South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[PursuedByABear]

My problem with this whole thing is not that the old views are going away. I don't have any objection to the fact that people are seeing the ante-bellum South for what it was, and maybe feeling a little bit awkward supporting the flag that was the symbol of those days. My problem is that the victors in this social battle, i.e. the ones who are staunchly opposed to all things Confederate, in both reality and symbolism, can't resist dancing on the graves of the vanquished. As is so often the case, when victory is in sight, it isn't enough to note that it has been achieved. They have to "spike the ball" in a sense. It's not enough to get the flag off the statehouse grounds, which will undoubtedly happen, they have to go after the keychains and coffee cups, too.

Speaking as an outsider, what you don't get is how a lot of the world thinks the same way about this as you would think of a guy with a Nazi swastika keychain. It's not a "Yeah, he's not actually killing Jews, so let's let him have this one" kind of thing, it's more a "If you WANT that then you have no idea what all this was about!", kind of thing.

 

[jimbob]

Speaking as an outsider, what you don't get is how a lot of the world thinks the same way about this as you would think of a guy with a Nazi swastika keychain. It's not a "Yeah, he's not actually killing Jews, so let's let him have this one" kind of thing, it's more a "If you WANT that then you have no idea what all this was about!", kind of thing.

Bingo.

If you don't want to be associated with racist bigots then don't use the battle flag of the most notorious racist bigots in the history of your country.

I have heard that the flag hadn't been popular for about 100-years until the 1961 centenary and then became adopted enthusiastically by people, which would have to be in context of the Civil Rights movement.

As an outsider, is this true? If so it is even more indicative of the intention.

 

[jimbob]

Speaking as an outsider, what you don't get is how a lot of the world thinks the same way about this as you would think of a guy with a Nazi swastika keychain. It's not a "Yeah, he's not actually killing Jews, so let's let him have this one" kind of thing, it's more a "If you WANT that then you have no idea what all this was about!", kind of thing.

Back to *that* statue:

Here is a photo of it in context that I found on flickr

Wow. by Wiggishly smooth, on Flickr

I think it is perfectly clear what those flags mean in this photo.

According to wiki:

Kershaw sculpted an equestrian monument to Nathan Bedford Forrest, the Confederate Army general and Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, which was unveiled to the public in July 1998.[3] The 25-foot-high[2] statue was constructed on private land facing Interstate 65. It was accompanied by an array of 13 Confederate battle flags and was lit up at night.[4] Kershaw justified the memorial by saying, "Somebody needs to say a good word for slavery".[5] Kershaw also created a similarly large statue of Joan of Arc

 

[Mumbles]

Y'all took too long.

 

[Mumbles]

Bingo.

If you don't want to be associated with racist bigots then don't use the battle flag of the most notorious racist bigots in the history of your country.

I have heard that the flag hadn't been popular for about 100-years until the 1961 centenary and then became adopted enthusiastically by people, which would have to be in context of the Civil Rights movement.

As an outsider, is this true? If so it is even more indicative of the intention.

Yes, that is basically true. It's sort of like schools named after Confederate Generals, for the most part, it was a sign of anger at integration.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Wow, I've never seen so many willing to throw up their hands and give up their freedoms so willingly. Disgusting. It looks as if many here have decided to let the press do their thinking for them. Is being politically correct really worth your freedoms? Don't you realize if you limit unpopular speech in this Country then freedom of speech is no longer a right?

I'll bet many of you think guns are bad as well. Perhaps we should get rid of those too? That's the media pushing, will you push back or throw up your hands yet again? So, let's do away with freedom of speech and the right to bear arms, right? How about privacy? We've already given that one away. The NSA can listen to every word you say over the phone and can also read your emails. Nice huh. Oh, of course it's better to give up some freedoms for security......What will you give away next?
Chris B.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Wow, I've never seen so many willing to throw up their hands and give up their freedoms so willingly. Disgusting. It looks as if many here have decided to let the press do their thinking for them. Is being politically correct really worth your freedoms? Don't you realize if you limit unpopular speech in this Country then freedom of speech is no longer a right?

I'll bet many of you think guns are bad as well. Perhaps we should get rid of those too? That's the media pushing, will you push back or throw up your hands yet again? So, let's do away with freedom of speech and the right to bear arms, right? How about privacy? We've already given that one away. The NSA can listen to every word you say over the phone and can also read your emails. Nice huh. Oh, of course it's better to give up some freedoms for security......What will you give away next?
Chris B.

