Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

I can't find the article. It's not online. I did find this one from last July from the same magazine.

Thanks MB, I appreciate the effort.

It looks like a copy of the article is attached to the lawsuit, as well as a copy of the cassation 1st section ruling.

Wonder if the attachments were also provided to the hate sites? Got to be around somewhere, wish I'd seen it.

 

[RoseMontague]

Looking at Mignini's lawsuit again, I think he can't help but respond to a published article that basically calls him out on all his crap.

The article accused him of an "orgy of power", and the suit specifically complains about the use of the word, "orgy".

The suit is pretty interesting in that it complains not just about what was being said, but that the author was especially rude about it.

If MIgnini didn't reply to it, then it would be like publicly admitting the article was correct.

Still wish I could find the original article in case anyone has a link. I couldn't find it.

I can't find the article either. I am not seeing any news reports about the lawsuit either which is very strange if he wanted to publicly announce it.

 

[Diocletus]

In 2007 an administrative law judge in Washington DC was removed from the bench because he filed a lawsuit against a dry cleaner for losing his suit pants. The dry cleaner offered payment for the lost garment, but the judge sued for $67 million damages and kept the case going for years with appeals to higher courts. It showed the judge lacked judicial temperament (or that he suffered mental illness). See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_v._Chung

Do you see parallels with Mignini?

I do indeed. Mignini is just like a soiled pair of trousers.

 

[carbonjam72]

I can't find the article either. I am not seeing any news reports about the lawsuit either which is very strange if he wanted to publicly announce it.

So just filing the suit seems to have a chilling effect. The article gets taken down, and its a warning shot to anyone else thinking of doing the same in criticizing Mignini and the Kercher investigation.

(Although a significant part of the suit, was not just the criticism itself, but the 'aggressiveness' of tone of the language used to criticize Mignini et als. That the journalists and interviewee Maori allegedly went overboard in their descriptions of Mignini as "sadistic" and claiming Amanda and Raf innocent and "guilty of nothing except knowing the victim".)

But even so, its only a temporary measure. Marasca's ruling could, how much is unclear, provide an absolute defense against Mignini's lawsuits going forward.

If Marasca says "Mignini's a dumbass", then he is. It becomes a "judicial truth" IIUC.

There appears to be setting up a cascade of events on Mignini's side cases and possible investigations that are likely to follow from Marasca's ruling.

I wonder how much of this has been discussed internally by relevant judicial authorities behind the scenes? We'd like to think zero, but it doesn't seem to read that way, imo. Guess we'll know soon enough.

 

[Ken Dine]

I agree, Dempseys, Murder in Italy book, captured the chaos of the beginning, better than all of the others. ..pip or pgp.

Her personal association and family connection to Perugia etc...anyway it was unbiased, in her early stages. She kind of saw it through the eyes of an average person and her book is well written in the layout, imo.
I dont know how much she was there, a few trials, in the city a few times, an early blog before the mania took off, and death threats started coming in for the blog writers, or legal charges etc...

As for mistakes, every book misses something, every Judge seems to leave something out or get a detail wrong. The media became a cesspool of mistakes. The Stefonani video ended up helping the defense see all the mistakes made, the computer experts destroyed harddrives, the interrogation was mistakenly not recorded, the Stefonani critical evidence was mistakenly destroyed....etc..et.

When you think back its nice to have that book as a reminder how bizarre it all was. To this day I still cant decide if it was a
1) corrupt prosecution
2) incompetent prosecution
3) both 1 & 2

Correct Answer:

4) corrupt and/or incompetent police & prosecution, compounded by many incompetent judges.

 

[Bill Williams]

So just filing the suit seems to have a chilling effect. The article gets taken down, and its a warning shot to anyone else thinking of doing the same in criticizing Mignini and the Kercher investigation.

(Although a significant part of the suit, was not just the criticism itself, but the 'aggressiveness' of tone of the language used to criticize Mignini et als. That the journalists and interviewee Maori allegedly went overboard in their descriptions of Mignini as "sadistic" and claiming Amanda and Raf innocent and "guilty of nothing except knowing the victim".)

