Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

Well if he just said it was a good decision and explained what he had written in the motivations, then no, he wouldn't be less trustworthy. If he alluded to new evidence that couldn't be verified and he wouldn't provide proof of this new evidence, then, yes I would be skeptical.

I've demonstrated that both Moore and Clemente gave false information in their video interview with that online station. These were just the ones I found in a few minutes after being directed to the interviews.

This post of your deserves the most attention, because you have obviously put a lot of thought into it. It is the manner in which you put it, black and white.

Yet I find myself having to chose between two authorities - you on the one hand and Moore and Clemente on the other. On what basis do I choose with so few words, really, from either of you?

What you say positively demonstrates something, can only be said to have positively demonstrated it for yourself. Everyone else is reading it as further info and still needs to make up their minds based on what they, themselves, know.

What I appreciate most is your willingness to put your dieas out there. Keep 'em coming!

 

[Dan O.]

At least one person must have thought Rudy was suspiscious prior to his arrest.

 

[Bill Williams]

There is no doubt that she had to find her innocent given the evidence or lack of it. Now that that is achieved I'm still not at all sure we know what happened.

Nina's book is important to me as the starting point of many of PIP memes. I should have followed Anglo's advice and read her book early on. I have now read some of it.

She clearly at best used hyperbole and deception to create a greater crime wave for Rudi.

I too have wondered about that first alleged theft. She had an employee she didn't totally trust take in cash payments and hide them in a cabinet in a place whose door didn't lock properly? That was what I meant when I said although I didn't completely trust her, I did trust her account of being told Rudi was released because they know what else they could do.

Pounds of pasta is so much more dramatic and crazy than "the burglar cooked some food" -

To me it seems bizarre to want to, at this point, deconstruct early FOA stuff. Most early FOA stuff was an attempt to construct an innocence narrative from very limited information, because of the avalanche of info coming out of the prosecution office, as well as the very efficient distribution of prosecution stuff entered at trial - even before the defence had a crack at its case.

If your contention is that there is much, back then, that the innocence side did not get right, then you are probably right. It's the "agenda" you impose on this which is the most puzzling.

Especially at this point. They've been exonerated.

(Please note, I say all this because I do know that you in no way shape or form are challenging that exoneration!)

 

[Grinder]

Yet I find myself having to chose between two authorities - you on the one hand and Moore and Clemente on the other. On what basis do I choose with so few words, really, from either of you?

You can go to the videos and listen for yourself. Clemente says only one knife was tested and Moore says Mignini at the presser said we have bleach receipts showing Amanda bought bleach the next day and used it to clean the cottage.

They made statements that were false. Go look at the video interviews or open your copy of Moore's book.

And it isn't just me on the other side as people have supported the facts about the presser (Mignini wasn't there) and no mention of bleach (except for Raf's bottle in the MS pic) until the 16th.

Rather than appealing to authority, why don't you find facts that support M&C on the points challenged?

 

[Bill Williams]

You can go to the videos and listen for yourself. Clemente says only one knife was tested and Moore says Mignini at the presser said we have bleach receipts showing Amanda bought bleach the next day and used it to clean the cottage.

They made statements that were false. Go look at the video interviews or open your copy of Moore's book.

And it isn't just me on the other side as people have supported the facts about the presser (Mignini wasn't there) and no mention of bleach (except for Raf's bottle in the MS pic) until the 16th.

Rather than appealing to authority, why don't you find facts that support M&C on the points challenged?

Where have I appealed to authority?

 

[Bill Williams]

At least one person must have thought Rudy was suspiscious prior to his arrest.

I feel strange appealing to Judge Nencini for anything, now that his verdict is annulled. Yet, he seemes to think it would have been right to have been suspicious of Rudy, even as he eventually discounts that suspicion and toes the party-line....

.... that he was only a minor player. Rudy was more than likely the sole perp. Yet even Nencini concedes that the break-in was in his style, pre-known to the PLE.

 

[Grinder]

Another issue with the CT tale is that the police didn't come out - or at least there is no description or account that I've read anywhere. If they go to his place please give me a link. I believe this is where the out of sequence Nappy "was told" the time of the event came in.

If they didn't go to CT's how strange they would rush out for a prank call and then search for owners of lost phones but not go to a scene with weapons used.

If they send out the cops why don't they write the police report then and there?

 

[katy_did]

Several early Italian articles (pasted below) prove that the police were focused in on an African killer long before Amanda supposedly had fingered Lumumba on Nov 6th.

Guede's fast-track trial was essentially a trial by stipulation with both the prosecution and Guede agreeing to key points, which of course would implicate Amanda and Raffaele, as well as relegate Guede to being a bit player, which made both sides happy.

Amanda and Raffaele's defense may have raised these issues at their own trial later on, but Massei obviously already had his mind made up.

If it was mentioned at their trial, why Massei's 'Motivation' never mentions either the African hairs, nor the fact that the police had focused in on an African suspect early on, is likely due to the fact such evidence would be exonerating evidence, so Massei of course wouldn't want to go there.

