Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

Looks like Carlofab at IA had the same thought.He posted this:

Nina Burleigh writes in Fatal Gift of Beauty (p.233):

“Based on records of the Kercher murder investigation, from police-witness conversations that took place at the questura, and later, after Amanda’s statement and arrest, the same phenomenon occurred. Amanda’s chief accusers – the British girls – shared different memories before and after the arrest. In their first conversations at the questura, none told police that Meredith disliked Amanda. […]

“Six weeks later, interviewed in Bergamo in northern Italy, with Amanda’s confession widely disseminated, the British girls first began recalling Meredith’s unease and Amanda’s bathroom habits and her weird boyfriends. They also talked about their own impression of Amanda at the questura, hours after poor Meredith’s body was found, about watching her make out with Raffaele at the questura, her curious callouisness.”

Burleigh, p. 256:

“The ‘British girls’ arrived at the Tribunale together on February 13, 2009, tweedy, peaches-and-cream-complected sylphs who moved as a pack. Their testimony was so similar that observers thought they seemed robotic or coached. They repeated exactly what they had shared with police in Bergamo back in 2008, when they’d described Meredith’s annoyance with Amanda’s strange male visitors, guitar playing, and hygiene, and Amanda’s callous behavior at the police station.

“After the girls testified at the murder trial … Amanda Knox reportedly turned to her lawyers and said, “Wow, it didn’t take long for them to hate me.”
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[MichaelB]

Yes, but Frost got intensely negative about Amanda in testimony.

Another thing I noticed with Frost is she answered 21 times "I don't know" or "I don't remember" yet if Amanda didn't remember something = sex killer.

 

[Grinder]

And the negative stories about Rudi came out after his arrest. The one story about him harassing girl etc. has been used for 7 years. Nina and her crime wave theory based on speculation and exaggeration. Do you also attribute all the negative remarks about Rudi on the arrest?

CT didn't "believe" he recognized Rudi for two months but his guilt may have brought him out. Diaz assuming she is real didn't ever come forward but had a tale for Nina.

It is natural for people to focus on the worst part of people after they are charged with a crime. They may even make stuff up or exaggerate.

 

[Grinder]

Another thing I noticed with Frost is she answered 21 times "I don't know" or "I don't remember" yet if Amanda didn't remember something = sex killer.

Which interview was that? I may have missed it as the one I read was summary.

 

[MichaelB]

Which interview was that? I may have missed it as the one I read was summary.

In Amy Frost's testimony at Massei. An English translation is on the guilter wiki.

 

[Samson]

It's quite interesting to read these statements by the British girls. It's very clear that they really didn't know Amanda very well and what ever opinion ion they had of her actually was the result of them being convinced by the authorities that the American was their friend's killer.

This really was more like a virus.

I would not kill for a pizza, nor would I kill to hear what these girls have to say now. However I would be curious.

 

[acbytesla]

And the negative stories about Rudi came out after his arrest. The one story about him harassing girl etc. has been used for 7 years. Nina and her crime wave theory based on speculation and exaggeration. Do you also attribute all the negative remarks about Rudi on the arrest?

CT didn't "believe" he recognized Rudi for two months but his guilt may have brought him out. Diaz assuming she is real didn't ever come forward but had a tale for Nina.

It is natural for people to focus on the worst part of people after they are charged with a crime. They may even make stuff up or exaggerate.

I don't trust those either. Are these stories an ex post facto revision of the lens that people saw him through? Probably some of it at the very least. That said I'm thoroughly convinced Rudy murdered Meredith. I also believe that Rudy was there originally to burglarize the cottage. Which probably means that he wasn't breaking his cherry. One could if inclined to believe Rudy bought the phone and laptop, but I'd lay 5 to 1 odds that he broke into the law office. And 50/50 at least on Diaz and CT.

 

[acbytesla]

I would not kill for a pizza, nor would I kill to hear what these girls have to say now. However I would be curious.

I might however say that I'd kill for a pizza. I'd be curious too. Maybe more curious what they might say in a few years. What is surprising to me is that none of those English tabloids haven't sought them out?