But even so, its only a temporary measure. Marasca's ruling could, how much is unclear, provide an absolute defense against Mignini's lawsuits going forward.

If Marasca says "Mignini's a dumbass", then he is. It becomes a "judicial truth" IIUC.

There appears to be setting up a cascade of events on Mignini's side cases and possible investigations that are likely to follow from Marasca's ruling.

I wonder how much of this has been discussed internally by relevant judicial authorities behind the scenes? We'd like to think zero, but it doesn't seem to read that way, imo. Guess we'll know soon enough.

Whether guilter or innocentisti, the big learning here is that Italy's judiciary is infested with "party" politics, where large groups within self-identify with each other.

It's probably that way in other countries - the USA has federal judges appointed by Democratic presidents or Republican presidents.

The cumbersomely large nature of Cassazione in Italy cannot help divide into "the party of the PMs", as well as other groupings as Hellmann himself observed. (Both Hellmann and Mignini are agreed on one thing - that Hellmann was virtually shunned in Perugia after Oct 2011, the only difference being that Mignini thought Hellmann deserved it!)

There seems to be rumblings of an internecine war within Italy's judiciary, but so far (other than trying to rescue Italy's reputation, or to save face) there do ot seem to be a lot of people lining up behind Mignini - save for a few on-line crazies.

 

[acbytesla]

Looking at Mignini's lawsuit again, I think he can't help but respond to a published article that basically calls him out on all his crap.

The article accused him of an "orgy of power", and the suit specifically complains about the use of the word, "orgy".

The suit is pretty interesting in that it complains not just about what was being said, but that the author was especially rude about it.

If MIgnini didn't reply to it, then it would be like publicly admitting the article was correct.

Maybe, but that is a dangerous game. Replying to it is one thing, filing suit is another. This draws attention AND forces others to deal with the nut job.

 

[Ken Dine]

Guede was obviously a burglar. If you don't believe that then what was the business with the rock in Filomena's room? Who broke into the lawyer's office? Rudy's assertions are as meaningless as his claim to have lived in the US. In the prison diary he admits that he is a liar (but he is telling the truth now). This is supposed to convince us of his sincerity. This works only on very credulous people. He lies about trivial things, so would such a person tell the truth when his freedom is at stake?

One thing he said in the Skype chat I found interesting. He said he didn't want to go to prison but if he had to he preferred to go to an Italian prison. This is not how a person that believed himself to be innocent would talk IMO.

I likewise noticed Guede's prison comment, which seemingly implies that Guede is knowledgeable about Italian prisons? If so, for years 'Guilters' have argued that Guede was never before convicted of any crimes, despite the burglar allegations?

The other thing I've found questionable would be references to Guede's prison diary. Guede just doesn't appear to be the type of guy who would keep a diary, whether in prison or otherwise?

All these leaked prison diaries seem to be plot devices in a corney novella.

However, if you were in prison and kept a diary for some reason, then you'd be a dope to write something unfavorable to your self interests.

 

[carbonjam72]

Maybe, but that is a dangerous game. Replying to it is one thing, filing suit is another. This draws attention AND forces others to deal with the nut job.

I agree with you, but I am getting the sense that things are different in Italy. Its like once the attacks get rolling, the victim expects to be burned at the stake. There's a sense of fear and panic from unfavorable coverage we don't have in the US or even UK. The more I see this institutional paranoia, the more I think Italy is special.

 

[Bill Williams]

Maybe, but that is a dangerous game. Replying to it is one thing, filing suit is another. This draws attention AND forces others to deal with the nut job.

Yet if this ever dies get to a court where Mignini is subject to cross-examination - dine by his enemies! - he has put the specifics of the wrongful prosecution of Knox/Sollecito into play. What a boob.

