merely need to file an appeal. Unlike in Italy, many appeals are published and form the basis of 'stare decisis', which is the legal principle of determining points in litigation according to precedent, and these written appellate decisions come the closest to Italy's system of a Motivation Report, but appellate decisions are much shorter, some only a page or 2 long, but others can be over 20 pages.

Back before computers I spent many an hour 'Shepardizing' case law in law libraries (one book at a time), but today it's done much faster using a service such as FindLaw, and then you can simply paste your citation into a written brief.

Apparently, for better or worse, Italy's legal system isn't based upon the precedent of earlier cases that may be similar to a case an Italian lawyer is currently litigating, so these extensive Motivation Reports their trials produce seemingly have no effect beyond the case they apply to (not very efficient).

Even so, Italy's extensive Motivation Reports do allow you to peek up their judicial robes to view all their shortcomings. I was amazed at how illogical and error filled Massei was the first time I read it. According to the reviews I read about it, Nencini was even worse.

But the term "appeal" means very different things in the UK/US style of system and the Italian system. In the UK and US, a defendant has a single, definitive trial, after which there is a definitive conviction or acquittal, and the imposition of a sentence if there's a conviction. The trial is a serious and exhaustive affair, and in the vast majority of cases the court reaches the correct verdict.


Of course, in the US most criminal trials end in plea deals since there isn't enough time to take every case to trial. A poor (but INNOCENT) defendant may take the guilty plea and serve only a few years instead of taking their chances at trial. As in Italy, bogus eye-witnesses, bogus forensics and coerced confessions, can induce an innocent person to take a plea deal. If an innocent person sticks to their guns and goes to trial, all that bogus evidence can often bite them on the butt.

In Italy, by contrast, for serious offences the two-trial-plus-SC-affirmation system is a joke. It basically makes the court of first instance little more than an evidence/testimony-gathering operation. The real deliberation and verdict is arrived at by the appeal-level court. And even then, Italy doesn't trust its appeal level courts enough to let their verdict be the definitive one - the Supreme Court has to have a look too. And only after the SC has signed off can the defendant be definitively convicted or acquitted, and any sentence imposed.


The length of the Massei trial was a joke. Court was in session only once or twice per week with bombastic speeches consuming much of the time.

The American system is far from perfect, but the Italian system is a time-consuming joke.

They don't have any bail system, so the accused must be thrown in jail for many years, on flimsy (or in Amanda's case nonexistent) evidence. A prosecutor in the Italian system simply has too much power.

A very good indication of how bad a process this is in practice - and how/why the word "appeal" should be considered very differently from the UK/US model - is the very high proportion of cases in Italy following this trial process where the appeal-level court modifies or even overturns the verdict of the first court. That, in and of itself, renders the verdict of any court of first instance as largely worthless.


I've read that about half of lower court (First Instance) decisions are reversed on (automatic) appeal. The Italian system may be cumbersome and inefficient, but it does manage to employ many more inept judges than other legal systems can do.
:)

There's no reason whatsoever why a country such as Italy cannot institute a justice system which makes defendants (and lawyers/judges/juries) endure only one, proper, trial - a trial in which the verdict has legitimacy and authority. If there are deficiencies in that trial, there can be an appeals process just as in the UK/US. There might even be an automatic appeal granted for the most serious crimes (just as in the US all death-penalty convictions carry an automatic appeal). But the verdict of the single trial would be definitive (pending any appeal) and the sentence would be enacted immediately.


Italians don't appear to have a work ethic consistent with the needs of a speedy trial. They also don't seem to have a problem with violating many accepted legal principles, such as judges not having ex parte communications with the lawyers, or even discussing the case with each other before it's submitted to the jury room, etc.

The Italian legal system reminds me of the corrupt Mexican legal system.

The current system in Italy, where defendants have at least three trials (and often, as in our case, more) sometimes lasting several years, is ridiculous on its face. I don't accept the argument that this somehow makes for a "better" or "fairer" justice system. And there's no reason to think that a single, competent court which examines all the issues in proper depth would be any less fair than an automatic two-trial (+ SC) system where the verdict of the first court is not much more than the equivalent of a committal verdict (or Grand Jury indictment) in UK or US courts.


You're preaching to the choir –– Hallelujah!
 