 

[Samson]

I might however say that I'd kill for a pizza. I'd be curious too. Maybe more curious what they might say in a few years. What is surprising to me is that none of those English tabloids haven't sought them out?

That is another puzzle.
I have been reflecting on the bigger story, of how wrongly accused, and witnesses become public property. And families of victims.
What are the ethical considerations? Is it simply a collateral hazard to being alive?

 

[MichaelB]

This is the "spontaneous declaration" that caused the second calunnia charge, it's on page 214/215 of the March 13, 2007 transcript.

SPONTANEOUS DECLARATION BY THE DEFENDANT – AMANDA MARIE KNOX –

Thank-you your honor, I wanted to insist on one point that is very important for me, very important. The witnesses are avoiding and also denying some facts about what happened, during the interrogation on the night of the 5th and 6th of November 2007.

I wanted to clarify certain elements that for me are really important and I’m not willing to let it pass. First of all there are hours and hours where they don’t say that I continued to confirm my same version even when they told me that Raffaele apparently said that I left the house. There was this aggressive insistence about the message that I received and replied to Patrick, really aggressive! They called me “a stupid liar”, from everywhere… there was also this story of the trauma that this Donnino had told me about and then after that she suggested that this could have been the same situation that happened to me. In the sense that right while I couldn’t remember very well because I was traumatized and because of this I should be able to remember something different. Then these slaps on the head that I really did receive… it’s true, I’m sorry, that’s the way it was! I wanted to say these things, thank-you.

Prosecutor Mignini: At this point the Prosecution requests the transmission of these statements made by Amanda Knox to our offices.

Defense Dalla Vedova: Indeed we also ask for the same thing, if your Honor believes there are verifications that should be made…

Judge: The Prosecution have requested it.

Prosecutor Mignini: We have the prerequisites of an offense.

Defense Dalla Vedova: The prerequisites for establishing responsibility without doubt

ORDER: The Court, on the basis of the request by the Prosecution, will arrange for the transmission of the current transcript to that same Prosecution.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co.../Spontaneous-Statement-Knox-13-March-2009.pdf

 

[MichaelB]

And the negative stories about Rudi came out after his arrest. The one story about him harassing girl etc. has been used for 7 years. Nina and her crime wave theory based on speculation and exaggeration. Do you also attribute all the negative remarks about Rudi on the arrest?

CT didn't "believe" he recognized Rudi for two months but his guilt may have brought him out. Diaz assuming she is real didn't ever come forward but had a tale for Nina.

It is natural for people to focus on the worst part of people after they are charged with a crime. They may even make stuff up or exaggerate.

Zachary Nowak in one of the documentaries also said he harassed girls.

 

[Kauffer]

Another thing I noticed with Frost is she answered 21 times "I don't know" or "I don't remember" yet if Amanda didn't remember something = sex killer.

You highlight a very important theme in the case - that exceptional rigour was demanded of Amanda's accounts, yet not of others.

 

[carbonjam72]

This is the "spontaneous declaration" that caused the second calunnia charge, it's on page 214/215 of the March 13, 2007 transcript.


http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co.../Spontaneous-Statement-Knox-13-March-2009.pdf

Probably just a typo, but I think this statement is made in 2009 during massei trial is my guess?

(When I saw 2007, I was wondering if there was some sort of pre-trial hearing, but it looks from the doc to have been made at trial in 2009).

 

[carbonjam72]

Tabloid guilter trash articles have all but vanished. Is there one since acquittal?

I might however say that I'd kill for a pizza. I'd be curious too. Maybe more curious what they might say in a few years. What is surprising to me is that none of those English tabloids haven't sought them out?

As others have pointed out, its a lot harder for the tabloid or other news organizations to infer slanderous comments after the ISC acquittal.

Raf has indicated he will 'not tolerate' that kind of slander any more at his press conference immediately following the acquittal.

I think the danger of Raf suing the British girls is small to non-existant. Same for the lone twitter idiots or other loud mouth trolls. But the tabloids or other news organizations have resources to pay, and would make viable litigation targets, IIUC.