So rather than his appeals to authority ("look at all the judges who agreed with me!"), or his appeals to speculation ("the break-in was obviously faked; no we didn't do any tests, we just looked at it!"), under cross-examination they'll replay the very film Stefanoni herself had filmed of herself touching the bra-clasp with obviously dirty gloves.

The only question - is Mignini's ego bigger than his instinct for self-preservation?

 

[Ken Dine]

Quite a find and from a source no guilter is allowed to use.

Listen, you know I knew those girls, I knew them both, Meredith and Amanda, but nothing more, you know that. I've been to their house twice, the last time a few days before all this business, but I didn't do anything. I have nothing to do with this business. I wasn't there that evening. If they have found my fingerprints it means I must have left them there before.



Here's CD's version -

“Listen, you know I knew those girls, I knew them both, Meredith and Amanda, but nothing more, you know that,” Rudy told a friend during a long Skype call on Nov. 19, 2007, several weeks after Kercher’s brutal slashing. He was sleeping rough in Germany, where he’d fled after the murder. Even though police had found his bloody handprint on the victim’s pillow, he insisted: “I’ve been to their house twice, the last time a few days before all this business, but I didn’t do anything. I have nothing to do with this business. I wasn’t there that evening. If they have found my fingerprints it means I must have left them there before.

It would seem CD got the translation from PMF, unless you think that two people did identical translations.

I'm impressed with your find and expect that when the amandaknoxcase people get around to it that it will be similar.

I will be particularly interested in the total context.

At this moment I will concede CD's account of this was correct but not that she isn't loose with the truth. Even here she seems to insert the part about his bloody palm print which I didn't see in the Thoughtful translation.

Thanks again for finding the actual source of something, in this case Thoughtful.

A timely mea culpa is good for the soul, so good for you.

However, it's clear from the context that the bold part quoted above was Dempsey's obvious insertion of a known fact into the Skype translation (for a reader's perspective), so clearly Demsey's insertion was not meant to be taken as part of the Skype translation.

The reporter I consider to be the biggest LYING scoundrel in this drama would be Barbie Nadeau, who is an American (traitor). Barbie Nadeau lives part of the time in the U.S., I think in Idaho, which borders Amanda's state of Washington.

She probably won't do it, but I hope Amanda sues Vogt for every penny she has.

I would also like to see Peter Quennell & Peggy Ganong sued over their mucho untrue libelous material published in their idiotic crusades against Amanda. Peggy Ganong lives only a few blocks away from Amanda in Seattle, so I never understood how a sane person could do such a thing to a neighbor's kid?

In America the TRUTH is the ultimate defense in a libel or slander lawsuit, and none of these people can fall back on the truth. Of course, Amanda (at no fault of her own) is a limited public figure, which would make it more difficult for her to sue these characters, but not impossible.

 

[RoseMontague]

I can't find the article either. I am not seeing any news reports about the lawsuit either which is very strange if he wanted to publicly announce it.

So just filing the suit seems to have a chilling effect. The article gets taken down, and its a warning shot to anyone else thinking of doing the same in criticizing Mignini and the Kercher investigation.

(Although a significant part of the suit, was not just the criticism itself, but the 'aggressiveness' of tone of the language used to criticize Mignini et als. That the journalists and interviewee Maori allegedly went overboard in their descriptions of Mignini as "sadistic" and claiming Amanda and Raf innocent and "guilty of nothing except knowing the victim".)

But even so, its only a temporary measure. Marasca's ruling could, how much is unclear, provide an absolute defense against Mignini's lawsuits going forward.

If Marasca says "Mignini's a dumbass", then he is. It becomes a "judicial truth" IIUC.

There appears to be setting up a cascade of events on Mignini's side cases and possible investigations that are likely to follow from Marasca's ruling.

I wonder how much of this has been discussed internally by relevant judicial authorities behind the scenes? We'd like to think zero, but it doesn't seem to read that way, imo. Guess we'll know soon enough.

Or, it may not have been filed at all.

 

[carbonjam72]

Maybe, but that is a dangerous game. Replying to it is one thing, filing suit is another. This draws attention AND forces others to deal with the nut job.