Then with equal respect I ask that you stop repeating the meme.

My reading of Massei is that none of the experts said it couldn't have been multiple attackers.

The fact, much less the assertion, that 8 of 9 say it could have been a single attacker is near meaningless unless they rule out multiple attackers. <snip>

Assuming what Bill has said is true, it is not "near meaningless" that 8 of the 9 said it could have been a single attacker. In looking for reasonable doubt, the court is supposed to decide if there are possibilities that are consistent with innocence. One of the bedrock assumptions of the PG crowd, and of the judges that voted to convict, is that this crime must have been committed by multiple attackers. If a series of experts conclude it could have gone either way, that eliminates the firm assumption by these people that it was definitely multiple attackers.

If it could have been either multiple or single, and there is no believable evidence for the presence of more than one person, it undermines the whole case against any additional perps.
 
To address whether Amanda and Raffaele had a defense during their pre-trial hearing and Guede's fast track trial it appears they did somewhat (how much of a defense would depend on one's perspective or bias).

Amanda spoke before the court in mid-October concerning her innocence and I think this is where she brought up formally being hit during November 5-6. I imagine there is more to her defense but I haven't the time at the present to search.

Here is a link to an article concerning Raffaele's defense. Again, there are probably more articles. Search for the month of October 2008.

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/08_...to_7424b004-a1cd-11dd-8e51-00144f02aabc.shtml

Lastly, perhaps Machiavelli would know of any statements of Raffaele given prior to November 5.

It seems to me that their pre-trial hearing (where they must have been represented) and Guede's fast track trial are two separate things. Even if they had representatives attend Guede's trial, they were not the ones being charged in that trial, so they clearly were not able to defend against specific charges.
 
Then with equal respect I ask that you stop repeating the meme.

My reading of Massei is that none of the experts said it couldn't have been multiple attackers.
The fact, much less the assertion, that 8 of 9 say it could have been a single attacker is near meaningless unless they rule out multiple attackers.

I'm never sure whether or not this is one of those dictionary battles in another guise!

Introna certainly said that it could have only been one attacker. If not, then Massei has a strange way of summarizing the good professor!!!!

I also struggle to make sense as to what we're disagreeing on. My memory of the other seven is that it is as you say, they could neither rule in nor rule out multiple attackers.

The point being - my reading of the consensus that Massei himself summarizes in his court is that it is, as you say, meaningless to say, really, that it could have been multiple, or could have been single. Aside from Introna (one way) and presumably Lalli (the other way) there simply is no consensus.

Yet - here's what's at issue; Massei simply substitutes his own reading of the forensics on this point, rather than letting "the evidence" lead his thinking. Despite what the experts said, Massei substitutes his own imaginings:

Massei page 396 said:
In fact, putting together the elements mentioned above - including, of course, the forensic observations - it is considered that the injuries and the violence were the
result of an action of several people.​

Grinder - it is meaningless to ask me to stop asserting something when reading the record confirms it. Read Massei again on Introna. Why not ask instead Machiavelli to stop asserting that multiple attackers is a "judicial fact"? Better still, make this point to the Italian judiciary......

..... oh wait, this case is over. It's been finalized by the ISC on March 27 with exonerations. What's the issue of multiple attackers, then, in an AK/RS thread? There may have been 100 attackers, but the judicial truth is that none of them are AK or RS.
 
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Then with equal respect I ask that you stop repeating the meme.

My reading of Massei is that none of the experts said it couldn't have been multiple attackers.

The fact, much less the assertion, that 8 of 9 say it could have been a single attacker is near meaningless unless they rule out multiple attackers.

IMO certainly a court could look at the experts' statements and conclude there were multiple attackers. Perhaps you could provide the testimony or something that you believe proves the attack was by one person. The absence of evidence doesn't prove absence. No evidence of Guede in Filomena's room doesn't prove he wasn't in it.

I've always thought the lone wolf strategy was unnecessarily limiting.

This in no way implicates the kids.

ETA - I never bought into the room was too small for more than one attacker. I think that is a forced concept. I believe there pictures with four or more fat cops in there.