The whole game the tabloids play, is based on destroying people's lives with the most outrageous stories they can print, truth is a secondary consideration.

They sell short a person's reputation all the way down, and then sell long their reputation as they crawl their way back from the public disgrace the tabloids have inflicted.

Notice how not all the tabloid articles are negative. They were often highly negative, but they also bounced positive, and I think that's to stoke a sense of conflict and controversy in the public.

The latest self-published DIY entrant in the slander fest, Nick Van slander whatever, is playing the same game, albeit out of a trailer park in the outback (metaphorically speaking).

By pretending there is 'doubt' or a 'question of guilt', they hope to lure an audience. But faced with the prospect of actually having to prove anything in court, not everyone enjoys the protections of a being a faux judge in a fascist relic state justice system like Mignini.

Not even Mignini has been shooting his mouth off lately. The resolution of Mignini and the police slander claims about the early investigations will be interesting to see how they wind up. It would be a huge disgrace to Mignini and the police if those cases were won by the defendants on the merits, I would guess, rather than petering out due to statute of limitations.

 

[Samson]

Probably just a typo, but I think this statement is made in 2009 during massei trial is my guess?

(When I saw 2007, I was wondering if there was some sort of pre-trial hearing, but it looks from the doc to have been made at trial in 2009).

Looks like 2009 alright.
I have never seen even an attempt at plausible refutation of her claims.

They called me “a stupid liar”, from everywhere… there was also this story of the trauma that this Donnino had told me about and then after that she suggested that this could have been the same situation that happened to me. In the sense that right while I couldn’t remember very well because I was traumatized and because of this I should be able to remember something different. Then these slaps on the head that I really did receive… it’s true, I’m sorry, that’s the way it was! I wanted to say these things, thank-you.

.............................................

Is there documentation of explicit denial of the accusations?

 

[MichaelB]

Yes March 13, 2009. My mistake.

 

[carbonjam72]

Yes March 13, 2009. My mistake.

Do you still believe Nina Burleigh invented story of 'pounds of pasta', or otherwise embellished or fabricated parts of her book?

Just curious, but I know the 'Rudy in Milan' chronicles seems to be an ongoing bone of contention.

 

[MichaelB]

Do you still believe Nina Burleigh invented story of 'pounds of pasta', or otherwise embellished or fabricated parts of her book?

Just curious, but I know the 'Rudy in Milan' chronicles seems to be an ongoing bone of contention.

It seems she did. Del Prato didn't mention it in her testimony and you'd think she would have since she was asked questions about the theft. I also think it's odd she didn't report it to police. 2000 euros of stolen tuition is a lot of money for a small nursery.

But I don't think it really matters about Burleigh's book. It's just a book. My opinion on innocence certainly isn't based on it.

 

[Grinder]

It seems she did. Del Prato didn't mention it in her testimony and you'd think she would have since she was asked questions about the theft. I also think it's odd she didn't report it to police. 2000 euros of stolen tuition is a lot of money for a small nursery.

But I don't think it really matters about Burleigh's book. It's just a book. My opinion on innocence certainly isn't based on it.

There is no doubt that she had to find her innocent given the evidence or lack of it. Now that that is achieved I'm still not at all sure we know what happened.

Nina's book is important to me as the starting point of many of PIP memes. I should have followed Anglo's advice and read her book early on. I have now read some of it.

She clearly at best used hyperbole and deception to create a greater crime wave for Rudi.

I too have wondered about that first alleged theft. She had an employee she didn't totally trust take in cash payments and hide them in a cabinet in a place whose door didn't lock properly? That was what I meant when I said although I didn't completely trust her, I did trust her account of being told Rudi was released because they know what else they could do.

Pounds of pasta is so much more dramatic and crazy than "the burglar cooked some food" -

 

[Grinder]

Zachary Nowak in one of the documentaries also said he harassed girls.

Okay two guys After reading Rudi's German stuff and his 2008 statement I in no way believe the loner/outcast/fringie characterization of him. He seem to have lot's of friends and was a social guy.