• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
I suggest that the issue is not whether or not the kids did anything "suspicious", it is whether or not the kids did anything qualitatively MORE suspicious than anyone else - so much so as to justify this case eventually slipping into its.....

...... suspect-centrism.

It is already a matter of record what the "behaviours" were that caused the police to focus on them. All three of those behaviours were trivial. What is relevant is: what behaviours did others do (who also were keyholders, or within one-degree of separation of a key) which could be said to be "suspicious".

For the police to get locked into the staging of the crime-scene so early, combined with their assumption that the climb in through Filomena's window was undoable were the chief reasons why the investigation when so bad so early - and, thus, became unduly suspect-centred on to AK and RS.

I'd suggest to you both that everything within two-degree of separation of Meredith did something suspicious. (Filomena, for instance, swiped her own laptop from behind crime-scene tape, and with her lawyer returned it to the cops later at the Questura.)

Some of the British girls lied about Meredith's drug use, as [FILOMENA?] counselled Amanda to do the same when talking to police.

The missing element in your back-and-forth with each other is suspect-centrism.


I agree with everything you posted, but I made one correction since I believe it was Filomena who had counseled Amanda to not mention their pot smoking to the police?

I don't believe Filomena was involved, but Filomena had the exact same alibi Amanda had, that both spent the night with their boyfriends, and both of their boyfriends lived about 10 minutes away from the cottage. Yet, the police didn't even take DNA samples from Filomena or her boyfriend ...I guess, because Filomena cried at appropriate times and Amanda cried at wrong times?

This may be lengthy, but it's a perfect example of the tunnel vision (confirmation bias and suspect-centrism) that had afflicted the Italian police from the very beginning:

FILOMENA'S GLASS

Filomena testified that the first thing she did upon entering her bedroom was to pick up her laptop, which was lying flat beneath the shattered window with glass on it, which fell off of her laptop onto her strewn clothing as she picked her laptop up.

Not surprising that Filomena may have next noticed some glass atop her strewn clothing, but Filomena wasn't a trained CSI, so did Filomena ever check beneath her clothing for glass?

At some point Filomena left her bedroom to go to Meredith's bedroom door, and once Meredith's body was discovered, everyone (Amanda, Raffaele, Marco, Luca, Filomena & her gal-pal) were told to leave the cottage.

Of course, Filomena did somehow sneak back in to get her laptop, but other than that, supposedly no one else had entered Filomena's bedroom until the police had photographed everything to document the crime scene (around 3:00 pm), and at that time the photos showed no glass atop Filomena's strewn clothing!

Yet, later arriving police claim they saw glass atop Filomena's clothing?

Monica Napoleoni (at Massei, page 103) testified that she saw broken window glass on Filomena's clothing (which was used as proof of a simulated break-in), which would have been impossible for Napoleoni to have actually observed:

Monica Napoleoni, Deputy Commissioner of the State Police, arrived at the Via della Pergola house around 13:30 pm, and colleagues of the postal police gave information about the discovery of the body of a girl. Arriving almost at the same time as the staff from 118, there was a female doctor and a nurse.

In Romanelli's room, she saw the break-in and glass "that had fallen on top of the stuff lying on the floor" (page 226). She approached Meredith’s room with the chief assistant Buratti, who remained at the door as Napoleoni took one step inside the room "while the 118 doctor uncovered the corpse" (page 228, hearing [96] on February 27, 2009).

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/PDF/Massei_Report.pdf


How could later arriving Monica Napoleoni have seen glass atop Filomena's clothing if Filomena had already shook the glass off her clothing, as claimed by Massei?

Without worrying about Monica Napoleoni's obvious LIE (or the psychological factors that causes witnesses to fabricate testimony), Judge Massei explained that the police pictures failing to show the broken glass on top of Filomena's clothing wasn't that important since Filomena had been disturbing the crime scene in her room, and consequently, Massei theorized that Filomena had knocked the glass from atop her clothing before she was ordered out of the cottage:

One last aspect which bears repeating is the presence, noted and checked by several witnesses, of pieces of glass on top of the objects and clothing in Romanelli's room. This circumstance, which also reveals an activity of simulation, although it is not decisive because it does not actually exclude that the phantom burglar first broke the window and then made the mess in the room, was rejected by the Defence of the accused, which showed [POLICE] photographs that did not show glass on top of the clothes and objects scattered around Romanelli's room, and observed that the documentary and crystallisation value of a specific situation as realised [42] through a photo should prevail over witness statements sworn into the record.