For example, this Nov 5th Italian article proves that the police were already focused in on Lumumba before Amanda’s Nov 6th all-night interrogation (translated by my Chrome browser):

The second track of investigation focuses on the small group of friends. There are suspicions of a North African chef, one who works in one of the pubs frequented by students in Perugia English, Meredith and her friends. "It's the type of cut throat" that investigators do somehow think Islam. But officially say he was a friend, like others. Could have received the keys to the neighbors, by roommates? "That, yes, but there is no other.”

This description actually fits Hicham Khiri rather than Lumumba - he is, or was at the time, a chef in a Perugia restaurant, and is North African (unlike Lumumba, who I think would be described as Southern African, or at any rate not North African).

The police seem to have been pretty fixated on Khiri up until the 5th November, when according to the recently available documents his boss went into the police station and gave him an alibi. Perhaps not a coincidence that the 5th is also when they turned their attention to Amanda and Raffaele...

 

[Grinder]

Where have I appealed to authority?

It seemed contrasting my authority to M&C was a subtle (not) poke.

But let's get back to you watching the videos and then seeing if the challenged statements exist and if you can find support for them.

 

[Grinder]

.... that he was only a minor player. Rudy was more than likely the sole perp. Yet even Nencini concedes that the break-in was in his style, pre-known to the PLE.

Could you quote the entire section where he says that? I read it as "even if we accept the defense contention he was a professional burglar" it doesn't work because Rudi the professional burglar would have just picked the lock.

 

[carbonjam72]

Moore & Clemente were right in the main

You can go to the videos and listen for yourself. Clemente says only one knife was tested and Moore says Mignini at the presser said we have bleach receipts showing Amanda bought bleach the next day and used it to clean the cottage.

They made statements that were false. Go look at the video interviews or open your copy of Moore's book.

And it isn't just me on the other side as people have supported the facts about the presser (Mignini wasn't there) and no mention of bleach (except for Raf's bottle in the MS pic) until the 16th.

Rather than appealing to authority, why don't you find facts that support M&C on the points challenged?

I do think I've heard statements that were off in very minor detail from both, but in this statement from Clemente, I believe he is referring to the fact that only one knife from the drawer of knives in Raf's kitchen was tested, which appears to be true.

As Moore and Clemente, and other pros have commented, collecting evidence is like panning for gold. You collect widely in hopes of finding what's relevant.

Officer Finzi collected only the one knife from Raf's kitchen drawer, which he selected based on "intuition", and/or, "it was shiny". This criticism of Finzi and the police is certainly warranted, imo.

The larger points both were making remain valid. (i.e., Moore - no evidence of bleach clean-up at cottage, in fact, the footsteps in luminol PROVE there was NO bleach clean-up), and Clemente - evidence collection practices were so incompetent just on the knife from Raf's kitchen, its hard NOT to impute intentional fraud - in other words - yes, FRAMING!).

 

[Grinder]

To me it seems bizarre to want to, at this point, deconstruct early FOA stuff. Most early FOA stuff was an attempt to construct an innocence narrative from very limited information, because of the avalanche of info coming out of the prosecution office, as well as the very efficient distribution of prosecution stuff entered at trial - even before the defence had a crack at its case.

If your contention is that there is much, back then, that the innocence side did not get right, then you are probably right. It's the "agenda" you impose on this which is the most puzzling.

Especially at this point. They've been exonerated.

(Please note, I say all this because I do know that you in no way shape or form are challenging that exoneration!)

Bill I hate urban legends. I hate factoids and false memes. You weren't paying attention until at least the Hellmann verdict and some say even much later .

The M&C vids were made recently, the M vid in 2015. The defense (legal and media) didn't take all that long to get going.

So now that they have been found not guilty, I see no reason not to drill down on both the guilt and innocent narratives. Obviously the PG narratives have been torn apart here for years.

 

[Bill Williams]

It seemed contrasting my authority to M&C was a subtle (not) poke.

But let's get back to you watching the videos and then seeing if the challenged statements exist and if you can find support for them.

Apologies if it seemed that way.

No poke intended. We all choose which detail to drill deep into.

If I may, there does seem to be an agenda here to criticize the ealy FOA, for getting things wrong, and further for knowingly getting things wrong, and still further for knowingly getting things wrong because of an unseemly vested interest so to do.

It's weird only because it comes from an otherwise solid innocence position, however one which still sees itself in competition with early FOA.

A clue for me is that it's now inferred that even Hellmann may have migrated from someone initially only interested in justice to now also someone with an undue vested interest.

Your mileage obviously varies.

 

[Grinder]

At least one person must have thought Rudy was suspiscious prior to his arrest.

Giacomno? Do you have the back story on him?

 

[Grinder]

A clue for me is that it's now inferred that even Hellmann may have migrated from someone initially only interested in justice to now also someone with an undue vested interest.