Reading posts like this one

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Who gave up what freedom? People are still free to fly the Battle Flag, many have just decided they don't want to anymore, and several companies decided they don't want to sell it anymore. Using your freedom to disagree with someone is not the same as giving it up.

 

[Mumbles]

Wow, I've never seen so many willing to throw up their hands and give up their freedoms so willingly. Disgusting. It looks as if many here have decided to let the press do their thinking for them. Is being politically correct really worth your freedoms? Don't you realize if you limit unpopular speech in this Country then freedom of speech is no longer a right?

I never wanted to fly that stupid flag to begin with. And yet again, you're still free to fly it, tattoo it, or whatever.

But there's also freedom of association, and I refuse to associate with anyone using that stupid flag as anything but a relic. And again, I will work to have it taken down if it's in any place where it's venerated.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Who gave up what freedom? People are still free to fly the Battle Flag, many have just decided they don't want to anymore, and several companies decided they don't want to sell it anymore. Using your freedom to disagree with someone is not the same as giving it up.

conservatives often confuse government endorsement of their views with freedom of speech.

 

[lobosrul]

I'll bet many of you think guns are bad as well. Perhaps we should get rid of those too? That's the media pushing, will you push back or throw up your hands yet again? So, let's do away with freedom of speech and the right to bear arms, right? How about privacy? We've already given that one away. The NSA can listen to every word you say over the phone and can also read your emails. Nice huh. Oh, of course it's better to give up some freedoms for security......What will you give away next?
Chris B.

Please look into my post history. The 2nd Amendment and a state capital flying the flag of a rebellion is not remotely the same thing.

 

[Mumbles]

Please look into my post history. The 2nd Amendment and a state capital flying the flag of a rebellion is not remotely the same thing.

Recall when the Black Panther party took guns to the California Capitol...

 

[lobosrul]

Recall when the Black Panther party took guns to the California Capitol...

Well I can google it, can't recall it though since it happened years before i was born

 

[jimbob]

Yes, that is basically true. It's sort of like schools named after Confederate Generals, for the most part, it was a sign of anger at integration.

I wonder how the demographics have changed since then. It would be amusing to get some renamed after proper heroes of the civil war,

Mary Bowser looks like a prime candidate: being brave, Southern, effective from what is known, and not only a woman, but black.

 

[Ladewig]

Wow, I've never seen so many willing to throw up their hands and give up their freedoms so willingly. Disgusting. It looks as if many here have decided to let the press do their thinking for them. Is being politically correct really worth your freedoms? Don't you realize if you limit unpopular speech in this Country then freedom of speech is no longer a right?

What freedom have I given up?

As for unpopular speech, I fully support the rights of groups like Westboro Baptist Church, the KKK, and the Illinois Nazis. I even support their receiving police protection for their unpopular speech.

Please explain what freedom I have given up in supporting the removal of the Confederate flag from state buildings?

 

[dudalb]

Please look into my post history. The 2nd Amendment and a state capital flying the flag of a rebellion is not remotely the same thing.

Emphasis on "state capital". I have not seen anybody here saying that an invidual should not be allowed to fly the Confederate flag on his won property.

 

[dudalb]

Recall when the Black Panther party took guns to the California Capitol...

Unloaded guns,BTW, It was a piece of street theater. A couple of shotguns and a couple of Army Surplus Garands. Pure street theater.

 

[dudalb]

And Amazon is, as usual, being stupid and heavy handed in implementation of it's no Confederate flags rules. A number of wargames..both computer and board...have been taken down because their covers have the Confederate Battle flags. Stupid, context is everything.
I can understand Amazon not wanting to sell the flag itself, but they will have to eliminate quite a few items from their Civil War Books selection if they follow this indiscriminate policy.

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

conservatives often confuse government endorsement of their views with freedom of speech.

they define freedom as "what I want, right now, and to hell with anybody else!" the same way 3 year olds define it.

 

[jimbob]

Who gave up what freedom? People are still free to fly the Battle Flag, many have just decided they don't want to anymore, and several companies decided they don't want to sell it anymore. Using your freedom to disagree with someone is not the same as giving it up.

conservatives often confuse government endorsement of their views with freedom of speech.

I think this is the answer:

Don't worry. People can still put the flag on their personal property. This the racists can fly it on their own.

But it's not the same: the one thing that true rebels want is official endorsement by the government.