This [DEFENSE] claim is not held to be sustainable, since it does not take into account the events and their succession and chronology.

On the subject of the contrast between the testimony and the documents (photographs of Filomena's room that do not show pieces of glass on top of the clothes and objects scattered around), Romanelli's own declarations are significant and decisive. In her questioning of Feb. 7, 2009, she recalled having left her computer in its case "standing up, not lying down" (p. 269), and then, when she returned to the house, she saw that in her own room, the window was broken and "everything was all over the place..." (p. 40)
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/PDF/Massei_Report.pdf


Massei continues his 'EXPERT' analysis of the glass, and it's interesting that Massei describes Filomena as being a "very orderly" gal (in apparent comparison to the slovenly killer witch he was judging):

She [FILOMENA] checked that her jewellery was there, which it was, and she looked for her computer which she saw "from underneath" (p. 40), and continuing to explain, she declared that "I picked up the computer and perceived that in lifting it, I was picking up pieces of glass, in the sense that there was actually glass on top of it" (p. 41)[/B], and she noticed this circumstance so particularly that she added the following comment: "It was really a stupid burglar; not only did he not take anything, the broken glass was actually on top of the things" (p. 41).

As she [FILOMENA] is usually very orderly, the witness also stated that she entered into her own room and searched around to see if anything was missing, and during that search she moved objects, thus changing the position of some pieces of glass. At that moment, however, only the Postal Police officers were present, and they were there to understand why two mobile phones had been found in the garden of a house in via Sperandio; the broken window pane indicated a robbery which seemed entirely independent from the finding of the telephones; thus it seemed perfectly natural and almost automatic for them to enter the room with the broken glass without taking any particular precautions, focusing only on the task of finding out if anything was missing.

Thus, the movement of objects was perfectly natural, as was the progressive modification of the situation in Romanelli's room with respect to the pieces of glass which, having been found and noted on top of objects, were then allowed to fall and moved around during the search which, it can be imagined, Romanelli made with a certain agitation and anxiety due to worry and the strong [43] disturbance that she was feeling.

The photos, however, were only taken later, around 15:00 pm according to what can be inferred from the declarations of the personnel of the scientific section of the Questura of Perugia, Cantagalli and Brocci, when the discovery of Meredith's lifeless body imposed the use of care and circumspection in the necessity of crystallising the situation, avoiding any modification of the scene and acquiring every element which could be useful for the investigation.

Thus, the moments during which the witnesses found glass on top of the objects and the moments during which everything in the house was photographed and thus fixed were different moments. Consequently, the visual and tactile observations of the witnesses and the photographs of the surroundings cannot be judged in parallel, given that they represent different situations at different times.

It is enough to note that inspector Battistelli told everyone to leave the house, not when he saw the broken window in Romanelli's room, but when he realised that there was a corpse in Meredith's room.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/PDF/Massei_Report.pdf


Filomena testified that she had left her laptop on the floor where she found it with glass on top of it, but she recalled it was standing on edge when she left, and it was lying flat on the floor with glass on it when she found it, which probably means her laptop fell over as the rock crashed thru the window, with glass falling on top of it.

Filomena's recollections constantly changed – e.g., shortly after the murder she said she had left her shutters open, then later Filomena testified she had closed her outer shutters, but when confronted with the discrepancy, she reverted back to saying she probably had left them open.

Filomena may have also left some dirty clothes on the floor as she rushed to change clothes for the B-day party?

Too much speculation was based upon Filomena's changing recollections, but either way, Napoleoni had LIED about seeing glass on Filomena's clothes.

The problem with witness recollections, is when were their statements taken?

For example, immediately after the murder the English girls described Amanda and Meredith as friends, but later after reading that Amanda had murdered their friend, the later recollections of the English girlfriends had magically changed and now described Amanda as a witch-on-wheels.

Filomena, the police, and everyone else who would later testify against Amanda, all of their later recollections would likewise be influenced by the salacious media reports about Amanda.
 
I believe it is all disclosed in Filomena's testimony. She asked to enter the cottage after it was declared a crime scene to retrieve her coat and purse from the sopha. She then saw the opportunity and entered her own room to retrieve the laptop. She snuck the laptop out by hiding it under her coat. At the police station the laptop was seen and the police confiscated it there.
 
