Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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Only improbable if you have reason to suppose that each of their movements represents some commonality of behaviour with no common cause. You claim they have that - a gunshot - my impression is they each act quite independently and none in a way which obviously marks a sudden reaction to a loud report.

I happen to be a big fan of objective, empirical data as opposed to subjective opinion, which let's face it, might be a bit biased in your case, don't you think?

Let's look at Roy Kellerman first. Please let it run back to the beginning in order to get the entire story.

kellerman2.gif

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To summarise, you think there were (at least) four shots, on or around frames 150-160, 223, 285 and 313. You think most witnesses who claim to have heard three shots didn't hear the second shot.

That second shot you surmise was subsonic, so not a conventional rifle shot, and fired perhaps from the "Daltex" building, which I see is roughly half as far again as Oswald would have fired, but that bullet not only hit Kennedy but passed right through both him and governor Connally.

Can you speculate on what they were shot with?
 
To summarise, you think there were (at least) four shots, on or around frames 150-160, 223, 285 and 313. You think most witnesses who claim to have heard three shots didn't hear the second shot.

That second shot you surmise was subsonic, so not a conventional rifle shot, and fired perhaps from the "Daltex" building, which I see is roughly half as far again as Oswald would have fired, but that bullet not only hit Kennedy but passed right through both him and governor Connally.

Can you speculate on what they were shot with?

I know it's blasphemous to say such a thing, but I just don't know.

What I do know is that no one I am aware of, actually heard that shot. The Connallys made that very clear, and they were corroborated by a small army of other witnesses, including the others in the limo. Furthermore, no one reacted to that shot like they did, to the ones at the end.

What is YOUR explanation?
 
I happen to be a big fan of objective, empirical data as opposed to subjective opinion, which let's face it, might be a bit biased in your case, don't you think?

Let's look at Roy Kellerman first. Please let it run back to the beginning in order to get the entire story.

Oh, yes, opinion might be biased in everyone's case. In the case of Agent Kellerman, why in your opinion is it significant that his shirt collar is covered by his jacket, since he is only just returning to a normal seated position after having twisted round to look back? I understand that you want that to be interpreted as his having involuntarily hunched his shoulders, but we just watched the guy swing around in his seat so that really isn't convincing.

What in your opinion is he doing with his left hand at his ear? Was he wearing an earpiece whose cable was tugged as he twisted round? I thought at first he was straightening his glasses, though the quality is too poor for me to tell if he is actually wearing any. Are you asking us to suppose he's sticking one finger in one ear because of a loud bang? What in your opinion should we infer?
 
Wasn't there a witness on the 5th floor of the SBD, directly below LHO, who heard three shots that went

Bang
Click-click
Bang
Click-click
Bang

??

ETA: Yep, Harold Norman. He heard the bolt and the shells hitting the floor. According to Bonnie Ray Williams, Norman said he heard hit while the shooter was shooting.

Norman was the only one who claimed he heard three shots from the 6th floor.

Amazingly, the three people sitting in the 5th floor window, right below LHO, all heard 3 shots from that location above them.

That is simply, false.

Representative FORD - Where did you think the sound of the first shot came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from below. That is what I thought.

Representative FORD - As you looked out the window and you were looking at the President's car.

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Representative FORD - Did you have a distinct impression as to whether the sound came from your left or from your right?

Mr. JARMAN - I am sure it came from the left.


Hmm.. what was below Jarman and to his left??

That's right! The third floor window in the Daltex building, behind which was a professional criminal who was with Jack Ruby the night before and had connections to David Ferrie and Carlos Marcello, who confessed to ordering the assassination.

Williams described the first shot like this, first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody even maybe a motorcycle backfire.

Do you suppose he thought there was a motorcyle on the floor above him?
 
Oh, yes, opinion might be biased in everyone's case. In the case of Agent Kellerman, why in your opinion is it significant that his shirt collar is covered by his jacket, since he is only just returning to a normal seated position after having twisted round to look back?

Watch the presentation again. He had already, fully turned to the front before he began to hunch his shoulders upward and forward, briefly hiding the collar of his shirt. He then lowered his shoulders into their natural position.

That was a classic startle reaction as defined by Hunt & Landis, who I cited.

As he did that, he simultaneously raised his hand to his left ear, for 5/18ths of one second, as he twisted to his right, while he was simultaneously ducking.

Those are objective, empirical facts.

And if that's not enough, he did all that at the same time that he claimed there was a "flurry" of shells coming into the car.

Come on Jack; there comes a point when denial gets a bit silly.

I understand that you want that to be interpreted as his having involuntarily hunched his shoulders, but we just watched the guy swing around in his seat so that really isn't convincing.

Involuntary startle reactions do not begin until roughly a third of a second following the stimulus. That's why Alvarez said the reactions to the 285 "noise", began at 290-291, which is about when Kellerman's began.

What in your opinion is he doing with his left hand at his ear?

I think that was an involuntary, protective reaction. He was shielding his ear.

Watch the lady in black on the far right of the screen, in this animation from a video taken of the 1996, bombing of Olympic Village in Atlanta. Not only does she hunch her shoulders like Kellerman did, but she raises her left hand to shield her ear, as well - also for just a fraction of a second.

atlanta1996.gif
 
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Watch the presentation again. He had already, fully turned to the front before he began to hunch his shoulders upward and forward, briefly hiding the collar of his shirt. He then lowered his shoulders into their natural position.

That was a classic startle reaction as defined by Hunt & Landis, who I cited.

As he did that, he simultaneously raised his hand to his left ear, for 5/18ths of one second, as he twisted to his right, while he was simultaneously ducking.

Those are objective, empirical facts.

And if that's not enough, he did all that at the same time that he claimed there was a "flurry" of shells coming into the car.

Come on Jack; there comes a point when denial gets a bit silly.



Involuntary startle reactions do not begin until roughly a third of a second following the stimulus. That's why Alvarez said the reactions to the 285 "noise", began at 290-291, which is about when Kellerman's began.



I think that was an involuntary, protective reaction. He was shielding his ear.

Watch the lady in black on the far right of the screen, in this animation from a video taken of the 1996, bombing of Olympic Village in Atlanta. Not only does she hunch her shoulders like Kellerman did, but she raises her left hand to shield her ear, as well - also for just a fraction of a second.

[qimg]http://jfkhistory.com/atlanta1996.gif[/qimg]

From what? a muzzle blast at that distance might startle someone, but it certainly won't cause hearing damage, and from my experience with supersonic rounds downrange they do cause a mini-sonic boom when the projo passes your location, but that certainly doesn't cause someone to grab for their ear - most folks that are unaccustomed to being on the receiving end of rifle fire may not even recognize the noise as representing a threat to themselves or others.
 
You guys missed one!

I'm disappointed. Why should I be the one who has to post your rebuttals for you?

CE399 was proven to have been fired from Oswald's rifle, to the exclusion of all others. So, the bullet that wounded Connally and probably JFK, must have come from Oswald's rifle, right?

Let's look at the evidence. This is from John Connally's autobiography, entitled, "In History's Shadow",

..the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that passed though my back, chest and wrist and worked itself loose from my thigh.

Now let's be fair. Connally was not in the greatest shape at the time. Maybe he was just a bit delusional. Fortunately for us however, his good friend, District Attorney, Henry Wade, was not. This is from an interview with the
Dallas Morning News

I also went out to see (Gov. John) Connally, but he was in the operating room. Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on. I talked with Nellie Connally a while and then went on home.

Q: What did you do with the bullet? Is this the famous pristine bullet people have talked about?

A: I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet.


The nurse did exactly as she was told, and passed the bullet to the nearest cop, which happened to be officer Bobby Nolan, who was guarding Connally's room at the time. I managed to track Nolan down a few years ago, and interviewed him. With his permission, I recorded that interview. This is part of it.

Nolan: I was talking to a man who was one of governor Connally's aides. His name was - I think it was either Stinton or Stimmons (Bill Stinson). And he was an aide to the Governor. And she came up and told him that she had the bullet that came off of the gurney.

Now I don't know what gurney. I think they meant Governor Connally's gurney. And she said, "What do you want me to do with it?" He and I were just sitting there in the hallway talking to me and said, "Give it to him"

Q. Was it a bullet fragment or a complete bullet?

Nolan: I don't know. It was a - they told me that is was a bullet.