IMO, a more interesting question would be what evidence do you see that indicates multiple attackers? Is it that Meredith was skilled in martial arts and could not have been subdued by one attacker? Or is it the post attack clean up? Or is it Amanda's confession? Or is it the staged break-in? Or is it the multiple knives used? Or is it the false alibi of the "kids"? Or is it Rud(i,y)'s account of the crime? Or is it the bloody footprints? Or is it the "kids" post crime behavior?

Or is it a total assessment (osmotic) of all theses things together?
 
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Assuming what Bill has said is true, it is not "near meaningless" that 8 of the 9 said it could have been a single attacker. In looking for reasonable doubt, the court is supposed to decide if there are possibilities that are consistent with innocence. One of the bedrock assumptions of the PG crowd, and of the judges that voted to convict, is that this crime must have been committed by multiple attackers. If a series of experts conclude it could have gone either way, that eliminates the firm assumption by these people that it was definitely multiple attackers.

If it could have been either multiple or single, and there is no believable evidence for the presence of more than one person, it undermines the whole case against any additional perps.

The experts were forensic scientists and said it could have been one. The court looking at more than the forensics of the wounds etc. concluded there were multiple attackers. Unless the experts ruled out multiple (which defense expert Introna tried with the room's too small gambit) then saying it could have been one is near meaningless.

They added factors you would dispute but they didn't say IIRC because one expert said there had to be multiple therefore there were multiple.

I think the biggest flaw is that the kids shouldn't be tasked with either tracking down the others or proving there was only one. The choice being a dilemma or a Morton's fork.
 
The experts were forensic scientists and said it could have been one. The court looking at more than the forensics of the wounds etc. concluded there were multiple attackers. Unless the experts ruled out multiple (which defense expert Introna tried with the room's too small gambit) then saying it could have been one is near meaningless.

They added factors you would dispute but they didn't say IIRC because one expert said there had to be multiple therefore there were multiple.

I think the biggest flaw is that the kids shouldn't be tasked with either tracking down the others or proving there was only one. The choice being a dilemma or a Morton's fork.

I guess we'll disagree on this one. I don't see any way that multiple experts saying it could be a single attacker is meaningless, when the prosecution is trying to prove BARD that it must have been three people. I agree that in and of itself does not exonerate the kids, but by asserting that there is an alternative scenario that is consistent with innocence, it is key to at least producing doubt that the prosecutions assertions as to how the crime happened are true.

I see this whole "multiple attacker" think as the prosecution trying to flip the burden of proof. Having experts say it could be single or multiple just means they don't know, which is an issue for the prosecution trying to claim it has to be multiple attackers, IMO.
 
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Mach could you provide a couple of articles on Mignini's latest lawsuit against Maori?

I discovered the one, lone, Italian journalist who Machiavelli cited, without providing the link, that the Marasca/Bruno exonerations were illogical. Everyone else in a country of 61M people seems to have moved on seemingly happy that their judiciary finally got it right and averted complete embarrassment....

..... except for a small cadre huddled around Mr. Mignini. I've looked for articles covering Mignini's lawsuit against Maori, but it seems to be off everyone's radar. No one seems to take Mr. Mignini seriously any more.

Of course, a link citing the current First President of the Court of Cassation commenting that he agrees with Mignini's views would case me pause. Maybe Machiavelli can provide that link.
 
IMO, a more interesting question would be what evidence do you see that indicates multiple attackers? Is it that Meredith was skilled in martial arts and could not have been subdued by one attacker? Or is it the post attack clean up? Or is it Amanda's confession? Or is it the staged break-in? Or is it the multiple knives used? Or is it the false alibi of the "kids"? Or is it Rud(i,y)'s account of the crime? Or is it the bloody footprints? Or is it the "kids" post crime behavior?

Or is it a total assessment (osmotic) of all theses things together?

I would look at the lack of significant defensive wounds as number one. Also what the prosecution claimed and I don't agree with, the footprints "in blood", the bathmat print (not a match to anyone and certainly could have been Guede's), the "staged" break in and the statement of Amanda's putting herself there.

The above is not intended to reflect my position but to say that the experts saying it could have been one doesn't hold much weight against the other "fact" they believed.

I've asked Mach what would have happened if Guede had been convicted and the report said he did it alone. Would that have set the kids free?
 
I think the biggest flaw is that the kids shouldn't be tasked with either tracking down the others or proving there was only one. The choice being a dilemma or a Morton's fork.