Last edited:
It was not Sophie AFAIK but if it was it doesn't rise to the "nothing was stolen" response.

If Amanda had asked a cop if she could take her clothes or took them as the cop watched what would be suspicious since she could have taken them before the police arrived unlike Filomena.

Bill the ball is in your court. Prove that she was accused of stealing the laptop. Also explain how the police would have known she took it from the cottage after the "burglary" if the police didn't let her.

There is no doubt that the police should have sealed the room as soon as they found the body. Taking the computer with permission is not tampering with evidence.

Tampering with evidence, or evidence tampering, is an act in which a person alters, conceals, falsifies, or destroys evidence with the intent to interfere with an investigation (usually) by a law-enforcement, governmental, or regulatory authority. It is a criminal offense in many jurisdictions.

She was not "accused of stealing the laptop". The choices are these - either the crime scene was so unsecured that someone was able to take something forensicly connected to the crime, or the police let her take her laptop, so that she, herself, could not be specifically accused of doing something unlawful.

Think through the choices available. Fact is tha Filomena was able to rummage through her room, a crime scene even befor the discovery in Meredith'sroom, and she was able to leave with her laptop after the discovery.

Has she ever been formally accused of a crime? I am unaware of that part. Any of the possibilities one can imagine lead to the most important conclusio - the crime scene was hopelessly compromised.

We can argue about perioheral stuff if you want, but the conclusion which is relevant is that the crime scene outside of Meredith's room was hopelessly compromised.

Remember that the origin of this thread is reasonable, non-suspect-centric suspicion. Let's not move too far from that.
 
Quickly picked a few errors.

Filomena and Amanda had different alibis. There were more people with F than A.

She never said she left them open. She became more sure they were closed over time.

How do you know she snuck into her room?

She didn't shake out all of her clothes.

You should go back and read Bill's old posts because they are almost identical in viewpoint to yours.

May I ask where you have informed yourself about this case?
 
I believe it is all disclosed in Filomena's testimony. She asked to enter the cottage after it was declared a crime scene to retrieve her coat and purse from the sopha. She then saw the opportunity and entered her own room to retrieve the laptop. She snuck the laptop out by hiding it under her coat. At the police station the laptop was seen and the police confiscated it there.

In fairness Filomena (accompanied by lawyer) volunteered the info while surrendering the laptop.
 
Quickly picked a few errors.

Filomena and Amanda had different alibis. There were more people with F than A.

She never said she left them open. She became more sure they were closed over time.

How do you know she snuck into her room?

She didn't shake out all of her clothes.

You should go back and read Bill's old posts because they are almost identical in viewpoint to yours.

May I ask where you have informed yourself about this case?

Whoever this is intended for, the guy sounds like a genius!
 
I believe it is all disclosed in Filomena's testimony. She asked to enter the cottage after it was declared a crime scene to retrieve her coat and purse from the sopha. She then saw the opportunity and entered her own room to retrieve the laptop. She snuck the laptop out by hiding it under her coat. At the police station the laptop was seen and the police confiscated it there.

Don't think so as the story line was that she brought it back to the police with an attorney at her side. IIRC it was the law firm's computer.

Are you saying the police had abandoned the cottage? Could be.

It's been a long time since this came up and it still means little and isn't an indication that Raf's statement wasn't suspicious.
 
The biggest problem with Raff's remark is that to see any guilt in it you must add to it. It's like a Roshach test. It doesn't provide anything really.

I agree, especially since what Raffaele told the police was his interpretation of what Amanda had said in English, and while Raffaele's English was then better than Amanda's Italian, there were many instances of twisting things around to make them appear guilty which were likely caused by poor communication between all parties.

For example, Raffaele had no idea what Filomena's room contained (pre-Guede), so Amanda would have had to evaluate that for Raffaele. After seeing the TV and laptop still there, Amanda may have told Raffaele that, "nothing appears to have been taken."

Raffaele may have innocently construed that to mean, "nothing was taken," which may sound more certain, but it was still essentially what Amanda must have told him.
 
I agree, especially since what Raffaele told the police was his interpretation of what Amanda had said in English, and while Raffaele's English was then better than Amanda's Italian, there were many instances of twisting things around to make them appear guilty which were likely caused by poor communication between all parties.

