Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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....I don't see any dates from the kids of Lana.

....

In their Nov. 2 witness statements, Ms. Lana's daughter stated that the prank call had come "Ieri sera verso le ore 22.00" which Google translates to "Last night at approximately 22:00" while Ms. Lana's son stated that "Last night, at approximately 22:00, I was called on my mobile by my mother" who reported a prank call.

So the family agreed in their statements that the prank call came in at about 10 pm, which is consistent with Capasso's call at 9:48 pm. However, Capasso's call was on Oct. 31. The Perugian police learned this at least by Nov. 3, 3:40 am.

Again, without access to contemporary police logs (or relevant telephone records), we cannot be sure of what happened and when with regard to phone calls from the Lana-Biscarini family to the police, and police responses.
 
I don't know about clear as day. My statement was that I hadn't noticed anybody making a post in this thread that the police or prosecution had claimed that they had found bleach receipts in Sollecito's apartment. You responded by quoting a question about the issue originally posted by Carbonjam72 and a reference to another post that, apparently, after considering it decided that it also did not include the claim.

I never talked about the receipts in his flat that was more of Vixen and others. I said the police didn't say anything about bleach receipts in the first week for sure. The other poster said that it was said at the "case closed" presser. I said i didn't think that was true and that I had searched and found no mention before the 8th and that it would have big news if at the presser. IIRC at some point Moore was cited or I found his reference to it in a video and this was evidence to me that Moore was spreading information that was incorrect or as Bill would appreciate he was at the center of creating a factoid.

The second comment was only included to show how Moore's factoids were used. Albeit a different factoid.

This is a tiny issue, and your Carbonjam72 quote does support your notion that a false fact did become at least suspected of being true by some pro-innocence people. That was a point that I tried to agree with you on with my comments about Steve Moore. Sometimes, we all (perhaps excluding Grinder) can allow our confirmation biases to make it more likely that we assume facts to be true if they support our ideas.

Well I'm more interested in what really happened than Amanda especially now that she is free. I will be bashed for this but I'm trying to view this case as if I was writing a non-fiction account that could get to the truth.

However, before we reject Carbonjam72 completely as a credible source for all time now as the result of his transgression, I think, it is important to note that he couched his opinion on this in such a way as to make it "clear as day" that he wasn't certain and that he wasn't making a claim that the police or prosecution actually did claim to have recovered bleach receipts only that he thought it was possible or perhaps likely given the construction of the sentence you quoted.

The clear as day referred to Moore's statement in the video. Did you watch it?

My main objection is that these factoids turn into memes and challenging them makes for hell to pay. The different supporters from technical experts to the press to plain old supporters form this team that supports each others work and assumptions in a circular way.

Was it Hendry that complimented (or is it with an e LJ?) Nina on the Diaz report? I'll bet dollars to dimes that he didn't interview Diaz or the police report. He just took her to be accurate and spread it in his book, which then is quoted on a discussion board and on and on and on.
 
In their Nov. 2 witness statements, Ms. Lana's daughter stated that the prank call had come "Ieri sera verso le ore 22.00" which Google translates to "Last night at approximately 22:00" while Ms. Lana's son stated that "Last night, at approximately 22:00, I was called on my mobile by my mother" who reported a prank call.

So the family agreed in their statements that the prank call came in at about 10 pm, which is consistent with Capasso's call at 9:48 pm. However, Capasso's call was on Oct. 31. The Perugian police learned this at least by Nov. 3, 3:40 am.

Again, without access to contemporary police logs (or relevant telephone records), we cannot be sure of what happened and when with regard to phone calls from the Lana-Biscarini family to the police, and police responses.

Thanks. As I said I don't have the ability to translate those docs and obviously the dates weren't there. I don't understand how the statements could be made the 2nd but the police didn't know as late as Nov. 3, 3:40 am.

What time did they make the statements?

What time did the PP get to Lana's? Were there disco buses?

Speaking of which, I find it fascinating that Rudi told of there being no disco buses in his 2008 interview with only PLE present yet it took three years for the defense to get it. These interviews had to be available to the defense one would think, no?
 
Well I'm more interested in what really happened than Amanda especially now that she is free. I will be bashed for this but I'm trying to view this case as if I was writing a non-fiction account that could get to the truth.

True Crime genre!?
 
Thanks. As I said I don't have the ability to translate those docs and obviously the dates weren't there. I don't understand how the statements could be made the 2nd but the police didn't know as late as Nov. 3, 3:40 am.

What time did they make the statements?

What time did the PP get to Lana's? Were there disco buses?