This part is true and perhaps the real issue.
 
I discovered the one, lone, Italian journalist who Machiavelli cited, without providing the link, that the Marasca/Bruno exonerations were illogical. Everyone else in a country of 61M people seems to have moved on seemingly happy that their judiciary finally got it right and averted complete embarrassment....

Is it 8 out of 9 Italians are happy with the decision? :rolleyes:

Everyone else...please. Where do you get this idea? Were there hundreds of articles cheering the verdict?

..... except for a small cadre huddled around Mr. Mignini. I've looked for articles covering Mignini's lawsuit against Maori, but it seems to be off everyone's radar. No one seems to take Mr. Mignini seriously any more.

Of course, a link citing the current First President of the Court of Cassation commenting that he agrees with Mignini's views would case me pause. Maybe Machiavelli can provide that link.

Might help if you spelled it Mauri (I think he signs that way :p) as the article christianahannah posted did but not in the Massei Italian report. Spelling of names seems optional in Italy.
 
Is it 8 out of 9 Italians are happy with the decision? :rolleyes:

Everyone else...please. Where do you get this idea? Were there hundreds of articles cheering the verdict?

Not that I am aware of. I think those of us that have been wrapped up in this case were interested, and cheered, or jeered, depending on which side we ascribe to. The general public, in Italy and otherwise, seems to have been mostly wondering when this thing will end.
 
I guess we'll disagree on this one. I don't see any way that multiple experts saying it could be a single attacker is meaningless, when the prosecution is trying to prove BARD that it must have been three people. I agree that in and of itself does not exonerate the kids, but by asserting that there is an alternative scenario that is consistent with innocence, it is key to at least producing doubt that the prosecutions assertions as to how the crime happened are true.

I see this whole "multiple attacker" think as the prosecution trying to flip the burden of proof. Having experts say it could be single or multiple just means they don't know, which is an issue for the prosecution trying to claim it has to be multiple attackers, IMO.

Certainly we can disagree on this. I think them not being able to prove there were multiple people involved by certain forensic is meaningless if they can show by other means that multiple people were involved. That's what they claimed to have done at least in the Massei trial.

I don't remember Massei saying that because the Guede trial concluded there were multiple attackers it must be the kids though in the appeals and ISC that does seem to have come to play.

Mach - if Massei had found the kids not guilty would have the second instance court or the ISC have returned the case because multiple attackers weren't accounted for?
 
Is it 8 out of 9 Italians are happy with the decision? :rolleyes:
The only thing this humble servant knows with 100% certainty is that at least 3 of the 5 members of Section 5 are happy with it. At least. Any more than that is overkill.

Everyone else...please. Where do you get this idea? Were there hundreds of articles cheering the verdict?
I sense another round of dictionary and frame-up coming!



Might help if you spelled it Mauri (I think he signs that way :p) as the article christianahannah posted did but not in the Massei Italian report. Spelling of names seems optional in Italy.

I was thinking of the New Zealand Haka. My bad.
 
I sense another round of dictionary and frame-up coming!

I sense that you have nothing to back the claim that "Everyone else in a country of 61M people seems to have moved on seemingly happy that their judiciary finally got it right and averted complete embarrassment...."

I am interested in how the verdict is playing in Italy and when you make a pronouncement as you did I would expect you could provide some backing for it.

No, I must confess I would have been shocked if you could have anything beginning to substantiate: Everyone else in a country of 61M people seems to have moved on seemingly happy that their judiciary finally got it right and averted complete embarrassment

Do you have a couple articles in mainstream Italian pubs at least?
 
I would look at the lack of significant defensive wounds as number one. ...
I've asked Mach what would have happened if Guede had been convicted and the report said he did it alone. Would that have set the kids free?

This never seemed to me to be very strong evidence. I assume that they mean bruises on Meredith's arms or hands. She did have cuts on her fingertips where she grabbed the blade. But a lot of females would kick, not hit. Rudy probably got behind her where she couldn't hit him and after that she couldn't or was not skilled enough to defend herself. The main point is that this stuff is conjecture not strong evidence.

On your question to Mach, I'm sure that the Knox defense would use that if Guede's court judged him to be the sole attacker. If Knox-Sollecito were found guilty anyway then Guede could use that in his appeal. It just seems like a very messy system.
 
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