Was that what he told the police operator?

For example, Raffaele had no idea what Filomena's room contained (pre-Guede), so Amanda would have had to evaluate that for Raffaele. After seeing the TV and laptop still there, Amanda may have told Raffaele that, "nothing appears to have been taken."

What does that have to do with how the police would view the comment?

Raffaele may have innocently construed that to mean, "nothing was taken," which may sound more certain, but it was still essentially what Amanda must have told him.

Yes these rationals have been given for 7 years. Raf may have been stoned out of his mind and not responsible for his choice of words.

The police reviewed the response and found it suspicious and they were reasonable to be suspicious. I would appear you are among those can only look at the case as if the kids are innocent and the police should have known that from day one.

Suspicious remarks or actions need not be evidence of guilt.

ETA - nothing needed to be added to it. Saying nothing was stolen when he couldn't know it and the police determined it was staged would make it suspicious.
 
Last edited:
Don't think so as the story line was that she brought it back to the police with an attorney at her side. IIRC it was the law firm's computer.

Are you saying the police had abandoned the cottage? Could be.

It's been a long time since this came up and it still means little and isn't an indication that Raf's statement wasn't suspicious.

to the bolded:

I don't think Bill's point was that Raf's statement wasn't suspicious. Rather it was that there were other possibly suspicious actions that were dismissed with the wave of a hand by police, whereas anything Amanda and Raffaele did were investigated with a fine-tooth comb.
 
I agree with everything you posted, but I made one correction since I believe it was Filomena who had counseled Amanda to not mention their pot smoking to the police?

I don't believe Filomena was involved, but Filomena had the exact same alibi Amanda had, that both spent the night with their boyfriends, and both of their boyfriends lived about 10 minutes away from the cottage. Yet, the police didn't even take DNA samples from Filomena or her boyfriend ...I guess, because Filomena cried at appropriate times and Amanda cried at wrong times?

This may be lengthy, but it's a perfect example of the tunnel vision (confirmation bias and suspect-centrism) that had afflicted the Italian police from the very beginning:

<........... suspicious deletia ..............>​

The problem with witness recollections, is when were their statements taken?

For example, immediately after the murder the English girls described Amanda and Meredith as friends, but later after reading that Amanda had murdered their friend, the later recollections of the English girlfriends had magically changed and now described Amanda as a witch-on-wheels.

Filomena, the police, and everyone else who would later testify against Amanda, all of their later recollections would likewise be influenced by the salacious media reports about Amanda.

Great post. I do think it was Sophie, though, who counseled this to Amanda. It's why Ficara was able to approach Amanda late on Nov 5th with, "Now it's the time for truth and no more lies." Amanda had, in fact, been caught out on this one.

However, why not the others who similarly lied?

Grinder is making the point that Filomena simply had more witnesses to her whereabouts, compared with Amanda who only had Raffaele.

Well, how did that go? My view is that it would not have been a stretch to arrest the lot of them, everyone within Filomena's circle-of-alibi, and accuse the lot of them of a Satanic ritual sacrifice.

With Raffaele, they showed themselves at least open to the concept. Neither of the first two memorandums implicated Raffaele at all, in fact the second one said they were not sure if or how Raffaele had been involved - and on that, they rushed out and arrested Lumumba!!!!

So they already had two others (substitute Rudy Guede for Lumumba) involved in a ritualistic, Halloe'en inspired sex-murder.

If the suspect-centrism had fallen onto Filomena, it just would have been a bigger party proposed by Mignini.
 
Quickly picked a few errors.

This appears to be directed at me.

Filomena and Amanda had different alibis. There were more people with F than A.


If you mean that Filomena had more witnesses since she had rushed off to an afternoon B-day party, the murder of Meredith was done in the evening, and according to the police, Meredith was murdered as late as 11:00 pm to 2:00 am the next day.

If you feel Filomena was still partying at 9:00 pm when Meredith returned home, that we'll never know since the police never properly reviewed Filomena's alibi, which is the point

She never said she left them open. She became more sure they were closed over time.


I don't think that's true. It's been awhile since I read Filomena's testimony, but I recall her changing her story while being questioned and confronted with two different recollections from earlier interviews.

If you don't agree, cite your source?

How do you know she snuck into her room?


After everyone was escorted from the cottage, Filomena somehow managed to retrieve her laptop. 2+2 = 4

She didn't shake out all of her clothes.