Your mileage obviously varies.

Only saying "Hiliting" added bugs me more than the hilited above.

I doubt you will find me saying vested interest concerning Hellmann during his court trial. I said he has become an advocate for his court's decision. He made that decision without being an advocate, which is the important aspect. He made his decision with the other judges based on the evidence as they saw it.

Later when under attack he defended the verdict and in that sense became an advocate for the VERDICT.

 

[acbytesla]

I do think I've heard statements that were off in very minor detail from both, but in this statement from Clemente, I believe he is referring to the fact that only one knife from the drawer of knives in Raf's kitchen was tested, which appears to be true.

As Moore and Clemente, and other pros have commented, collecting evidence is like panning for gold. You collect widely in hopes of finding what's relevant.

Officer Finzi collected only the one knife from Raf's kitchen drawer, which he selected based on "intuition", and/or, "it was shiny". This criticism of Finzi and the police is certainly warranted, imo.

The larger points both were making remain valid. (i.e., Moore - no evidence of bleach clean-up at cottage, in fact, the footsteps in luminol PROVE there was NO bleach clean-up), and Clemente - evidence collection practices were so incompetent just on the knife from Raf's kitchen, its hard NOT to impute intentional fraud - in other words - yes, FRAMING!).

This is where I side with you CJ. I don't doubt that you can find minor issues with some of the PIP early memes. Some that even hung around for a while. I was always troubled with the descriptions of Rudy as a drifter, foreigner and drug dealer. To me a drifter is rootless, someone who drifts from town to town. As for a foreigner, technically true, but I wouldn't say it is accurate. That would be like referring to me as from out of state, when I've lived here for 90 percent of my life. As for being a drug dealer. Was he really? I've known people that have sold an ounce or 2, while technically they could be called dealers, in reality they weren't. I mean it wasn't their profession.

 

[Dan O.]

...

And it isn't just me on the other side as people have supported the facts about the presser (Mignini wasn't there) and no mention of bleach (except for Raf's bottle in the MS pic) until the 16th.

I've asked before and don't recall getting a response. Who made the claim that the bottle of fruit juice Raffaele was holding in his MS photo was bleach?

 

[Dan O.]

Bill I hate urban legends. I hate factoids and false memes. You weren't paying attention until at least the Hellmann verdict and some say even much later .

The M&C vids were made recently, the M vid in 2015. The defense (legal and media) didn't take all that long to get going.

So now that they have been found not guilty, I see no reason not to drill down on both the guilt and innocent narratives. Obviously the PG narratives have been torn apart here for years.

Grinder, in case you haven't noticed, neither Moore nor Clemente post on this site. If they were posters here, I would be challenging them on many of their statements because it is through these challenges and the folloup research that a better understanding of the truth is reached. If you have a disagreement with what they said or wrote, you should take that up directly with them (they both have publicly known email addresses) or at least take it up on a site where those statements are supported.

 

[Grinder]

I've asked before and don't recall getting a response. Who made the claim that the bottle of fruit juice Raffaele was holding in his MS photo was bleach?

Dan O. I'm mobile so can 't send links now but if you put "amanda knox" and bleach into a search from the 6Th to the 10th u should get a few hits where they write about it.
ETA-
On his personal page on a social networking website, Sollecito has posted a picture of himself dressed as a "killer doctor", with a meat cleaver in one hand and a bottle of bleach in the other.

11/7/2007 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1568637/Girl-confesses-over-her-flatmates-murder.html

Murdered Meredith: Flatmate's 'crazy' boyfriend poses with a meat cleaver and bleach
Last updated at 11:28 07 November 2007


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-poses-meat-cleaver-bleach.html#ixzz3d3HpQGwL

They showed him dressed in a surgeon's outfit, holding a meat cleaver in one hand and a container of bleach in the other.

These are the type of bleach stories told in the early going.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder, in case you haven't noticed, neither Moore nor Clemente post on this site. If they were posters here, I would be challenging them on many of their statements because it is through these challenges and the folloup research that a better understanding of the truth is reached. If you have a disagreement with what they said or wrote, you should take that up directly with them (they both have publicly known email addresses) or at least take it up on a site where those statements are supported.

I doubt they are here as they are very good at their games.

The informer theory was discussed and someone used Moore as the source with the appeal to authority to bolster. I found or was directed to the vids and found huge mistakes. Clemente may have a case for only meaning the knives in the drawer but his statement remains highly deceptive as it implies they only checked the kitchen knife from Raf's which isn't true. He also says the prosecution's forensic expert admitted or said it wasn't the murder weapon. Now we know that wasn't true but Clemente might say that there were murder weapons so it wasn't THE murder weapon and I say BS.

So if people are going to base their claim that Rudi was an informant on Moore's word I think they should get the backing or drop the contention.

As I have said earlier, now that the kids have been found not guilty we should be freed up even more than before to challenge PIP talking points to further getting to the truth.