Just replying here - but I saw a post of TJMK today as follows - it's a newsflash from stalker central, courtesy of PQ hisself -

"Breaking news. Promised deadline has now passed for release of Fifth Chambers sentencing report. Article 628 is possible main cause of the delay. This is unprecedented. Its contravention may result in technical challenge though this conjectured as more definitive: a snowballing OJ Simpson type process leaving one true narrative standing in Italy & US via numerous legal initiatives like this one."

Where the bolded phrase one links to the new suit by Mignini we've been discussing.

I'm not sure I can tell what PQ even means in the highlight, but he seems like he's cracking under the strain of the acquittal report coming out, and his cognitive dissonance is on full display.

His posts include unbelievably creepy references to "strains in his chest" upon visiting Meredith's grave (Yowza!) and equally nutty stalking behavior, is found in his description of having attended Meredtih's funeral. (we're talking crypt-keeper creepy here)

What I just saw on twitter, is that John Kercher (not sure about Jr or senior - correction /Brother), has just "un-followed" HarryRag and ManFromAtlan.

... ‏@Annella 7h7 hours ago
Awwww....#Merediths brother John has UNFOLLOWED @harryrag and #manfromatlan. What could have prompted that I wonder? lol #amandaknox

So maybe some rationality or at least skepticism is sneaking into the Kerchers' thinking, over the prosecution's case against Amanda and Raf, and the tribe of hate fueled circus geeks that inhabit those dark corners.

Seems like the guilter merry-go-round of hate is flying apart from its moorings at the prospect of this final acquittal report.

I know its wrong to look, and definitely wrong to gloat. But I can't help thinking this is a fascinating study in the unraveling of a cult group, where their "beliefs conflict" with reality becomes too much for most to hold on to.

Seems like the Kerchers are less wedded to the belief in guilt, then the guilter cult denizens themselves.

Definitely feels like the air is fizzllng out of their balloon.

 

[carbonjam72]

Or, it may not have been filed at all.

Good point. How would we know?

 

[Dougm]

OK. My question then is why did Rudi leave Perugia without these two forms of ID?

• Did he as a matter of habit not carry his ID's in his wallet?
• Did he remove his ID's from his wallet after the murder because he had to wash his wallet?
• Did he leave his wallet behind when he left for Germany?

Maybe, if he was stopped by authorities, he didn't want them to know his real identity.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Bill Williams]

So maybe some rationality or at least skepticism is sneaking into the Kerchers' thinking, over the prosecution's case against Amanda and Raf, and the tribe of hate fueled circus geeks that inhabit those dark corners.

Seems like the guilter merry-go-round of hate is flying apart from its moorings at the prospect of this final acquittal report.

I know its wrong to look, and definitely wrong to gloat. But I can't help thinking this is a fascinating study in the unraveling of a cult group, where their "beliefs conflict" with reality becomes too much for most to hold on to.

Seems like the Kerchers are less wedded to the belief in guilt, then the guilter cult denizens themselves.
Definitely feels like the air is fizzllng out of their balloon.

Who really knows what "the Kerchers" believe? Perhaps there are as many beliefs in the family as there are members.

The horrible thing for them is that the agonizingly slow, now they're guilty now they're not process must have been a unique hell for them. That they've moved from this (regardless of belief on the core issue of whodunit) is perhaps the best news of all. Not many people who suffered as they have get to that stage. If they've managed to move on, that's the best news of this whole thing. And - it is truly over, as even their lawyer Maresca said.

It's clear that Italy is not going to, and hasn't represent(ed) their interests well. For mercy's sake, it's been 7 1/2 years. The saddest thing after all this is to move on, but it's a necessity.

 

[carbonjam72]

Who really knows what "the Kerchers" believe? Perhaps there are as many beliefs in the family as there are members.

The horrible thing for them is that the agonizingly slow, now they're guilty now they're not process must have been a unique hell for them. That they've moved from this (regardless of belief on the core issue of whodunit) is perhaps the best news of all. Not many people who suffered as they have get to that stage. If they've managed to move on, that's the best news of this whole thing. And - it is truly over, as even their lawyer Maresca said.