I agree! It was Massei who claimed that Filomena shook the glass from atop all her clothes, not me!

You should go back and read Bill's old posts because they are almost identical in viewpoint to yours.


MEBBE, you should go back and read Bill's old posts, but with an open mind this time.

May I ask where you have informed yourself about this case?


I may be new here, but I've been interested in this case for a long time – google around and you'll see since I have only used my real name.

Over the years I've read many excellent comments here in this forum, and I learned a lot that way. I've also read many of the translated court documents, as well as Massei and Hellmann all the way through.
 
to the bolded:

I don't think Bill's point was that Raf's statement wasn't suspicious. Rather it was that there were other possibly suspicious actions that were dismissed with the wave of a hand by police, whereas anything Amanda and Raffaele did were investigated with a fine-tooth comb.

Thanks for this. That's exactly it. The police are charged with investigating suspicions, and eventually turning those suspicions into charges. They sift through the suspicions and cast off those which don't fit the evidence.

If the point is that they were ONLY suspicious throughout of AK and RS - isn't THAT the problem? Filomena's boyfriend made a joke about how Meredith had been killed with a loaf of bread.... yet it is Amanda's comments which are "suspicious".
 
What does that have to do with how the police would view the comment?

I think you keep making the same mistake Grinder. We are really talking about whether a juror should consider it to be suspicious, not a police officer. It is one thing if this piece of info spurs on an officer to look more closely at a suspect. It is another issue entirely to consider this very ambiguous info as something that adds to the guilty side of the scales of justice.
 
to the bolded:

I don't think Bill's point was that Raf's statement wasn't suspicious. Rather it was that there were other possibly suspicious actions that were dismissed with the wave of a hand by police, whereas anything Amanda and Raffaele did were investigated with a fine-tooth comb.

Have you gone to amandaknoxcase.com and looked at the lists of witness statements?

Do you really believe that her retrieval of the computer was suspicious? If so, please explain how or why? What could the computer have disclosed about the murder except prints.

On the other hand Raf told them something they reasonably thought he couldn't know.

Do go and check on all the people they interviewed the first day and the next two. The PLE clearly didn't focus solely on A and R.
 
I think you keep making the same mistake Grinder. We are really talking about whether a juror should consider it to be suspicious, not a police officer. It is one thing if this piece of info spurs on an officer to look more closely at a suspect. It is another issue entirely to consider this very ambiguous info as something that adds to the guilty side of the scales of justice.

No Tesla we are talking about whether the police would look at it as suspicious.

It was for police to look at that statement as suspicious. Please show me where I said anything about jurors.

This is what you do all the time. You change the point. I have consistently said the police were reasonable to look at his response as suspicious. Done.
 
Yes these rationals have been given for 7 years. Raf may have been stoned out of his mind and not responsible for his choice of words.

The police reviewed the response and found it suspicious and they were reasonable to be suspicious. I would appear you are among those can only look at the case as if the kids are innocent and the police should have known that from day one.

Suspicious remarks or actions need not be evidence of guilt.

ETA - nothing needed to be added to it. Saying nothing was stolen when he couldn't know it and the police determined it was staged would make it suspicious.

I agree his statement was "suspicious". But only a little. If I was a cop, I would have noted that, thought it was odd, but then, when I put all the other info together, would have discounted it as not meaning much. I think several of Raffaele's other statements and actions were much more suspicious than this one. But people can say and do suspicious things all they want, it doesn't add up to a case if the evidence does not prove they did the crime. People say and do weird stuff all the time, especially in stressful situations.
 
I think you keep making the same mistake Grinder. We are really talking about whether a juror should consider it to be suspicious, not a police officer. It is one thing if this piece of info spurs on an officer to look more closely at a suspect. It is another issue entirely to consider this very ambiguous info as something that adds to the guilty side of the scales of justice.

Although some of Grinder's ideas on this has led to an interesting discussion of some of the events associated with the case, I agree completely with acbytesla here. Anything that Sollecito did in his early conversations with the police would be suspicious by some usages of the word. If he pointed out items that had been stolen it wold be suspicious that he could name specific items that wee stolen, if he was unnaturally precise in his speech it would be suspicious. However, in the normal sense of the word, suspicious, Sollecito's statement wasn't suspicious because it doesn't provide any significant evidence that he was involved in the murder.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom