Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[MDDVS]

Is this likely? When was the last time before she was killed that Meredith and Giacomo could have had sex? If they were using condoms, wouldn't the chances of sperm being deposited be very low - even in small quantity?

Many people remove the condom just before ejaculation.

 

[Bill Williams]

This is Mignini's fantasy reconstruction in his notes for pre-trial closing arguments.



and on p51 he says:

Mignini's sexual fantasy contradicts itself. The whole point of Mignini's three attacker scenario is that the victim is immobilized, so as not being able to defend herself, as well as to explain the relative lack of defensive injuries.

Yet...... Mignini postulates:

che evidenzia un ulteriore profilo di possibile tentativo di violenza sessuale, rimasto peraltro interrotto (anche perché, non sono assolutamente emersi fattori che avrebbero potuto comportare un tale fenomeno).

which shows a further profile of possible attempted sexual assault, was also stopped (because, I'm not totally emerged factors that could cause such a phenomenon).​

This is a giant weakness in the Italian system where the PM is allowed to fantasize in court like this, and not have the judge intervene.

 

[MichaelB]

You can see the body on the floor in this preview of a 2013 German documentary about the case.

http://www.focus.de/focustv/faszina...er-neue-prozess-um-amanda-knox_vid_36840.html

It certainly puts things in perspective. Don't look if can't stomach it....it's graphic.

 

[Grinder]

You can see the body on the floor in this preview of a 2013 German documentary about the case.

http://www.focus.de/focustv/faszina...er-neue-prozess-um-amanda-knox_vid_36840.html

It certainly puts things in perspective. Don't look if can't stomach it....it's graphic.

They mention the sex game gone bad. I've always thought "sex game" is stranger than "rite", "Halloween rite" or even "Satanic rite". What is a sex game and how does it go wrong?

 

[Grinder]

Over at the sad dark side people have complained and still do about the references to Gill and Hampikian being used by the courts when they didn't testify, yet not a peep about Mignini incredulously using the Daily Mail story on the noise ticket.

No problem with Curatolo, Quintavalle or Nara but scientists...

 

[Bill Williams]

They mention the sex game gone bad. I've always thought "sex game" is stranger than "rite", "Halloween rite" or even "Satanic rite". What is a sex game and how does it go wrong?

Whatever it was, whatever Mignini meant it to be, the first two courts, including Massei's, paid it no mind. What's incredible is that here 6 years after even the Massei trial, trash authors are still putting stuff on to Amazon with this sort of thing as their foundation.

The 2013 ISC inexplicably breathed life back into it, but what did Crini and Nencini do with it in the fall in Florence? Both ignored it, yet once again trash authors make it the bedrock of their continuing slander.

I'll never forget the look on Piers Morgan's face when he had Gloria Allred and Jeffery Toobin on following the 2013 ISC reversal of acquittals. Morgan is friend to John Kercher, and Morgan seemed incensed that his friend's daughter had participated, before it went wrong.

 

[Kauffer]

They mention the sex game gone bad. I've always thought "sex game" is stranger than "rite", "Halloween rite" or even "Satanic rite". What is a sex game and how does it go wrong?

Asphyxia would come into that category. Remember Michael Hutchence? His death was due to auto-asphyxia for sexual pleasure - apparently the orgasm is enhanced. Oddly perhaps, there is a "sub-category" of SM sex involving knife play and so-called "fear play", including actual cutting. The Kercher murder involved nothing like this - there is clear intent.

 

[RWVBWL]

Still Don't See It?

While I accept that the stain has a shoe print in it, I can't see it myself.

Hi Grinder,
Have a look at this pic below,
it shows better the wet semen imprint from the shoe rings of Rudy's left Nike:

But there are only shoe rings,
no globs of semen, as seen below.


Now have a look at this pic,
which better shows the detail of the semen stain on the pillowcase edge,
found between Miss Kercher's legs and below her naked genitalia:

Rudy apparently did not step in this stain,
if it was wet and from the night Meredith was raped and murdered.,
for there are no shoe rings in either of the 2 small stains,
and you can see the strand connecting them.


Look at the shoe imprint in the middle of this pic,
it shows where Rudy left the wet semen stain:

and also where the pillow case edge semen stain is,
+ along with Rudy's other shoe ring imprints,
which had blood on them.


Now watch the short video cliop that MichaelB posted,
http://www.focus.de/focustv/faszina...er-neue-prozess-um-amanda-knox_vid_36840.html
it shows the pillow's placement lying underneath Miss Kercher for a few seconds.

It seems Meredith was barely alive and moved a little bit
or Rudy moved her himself a little, for it possibly appears that she is sorta covering the wet semen stain,
which is on her left side.

The wet semen stain was stepped in and left when Rudy was in Meredith's bedroom that night.
It probably is not from the semen on the edge of the pillowcase,
but from somewhere nearby with the other globs of ejaculate,
possibly on Rudy's own pants...


Did Rudy step in and leave the wet semen stain
Before or After he stepped in and left the bloody shoe imprints,
trying to save Meredith(?),
who knows?

Grinder,
Can you see the wet semen shoeprint stain now?
Do you think that they are Rudy's or someone else's?

Poor, Poor Meredith.

 

[Grinder]

Hi Grinder,

Grinder,
Can you see the wet semen shoeprint stain now?
Do you think that they are Rudy's or someone else's?

Poor, Poor Meredith.

I think I see what you say is there. What I don't get is why the defense didn't say anything about the dating factor of the shoe print.

I tried to find Vinci testimony or report on this to no avail.

Regardless of the evidence found it remains very odd that Rud (just for you) didn't have a story to explain it.

 

[carbonjam72]

I think I see what you say is there. What I don't get is why the defense didn't say anything about the dating factor of the shoe print.

I tried to find Vinci testimony or report on this to no avail.

Regardless of the evidence found it remains very odd that Rud (just for you) didn't have a story to explain it.

Well on the bright side, Rudy has accepted responsibility for, and even apologized to his adoptive family, for not getting help for Meredith after that strange man that hurt her ran away and left Rudy holding the bag.

I'm sure the family was glad to hear Rudy accepting responsibility for his actions.

 

[Methos]

I think I see what you say is there. What I don't get is why the defense didn't say anything about the dating factor of the shoe print.

I tried to find Vinci testimony or report on this to no avail.
Regardless of the evidence found it remains very odd that Rud (just for you) didn't have a story to explain it.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Professor-Vinci-Pillow-Analysis-Italian.pdf
Translation:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

 

[Dougm]

I think I see what you say is there. What I don't get is why the defense didn't say anything about the dating factor of the shoe print.

I tried to find Vinci testimony or report on this to no avail.

Regardless of the evidence found it remains very odd that Rud (just for you) didn't have a story to explain it.

I don't see what story he could have told that could have explained his semen, if that is what it was, being found where it was found. He did the best he could fitting the story to the evidence he expected them to find, but I don't see how he could provide any believable story on that one.

I realize there have been a couple of attempts here at what he could have said, but would those stories really have worked? Of course, the "I was on the toilet and someone came in and killed her" was pretty lame too, but has a better chance of being believed than "I finished on Meredith's pillow while she was out of the room, but no, I did not kill her".

A couple of other thoughts:

* Is it absolutely confirmed the substance was semen? Right now, I don't recall anyone confirming that as a fact (although I certainly see why it would be speculated to be that)
* I agree it is odd that Rudy, had he left semen, would have said he didn't, because that could be easily dis-proven. I have speculated that something set Rudy off into a rage, perhaps being humiliated my Meredith's rejection or ??? I just wonder if the killing could have taken place while Rudy was in an out of control emotional state, and he did not remember everything that happened exactly, particularly what happened during the actual attack. Seems odd, I know, but ???

Or, he's telling the truth about not ejaculating, and it's either not semen, or not his. He still killed her, BARD.

 

[Grinder]

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Professor-Vinci-Pillow-Analysis-Italian.pdf
Translation:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

Thanks. I had seen this but I can't find his report on the stain and the fact that the stain they asked to be tested had a shoe print.

I'm not doubting anybody but I can't believe that the defense had the proof that the stain was left by Rudi's shoe and didn't scream about Massei denying the test and again with Hellmann.