And I don't know if it was a fragment of a bullet or a whole bullet because it was in a little, small brown envelope. And it was sealed and it was about, I'd say 2 by 3 inches. And it was in that envelope when I got it and I never did look at it or anything.

Q. Now when the nurse gave it to you, did she describe it as a bullet fragment or as a bullet.

Nolan: Uh no. She just said it was a bullet. That's all.


Sooo... it seems that Connally was right. The bullet fell from his "gurney", onto the floor as they were transferring him to an operating table. A nurse picked it up, who was apparently the same one that ran into DA Wade.

She showed it to Wade and told him that it came from Connally's gurney. He instructed her to give it to the police, ASAP, which is exactly what she did.

Nolan told me, that he delivered that bullet to the DPD, shortly after his shift ended, that evening.

I'm sure that most of you see the problem already. That bullet could not possibly have been the one that Daryl Tomlinson found in the cellar of the hospital and passed on to his supervisor, O.P. Wright.

Now, before everyone starts second guessing me, NO! That bullet was NOT PLANTED. In fact, it wasn't even CE399. I will prove that to you, in the following article, which explains all of this in much greater detail.

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html
 
From what? a muzzle blast at that distance might startle someone, but it certainly won't cause hearing damage,

This was an involuntary reaction. No thinking was involved.

and from my experience with supersonic rounds downrange they do cause a mini-sonic boom when the projo passes your location, but that certainly doesn't cause someone to grab for their ear - most folks that are unaccustomed to being on the receiving end of rifle fire may not even recognize the noise as representing a threat to themselves or others.

It doesn't matter what they "recognize". They have no say over their actions during the fraction of a second in which they are startled.

The clincher is the lady in black in the Atlanta bombing video I posted. Tell her that she's not supposed to shield her ear.
 
I don't recall ever saying that there "needed" to be an accomplice.

In fact, one good shooter probably could have done it alone.

Or a slightly above average shooter - see LHO's marksmanship scores during his marine service.

As to you saying that there "needed" to be an accomplice, I give you Exhibit A:

There is a great deal which requires an accomplice.
 
Good question. I would bet that the early shots came from the Daltex and bet a lesser amount that the other loud shot came from another shooter in the TSBD.

There are other possibilities for either of course.

And, of course, you have no burden of proof to defend either since there are so many possibilities.
 
This was an involuntary reaction. No thinking was involved.



It doesn't matter what they "recognize". They have no say over their actions during the fraction of a second in which they are startled.

The clincher is the lady in black in the Atlanta bombing video I posted. Tell her that she's not supposed to shield her ear.

Really? you mean the folks that don't recognize the sound of a passing round as a threat always grab their ears? And although it seems you want to stick a subsonic projo into the the non-evidence evidence, just about anytime you're shot at from a distance the round hits or misses before the sound of the shot reaches the target area.

Please Robert, a IED isn't a gunshot at a distance, apples and oranges.
 
I know it's blasphemous to say such a thing, but I just don't know.

What I do know is that no one I am aware of, actually heard that shot. The Connallys made that very clear, and they were corroborated by a small army of other witnesses, including the others in the limo. Furthermore, no one reacted to that shot like they did, to the ones at the end.

What is YOUR explanation?
Sure. You have nothing new. You simply think you are a special daffodil.
 
Robert, you're asking us to prove LHO acted alone; which actually means you want us to prove no one else was involved. Hence, you are asking us to prove a negative, which I'd have thought a self described skeptic such as yourself would know is an impossible proposition.

Meanwhile, you hypothesize about silenced weapons and alternate shooting locations without a shred of evidence. And no, your interpretation of what you think you see in the Zapruder film isn't evidence.
 
Robert, you're asking us to prove LHO acted alone; which actually means you want us to prove no one else was involved. Hence, you are asking us to prove a negative, which I'd have thought a self described skeptic such as yourself would know is an impossible proposition.

Meanwhile, you hypothesize about silenced weapons and alternate shooting locations without a shred of evidence. And no, your interpretation of what you think you see in the Zapruder film isn't evidence.

Baloney! ;)
 
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