It's clear that Italy is not going to, and hasn't represent(ed) their interests well. For mercy's sake, it's been 7 1/2 years. The saddest thing after all this is to move on, but it's a necessity.

I think Italy actually did a pretty good job of apprehending the guilty party, Rudy Guede. They were able to identify him, apparently resulting from Bonassi Nov 2/3/4 statements of Guede leaving a turd in the toilet, by canvassing friends until it led them to ID Rudy, and match his identity card palm print to the murder scene. All of that was good.

Without Mignini, things might have been ok. But some credit has to go to Giobbi too. I wonder if they are both above official reproach at this point.

 

[RWVBWL]

This 55 pages of Skype call transcript is different to what's on the audio. We just don't have it translated.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Rudy-Guede-Skype-Call-Transcript-OCR.pdf

ETA: And that 55 pages is different to what's on Ergon's fake wiki. So it's a third part of a 3 hour conversation.

Also I don't believe the Skype Call was entered into evidence and I saw Maresca object to it being admitted in the defense motions debate on Oct 9, 2009. Only the chat was admitted and you see it quoted in the Hellmann Report.

Now this is interesting!

55 pages of an un-translated conversation with Rudy Guede,
who, (talking by computer with 1 of his best friends),
unbeknownst to him, had turned on him and was inside The Questura,
working hand+hand with the police, to bring his friend to safety from those German Prisons,
err, justice in Italy.

A 3 Hour Conversation!
Without his lawyer, who was popular with local Perugian law enforcement, present,
nor even PM Mignini there!

Or was The PM there, watchin' all along?
IIRC, didn't Giacomo did take the cops to Rudy flat, the day before the looong Skype call?

Surely Giacomo was fed questions by the police to ask of "poor Rudy", right?

It appears that Guede was lying to his friend when they 1st started chatting.
Yet soon he got into the gist of his "date tale",
heck is was good enough to convince a guy like Grinder
that it might even have been possible.

Question:
Who talks with a friend,
in public on a computer,
when on the run for murder,
for 3 hours?

Listenin' to Guede talk,
he seems high on something,
not drunk + inebriated like I am now after workin' many, many hours on photographs.

The dude is chattin' up a storm, for 3 hours!
Was Rudy Guede tested for any drugs
after being arrested, imprisoned like Raffaele and Amanda were.*
(Amanda and Raff had nothing to ID when they were drug tested.)
If so, what were the results of Rudy's drug tests?

I find it odd that Rudy Guede seems not even worried about the cops comin' into an Internet café
and busting him anytime soon as he chatted with Giacomo.

Weird to is that the Italian Police did not immediately call German Police
and try and nab Rudy as Giacomo conversed with him for 3 hours. Did they even try?

Couldn't the Postal Police have made a few calls
and tracked down the ISP # immediately of the Internet café in Dusseldorf
were Guede was and had him arrested then?

A 3 Hour Chat.
Hmmmm.

I look forward to reading more this chat,
in English,
someday...
RW


(*) - I wonder what the results of Lumumba's drug tests were?

Surely he too had drug tests done, right?
Or did the police not do this, like they apparently did not even seal off his apartment nor test collect and test his knives, even though Amanda had confusedly told them her Boss had raped and killed her friend and room mate,
Meredith.

 

[RWVBWL]

Now I know that Grinder
luvs talkin' smack about the True Crime writers who covered this case we discuss.

But hey,
if I had never bought and read Barbie Nadeau's book Angel Face,
The True Story of Student Killer Amanda Knox,
well how would I have ever known that the Judge who convicted Rudy Guede,
liked to have fun by goin' out on the local town at night and after sending "poor Rudy" to prison,
even partied with Rudy's lawyer Walter Biscotti at his 50th B-Day Party at the club, Red Zone?