ETA - The Semen Stain

In addition to the swabs collected by the pathologist, Dr. Lalli, there was a semen stain directly between the victim’s legs on the pillow Guede positioned her body on. The stain was only discovered by defense expert Professor Vinci when he was finally able to examine the pillowcase May 25th, 2009. Incredibly, the prosecution and Kercher family attorney, Francesco Maresca, resisted requests to test the semen stain and no court has allowed it to be tested. As with the sperm fraction samples from Dr. Lalli’s swabs, the identity of the semen stain donor remains unverified by any disclosed genetic testing.

 

[Grinder]

I don't see what story he could have told that could have explained his semen, if that is what it was, being found where it was found. He did the best he could fitting the story to the evidence he expected them to find, but I don't see how he could provide any believable story on that one.

"Giacomo you know we just fooled around but she was very hot and I did have a little, you know, ejaculation. My pants were open and she was touching me. "

I realize there have been a couple of attempts here at what he could have said, but would those stories really have worked? Of course, the "I was on the toilet and someone came in and killed her" was pretty lame too, but has a better chance of being believed than "I finished on Meredith's pillow while she was out of the room, but no, I did not kill her".

He could have said he came and adjusted himself to be sure it didn't show through his pants.

The point is that the media said they found "sperm" and Rudi made a point of denying it outright. Why not ignore it or say he was turned on and maybe came or something?

* Is it absolutely confirmed the substance was semen? Right now, I don't recall anyone confirming that as a fact (although I certainly see why it would be speculated to be that)

It doesn't matter as he thought they had found "sperm". Giacomo doesn't disagree.

* I agree it is odd that Rudy, had he left semen, would have said he didn't, because that could be easily dis-proven. I have speculated that something set Rudy off into a rage, perhaps being humiliated my Meredith's rejection or ??? I just wonder if the killing could have taken place while Rudy was in an out of control emotional state, and he did not remember everything that happened exactly, particularly what happened during the actual attack. Seems odd, I know, but ???

Yes that's possible but even then reading the accounts that it was found would lead him to account for it IMO.

Or, he's telling the truth about not ejaculating, and it's either not semen, or not his. He still killed her, BARD.

He was there beyond the shadow of a doubt. If there was another "gang" member there, then that person could have wielded the knife. It is possible for me that the crack ICSI missed his evidence or discarded it because it complicated their case.

What was Koko doing there?

 

[Kauffer]

I don't see what story he could have told that could have explained his semen, if that is what it was, being found where it was found. He did the best he could fitting the story to the evidence he expected them to find, but I don't see how he could provide any believable story on that one.

I realize there have been a couple of attempts here at what he could have said, but would those stories really have worked? Of course, the "I was on the toilet and someone came in and killed her" was pretty lame too, but has a better chance of being believed than "I finished on Meredith's pillow while she was out of the room, but no, I did not kill her".

A couple of other thoughts:

* Is it absolutely confirmed the substance was semen? Right now, I don't recall anyone confirming that as a fact (although I certainly see why it would be speculated to be that)
* I agree it is odd that Rudy, had he left semen, would have said he didn't, because that could be easily dis-proven. I have speculated that something set Rudy off into a rage, perhaps being humiliated my Meredith's rejection or ??? I just wonder if the killing could have taken place while Rudy was in an out of control emotional state, and he did not remember everything that happened exactly, particularly what happened during the actual attack. Seems odd, I know, but ???

Or, he's telling the truth about not ejaculating, and it's either not semen, or not his. He still killed her, BARD.

It's an interesting point. Whilst Vinci's analysis of the pooling effect of the substance leading to a conclusion that it is separate "shots" of ejaculate seems compelling, what else could it feasibly be? A cosmetic or toiletry perhaps? A face or body cream? Something like that? Semen is highly suggested.

 

[Planigale]

I don't see what story he could have told that could have explained his semen, if that is what it was, being found where it was found. He did the best he could fitting the story to the evidence he expected them to find, but I don't see how he could provide any believable story on that one.

I realize there have been a couple of attempts here at what he could have said, but would those stories really have worked? Of course, the "I was on the toilet and someone came in and killed her" was pretty lame too, but has a better chance of being believed than "I finished on Meredith's pillow while she was out of the room, but no, I did not kill her".

A couple of other thoughts:

* Is it absolutely confirmed the substance was semen? Right now, I don't recall anyone confirming that as a fact (although I certainly see why it would be speculated to be that)
* I agree it is odd that Rudy, had he left semen, would have said he didn't, because that could be easily dis-proven. I have speculated that something set Rudy off into a rage, perhaps being humiliated my Meredith's rejection or ??? I just wonder if the killing could have taken place while Rudy was in an out of control emotional state, and he did not remember everything that happened exactly, particularly what happened during the actual attack. Seems odd, I know, but ???

Or, he's telling the truth about not ejaculating, and it's either not semen, or not his. He still killed her, BARD.

No semen not confirmed. Semen fluoresces under UV light, this is what the crime light photos show. This is a bit like the Luminol issue, other things fluoresce, this is a presumptive test. One would follow up with an ELISA base test for a semen (fairly) specific protein such as PSA or acid phosphatase.*

To clarify the semen extraction protocol for DNA typing is just to extract the DNA from sperm, it does not test for sperm. The DNA in sperm is densely packaged, the usual extraction methods would yield a low amount of DNA from sperm. This does allow concentration of sperm DNA by extracting and washing off DNA from non sperm cells with a 'gentle' extraction, and then using a more vigorous extraction to get the DNA out of the sperm.

*Of course the best way is to look at the vaginal / anal swabs under a microscope and see sperm. I'm not sure how long sperm would be visible for a spilled sample on cloth.

 

[Grinder]

Though a bit off from my main point could either of you knowledgeable people tell me if Vinci ever maintained that semen had been stepped in?

I had been under the impression that he found the stain and that the defense wanted it tested. The court said no and one of the reasons was that it couldn't be dated.

Obviously if Rudi's shoe print left a stain it could be dated.

 

[Paninaro]

I think I see what you say is there. What I don't get is why the defense didn't say anything about the dating factor of the shoe print.

I tried to find Vinci testimony or report on this to no avail.

Regardless of the evidence found it remains very odd that Rud (just for you) didn't have a story to explain it.

Couldn't it be a thing he didn't want to admit even to himself? A part of his psychological defence? If he ejaculated as Kercher was dying or something similar horrible he could prefare to make up a story for himself and the world where this never happened at all.

 

[Grinder]

Couldn't it be a thing he didn't want to admit even to himself? A part of his physiological defence? If he ejaculated as Kercher was dying or something similar horrible he could prefare to make up a story for himself and the world where this never happened at all.

Yes. I still find it interesting that he covered the murder with pretty wild stories and admitted to having oral sex with a willing Meredith but was adamant that he didn't leave ejaculate behind.

For those that haven't watched the youtube Skype call that might be interesting for you. The German diary as well. These were the accounts before the PLE got to him.

 

[Numbers]

Though a bit off from my main point could either of you knowledgeable people tell me if Vinci ever maintained that semen had been stepped in?

I had been under the impression that he found the stain and that the defense wanted it tested. The court said no and one of the reasons was that it couldn't be dated.

Obviously if Rudi's shoe print left a stain it could be dated.

At: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

Professor Vinci's slide presentation to the court is given with English translations. The final three slides before the end slide (which has text: Thank you for your attention [but in Italian]) has images of the shoe sole partial rings formed by a fluorescent substance that was on the pillow. This is a separate fluorescent stain than the two globules joined by a strand. The fluorescence, IIUC generated by means of illumination filtered at 475 nm (45 nm bandwidth) by the Crimescope lamp, is, as Planigale points out, a presumptive indication of semen. Confirmation that this substance is semen requires a second test, as she indicates, and Vinci did not do that test, possibly because it alters the substance in a way that simply illuminating it does not. He and the defense possibly considered they would need the Court's permission to conduct such a test and/or that it was really the job of the prosecution and police lab.

I don't recall seeing the defense brief requesting that the Court order further testing of the putative semen stain, but my understanding from other reading is that it was requested. Perhaps someone such as MichaelB or DanO with excellent indexing and document resources would be able to point it out.