Heck, from what it reads,
Judge Micheli was even tapping his foot to the music as Birthday Boy Walter, Rudy's lawyer,
playin' lead guitar live onstage that night, doin' a cover of Deep Purple's "Smoke on the Water"...
Gotta luv them True Crime Books, right?



But I still do not understand that discount of, what was it, 6 years reduced
that "poor Rudy" got off of his prison sentence for raping and murdering Miss Meredith Kercher.
Which PM Mignini did not, IIRC, even Appeal!?!

 

[carbonjam72]

Now I know that Grinder
luvs talkin' smack about the True Crime writers who covered this case we discuss.

But hey,
if I had never bought and read Barbie Nadeau's book Angel Face,
The True Story of Student Killer Amanda Knox,
well how would I have ever known that the Judge who convicted Rudy Guede,
liked to have fun by goin' out on the local town at night and after sending "poor Rudy" to prison,
even partied with Rudy's lawyer Walter Biscotti at his 50th B-Day Party at the club, Red Zone?

Heck, from what it reads,
Judge Micheli was even tapping his foot to the music as Birthday Boy Walter, Rudy's lawyer,
playin' lead guitar live onstage that night, doin' a cover of Deep Purple's "Smoke on the Water"...
Gotta luv them True Crime Books, right?



But I still do not understand that discount of, what was it, 6 years reduced
that "poor Rudy" got off of his prison sentence for raping and murdering Miss Meredith Kercher.
Which PM Mignini did not, IIRC, even Appeal!?!

Great avatar pic. And great anecdote from Barbie. This issue came up a few months ago I think, and Mach nearly blew a gasket trying to explain. Here's what I gathered -

The highest sentence you can get in Italy is "life". But a "Life sentence means the most you can serve is 30 years.

You could get a 30 year sentence, but that's still not considered the equivalent of a "life" sentence.

A "Fast Track" trial, where the defendant concedes the evidence put forward by the prosecutor, isn't the same as "pleading guilty". But your rights to challenge evidence looks like its more limited, and the trial moves more quickly. The compensation to defendants, is that they get a 1/3rd discount off of their sentence.

If you got sentenced to "30 years" in a fast track process, you would get 1/3 off, and wind up with a "20 year" sentence.

However, if you got a "Life" sentence in a fast track proceeding, your sentence would only be "reduced from Life" to "30 years". (The fact that you can only serve 30 years for a life sentence isn't relevant to the calculation).

So Rudy's original fast track reduction would have been 'Life' to "30 years", technically the same amount of time, but the sentence is considered different nevertheless.

At Rudy's appeal, Rudy asked for mitigation, and he received it. This is where I'm not sure how it worked, but Rudy's sentence went from being "Life" to a 30 year sentence with mitigation, and the mitigation brought Rudy's sentence down to 24 years.

So they applied a "fast track discount" to Rudy's 24 years, and that left Rudy with a 16 year sentence (I'm not dividing 24 by 3 for you).

The extraordinary part about all this, is that Mignini asked for a got a life sentence for Rudy in his fast track trial before Judge Micheli. But at the appeal, Mignini, IIUC, didn't object to Rudy getting mitigation because Mignini believed Rudy had shown remorse (by cooperating with his prosecution of Amanda and Raf would be my guess, but I'm not sure what Mignini's reason was for taking this position in regard to Rudy).

So guilters like to use the math and say Rudy just got the usual discount for taking a fast track trial, but that's really not true. Mignini needed to sign off at Rudy's appeal, on the mitigation that busted Rudy's sentence down from "Life" to "not life" (30 years, and even then reduced to 24 years for mitigation for youth, 1st time offender, remorse??) for the fast track math discount to kick in.

So Mignini went out for a "Life sentence" for all defendants at the first trial levels. But at Rudy's appeal, Mignini did Rudy a solid by going along with the leniency in sentencing. I'd say its obvious Rudy got a sweetheart deal after he agreed to help convict Amanda and Raf. That's why I think Rudy's fast track discount discount should be revoked, cause otherwise he profits from giving false testimony about that night.