Speaking of which, I find it fascinating that Rudi told of there being no disco buses in his 2008 interview with only PLE present yet it took three years for the defense to get it. These interviews had to be available to the defense one would think, no?

Witness statement- witness, time (no information if the time is beginning or end of interview), and date:

Elisabetta Lana 8:58 pm Nov. 2, 2007
Fiammenta Biscarini 8:40 pm Nov. 2, 2007
Alessandro Biscarini 11:00 pm Nov. 2, 2007

It is clear that the police were putting in overtime on the murder case.

ETA Alessandro Capasso 3:40 am Nov. 3, 2007
(The police obviously knew about Capasso before this time....they would have ID'd his phone from phone co. records. This is the latest time point that they would have known it.)
 
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I never talked about the receipts in his flat that was more of Vixen and others. I said the police didn't say anything about bleach receipts in the first week for sure. The other poster said that it was said at the "case closed" presser. I said i didn't think that was true and that I had searched and found no mention before the 8th and that it would have big news if at the presser. IIRC at some point Moore was cited or I found his reference to it in a video and this was evidence to me that Moore was spreading information that was incorrect or as Bill would appreciate he was at the center of creating a factoid.

The second comment was only included to show how Moore's factoids were used. Albeit a different factoid.



Well I'm more interested in what really happened than Amanda especially now that she is free. I will be bashed for this but I'm trying to view this case as if I was writing a non-fiction account that could get to the truth.



The clear as day referred to Moore's statement in the video. Did you watch it?

My main objection is that these factoids turn into memes and challenging them makes for hell to pay. The different supporters from technical experts to the press to plain old supporters form this team that supports each others work and assumptions in a circular way.

Was it Hendry that complimented (or is it with an e LJ?) Nina on the Diaz report? I'll bet dollars to dimes that he didn't interview Diaz or the police report. He just took her to be accurate and spread it in his book, which then is quoted on a discussion board and on and on and on.

Its fine to have a difference of opinion. My own opinion, is that professional journalists like Nina Burleigh in particular, or experienced crime scene experts, like Moore or Hendry, are credible voices, just as Dr Gill or Chris H here are credible in their fields of expertise. Of course they rely on each other, its called trust that nobody is just fabricating stuff. It's amazing to me how free some people here feel to cast that aspersion.

These are people's professions, you don't have to believe what they say because they're professionals, but don't they at least merit the benefit of the doubt that they're truthful in what they report having found?

Journalism can be a slippery slope. No doubt there are gradations of quality. If Nina isn't best in class, who is?

I find these experts far more credible than Grinder's aggressive skepticism, assumptions, and self-determined pronouncements of facts.

But I do wish the best of luck in any literary endeavors the ISF G-man cares to undertake. Its a great exercise in clarifying thoughts.
 
Its fine to have a difference of opinion. My own opinion, is that professional journalists like Nina Burleigh in particular, or experienced crime scene experts, like Moore or Hendry, are credible voices, just as Dr Gill or Chris H here are credible in their fields of expertise. Of course they rely on each other, its called trust that nobody is just fabricating stuff. It's amazing to me how free some people here feel to cast that aspersion.

It feel like a straw man. Did I question anything from Gill? Chris and I have discussed many things but I certainly haven't said anything pejorative. By only comment I recall about Hendry was that his comment about Nina's Diaz story didn't mean much as he was/is a FOA/IIP "member".

Why would Gill rely on Nina or Hendry or Hendry on Nina or...

Chris' field isn't DNA or a number of other subjects he discusses here but he doesn't ever just make pronouncements. He backs almost everything with cites.

These are people's professions, you don't have to believe what they say because they're professionals, but don't they at least merit the benefit of the doubt that they're truthful in what they report having found?

I have been very specific about what I question. I've shown in the case of Nina that even the NY Times thought a story on her perhaps crossing the line was warranted and she was described as pursuing a theory. I showed that by placing the Nappy conversation ahead of his supposedly spotting Rudi that she left the impression Nappy worked that night when it seems clear he was interviewed by her much later during the trial.

Should Barbie, Andrea and Follain be given the benefit of the doubt? How about R Owen?

[quoteJournalism can be a slippery slope. No doubt there are gradations of quality. If Nina isn't best in class, who is?[/quote]

Read the Ny Times story.

I find these experts far more credible than Grinder's aggressive skepticism, assumptions, and self-determined pronouncements of facts.

You keep making these personal attacks without specifics. You make claims on things that maybe someone said about something. Recently I believe you made a claim about a Milan officer that was named by maybe Nina and he told of the call from Perugia or at least in context you implied it but no more. No cite.

Moore clear as day said in the March 2015 interview that Mignini said at the press conference that they had bleach receipts yet that seems to be false. Do you admit that was a factoid and never happened?

But I do wish the best of luck in any literary endeavors the ISF G-man cares to undertake. Its a great exercise in clarifying thoughts.

I don't in any wish to emulate any G-Man.
 
Witness statement- witness, time (no information if the time is beginning or end of interview), and date:

Elisabetta Lana 8:58 pm Nov. 2, 2007
Fiammenta Biscarini 8:40 pm Nov. 2, 2007
Alessandro Biscarini 11:00 pm Nov. 2, 2007

It is clear that the police were putting in overtime on the murder case.

ETA Alessandro Capasso 3:40 am Nov. 3, 2007
(The police obviously knew about Capasso before this time....they would have ID'd his phone from phone co. records. This is the latest time point that they would have known it.)

Thanks. I still think the most likely explanation is that with the flurry of activity that perhaps they mixed up the days or perhaps the phone call was on the 1st or the police didn't go out the 31st but rather the 1st and perhaps at an earlier time.

I agree with you that there really isn't enough data to know what's what.

I hope someone will explain how this figures into the grand picture.
 
Professionals, Amateurs, and then there's us...

It feel like a straw man. Did I question anything from Gill? Chris and I have discussed many things but I certainly haven't said anything pejorative. By only comment I recall about Hendry was that his comment about Nina's Diaz story didn't mean much as he was/is a FOA/IIP "member".

Why would Gill rely on Nina or Hendry or Hendry on Nina or...

Chris' field isn't DNA or a number of other subjects he discusses here but he doesn't ever just make pronouncements. He backs almost everything with cites.



I have been very specific about what I question. I've shown in the case of Nina that even the NY Times thought a story on her perhaps crossing the line was warranted and she was described as pursuing a theory. I showed that by placing the Nappy conversation ahead of his supposedly spotting Rudi that she left the impression Nappy worked that night when it seems clear he was interviewed by her much later during the trial.

Should Barbie, Andrea and Follain be given the benefit of the doubt? How about R Owen?

[quoteJournalism can be a slippery slope. No doubt there are gradations of quality. If Nina isn't best in class, who is?

Read the Ny Times story.



You keep making these personal attacks without specifics. You make claims on things that maybe someone said about something. Recently I believe you made a claim about a Milan officer that was named by maybe Nina and he told of the call from Perugia or at least in context you implied it but no more. No cite.

Moore clear as day said in the March 2015 interview that Mignini said at the press conference that they had bleach receipts yet that seems to be false. Do you admit that was a factoid and never happened?



I don't in any wish to emulate any G-Man.


Concerning the Hilite, this is your MO that I'm referring to.

On what basis does it "seem false" to you?

Do we have a transcript of the press conference? I don't. I haven't seem one or heard of one. I don't know if Moore is right, or even if Moore was specifically referring to the press conference.

But the claim that a clean-up occurred, which Mignini has maintained, is plainly false. The bleach story is "of that species", and disproven by the presence of footprints in luminol, and the absence of swirl patterns in same - according to Moore - which sounds credible to me.

Yet you assume, presumably, without the benefit of a 'case closed' transcript, that Moore got it wrong. Maybe he did. But how do you know?

You maybe correct. But your claim has no foundation, other than your own insistence that your assumptions must be accepted. With all due respect, I decline the privilege.
I don't have all the facts and sources at my fingertips. When I know where something comes from, I try to provide it. When I don't, I mention that I seem to recall something, and more often than not, someone comes in with the cite and completes the point.

Your spin on a NY Times story isn't binding dogma, ok?

Your twisting my words to imply comparisons I never made is just silly. Your pointing to Chris's field of expertise is a deflection from the point that Nina is a professional, and her expertise is journalism.

I'm positive I read about the phone call from Milan as reported by a Milan cop, and that the cop was named in the report. I'm pretty sure it was either Burleigh or Dempsey. So you assume what? That this recollection is either unreliable or false, but in any event, cannot be factually correct. And what is the basis for your conclusion? Only your own assumptions. You're welcome to them, I do not find your assumptions convincing.
Grinder, it seems silly to have to repeat to you, that professional journalists in mainstream publications, who work with editors and have reputations to protect, are more credible to me than your skepticism. That you seem to feel differently, is entering the land of Mach.

You've brought a lot of insight to the boards. But I do think you sometimes overplay your hand, FWIW.
 
Grinder, it seems silly to have to repeat to you, that professional journalists in mainstream publications, who work with editors and have reputations to protect, are more credible to me than your skepticism. That you seem to feel differently, is entering the land of Mach.

You've brought a lot of insight to the boards. But I do think you sometimes overplay your hand, FWIW.

The skepticism displayed on this board by the poster in question is mainly a good thing, and has very much got to the bottom of things more often than not. For that it is much appreciated and deserves a listen. I say this as one who has been on the receiving end of it!!!

Like any one of us who brings a strength into these proceedings, the real issue is that it is not always 100% accurate. I simply do not share the skepticism about Nina Burleigh or Steve Moore. I appreciate that Grinder has firm opinions as to what it "seems like" to him, but it is like a lot of us...

..... it is always, YMMV. No one is insisting on an orthodoxy here. And even if they did, it certainly cannot be delivered upon.
 
Didn't the media get the bogus information about receipts for bleach from the police and/or prosecution? Or did the media invent this story without assistance?

Similarly for the bathroom soaked in "blood" (actually most likely from a forensic test chemical that turns pinkish-red after reacting with the oxygen in air) photo - did the media invent this picture?

No, the media did not invent the picture. Police officials took the photo - there were no non-PLE persons in the house at that time. The police official who took and distributed the pink bathroom photo may be senior Postal Police officer Profazio, as he was photographed in another photo near the bathroom doorway holding a small camera that apparently was not part of the official photography kit.

This may be a case of a police officer taking the photo on his own and then releasing it to the media, or it may be a case of a police officer agreeing to take a journalist's camera inside the crime scene and using it to take photos for the journalist.

Are Italian police officers allowed to simultaneously work inside crime scene perimeters as (compensated?) photogrphers by the news media?
 
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No, the media did not invent the picture. Police officials took the photo - there were no non-PLE persons in the house at that time. ....

This may be a case of a police officer taking the photo on his own and then releasing it to the media, or it may be a case of a police officer agreeing to take a journalist's camera inside the crime scene and using it to take photos for the journalist. ....

Or it may be part of an effort by the police and prosecutor to prejudice opinion against the defendants.

In the Monster of Florence, Preston and Spezzi claim (IIRC) that in Italian (major) criminal trials, it is not enough to simply find the defendant guilty; the reputation of the defendant must be destroyed. (That's a cultural and not a legal observation.) That seems to be what the police and prosecution attempted in this case.
 
Concerning the Hilite, this is your MO that I'm referring to.

On what basis does it "seem false" to you?

Well as has been shown no reference to this statement can be found in any of the contemporaneous reports. Dan O. who has done a sterling job of cataloging everything about this case said the first mention was Oct. 16th of bleach receipts and that wasn't a quote of Mignini.

I was following the case at that time and never heard this Mignini at the presser statement.

In short there is absolutely nothing to verify his statement but the record shows no mention.

Now proving a negative is very difficult and no one seems to have the transcript so his statement seems false. Now since we know IIP reads here I would hope if there was proof Mignini said at the presser we would know by now.

Do we have a transcript of the press conference? I don't. I haven't seem one or heard of one. I don't know if Moore is right, or even if Moore was specifically referring to the press conference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0LXNpYVmQY please go to 9:15 and hear at the press conference 5 days after the murder Mignini says "we have the receipt that shows Amanda Knox purchased bleach to next morning at a local store" and "she went back to the house and cleaned it with bleach"

But the claim that a clean-up occurred, which Mignini has maintained, is plainly false. The bleach story is "of that species", and disproven by the presence of footprints in luminol, and the absence of swirl patterns in same - according to Moore - which sounds credible to me.

There is no evidence of any significant clean up but that doesn't change the fact that 7 years after the murder Moore is saying that Mignini made the statement at the presser.

Yet you assume, presumably, without the benefit of a 'case closed' transcript, that Moore got it wrong. Maybe he did. But how do you know?

Since you obviously haven't listened to the video or done any research on your own, you will never get it.

You maybe correct. But your claim has no foundation, other than your own insistence that your assumptions must be accepted. With all due respect, I decline the privilege.
Please provide proof that Mignini said it. There was no mention until the 16th. As someone else pointed out the smell of bleach story didn't come out until the 8th.

I don't have all the facts and sources at my fingertips. When I know where something comes from, I try to provide it. When I don't, I mention that I seem to recall something, and more often than not, someone comes in with the cite and completes the point.

No mostly someone affirms they heard the same story from ultimately the same source.

Your spin on a NY Times story isn't binding dogma, ok?

What is my spin? The story is about losing professional objectivity.

Your twisting my words to imply comparisons I never made is just silly. Your pointing to Chris's field of expertise is a deflection from the point that Nina is a professional, and her expertise is journalism.

She is a professional writer. So is Barbie, Vogt and Vander Leek or whatever his name is.

I'm positive I read about the phone call from Milan as reported by a Milan cop, and that the cop was named in the report. I'm pretty sure it was either Burleigh or Dempsey. So you assume what? That this recollection is either unreliable or false, but in any event, cannot be factually correct. And what is the basis for your conclusion? Only your own assumptions. You're welcome to them, I do not find your assumptions convincing.

I provide a video with Moore saying exactly that Mignini claimed bleach receipts and you don't even bother to look at it. You don't bother to support any of your claims. Maybe you read about the Milan cop in a comment to Perugia Shock. Or maybe you read it on Ground Report written by an anonymous "reporter".

Grinder, it seems silly to have to repeat to you, that professional journalists in mainstream publications, who work with editors and have reputations to protect, are more credible to me than your skepticism. That you seem to feel differently, is entering the land of Mach.

You've brought a lot of insight to the boards. But I do think you sometimes overplay your hand, FWIW.

I wish you would do some research and stop attacking me but rather the points. For a day I've put up what Moore says as clear as day. You seem to be in deep denial.

You seem to think any questioning of any aspect of a book written by a journalist is beyond the pale. I've stated that even if all the events are accurate that still doesn't mean Rudi did it. I doubt you've even bothered to read Nina's account. According to the book Diaz didn't even suspect Rudi until he was in the paper about the murder. Her name is supposed to be Madu Diaz yet I couldn't find anyone with that name in Perugia.
 
Better words for better discussions

So tell me, Bill, what does being "framed" mean to you? :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutorial_misconduct

In jurisprudence, prosecutorial misconduct is "an illegal act or failing to act, on the part of a prosecutor, especially an attempt to sway the jury to wrongly convict a defendant or to impose a harsher than appropriate punishment."[1] It is similar to selective prosecution.

Types of misconduct

False confession False arrest -- abetting Falsified evidence Intimidation Police brutality -- abetting Prosecutorial corruption
Political repression
Racial profiling
Sexual abuse
Surveillance abuse -- abetting Testifying -- Subornation of perjury Failure to Disclose Exculpatory Evidence
The highlighted types are the ones I believe occurred in this case.
 
Dave, Strozzi, Bill please do me the favor of going to the 9:15 mark on the video and report what Moore says.

Bill what exactly do you believe about Diaz and the fire?

Curious how many have read Rudi's Skypes, diary and interview with the PLE.
 
It feel like a straw man. Did I question anything from Gill? Chris and I have discussed many things but I certainly haven't said anything pejorative. By only comment I recall about Hendry was that his comment about Nina's Diaz story didn't mean much as he was/is a FOA/IIP "member".

Why would Gill rely on Nina or Hendry or Hendry on Nina or...

Chris' field isn't DNA or a number of other subjects he discusses here but he doesn't ever just make pronouncements. He backs almost everything with cites.



I have been very specific about what I question. I've shown in the case of Nina that even the NY Times thought a story on her perhaps crossing the line was warranted and she was described as pursuing a theory. I showed that by placing the Nappy conversation ahead of his supposedly spotting Rudi that she left the impression Nappy worked that night when it seems clear he was interviewed by her much later during the trial.

Should Barbie, Andrea and Follain be given the benefit of the doubt? How about R Owen?

Journalism can be a slippery slope. No doubt there are gradations of quality. If Nina isn't best in class, who is?

Read the Ny Times story.



You keep making these personal attacks without specifics. You make claims on things that maybe someone said about something. Recently I believe you made a claim about a Milan officer that was named by maybe Nina and he told of the call from Perugia or at least in context you implied it but no more. No cite.

Moore clear as day said in the March 2015 interview that Mignini said at the press conference that they had bleach receipts yet that seems to be false. Do you admit that was a factoid and never happened?



I don't in any wish to emulate any G-Man.

I've read the New York Times article. As Inigo Montoya said to Vizzini, I don't think it means what you think it means. Also, the article is just the author's KATE ZERNIKEs opinion.

I think sometimes reporters often in their attempts to be fair and neutral are neither fair or neutral. I mean when something is wrong it's wrong. And trying to act as if the argument that is wrong is somehow worthy is not fair to the right side Sometimes there is no gray area.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele are innocent and the facts are clear that they are. There may be certain parts of Nina's book that was not as diligently checked as it should have been. But suggesting that Nina fabricated the story just because you can't find some official record to corroborate might also be wrong.
 
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.... But suggesting that Nina fabricated the story just because you can't find some official record to corroborate might also be wrong.

And sometimes official records are 1) incomplete, or 2) misleading, or 3) just plain wrong.

What are we to believe when official records are contradictory, as is apparently the case for when the prank bomb scare call was made to the Lana-Biscarini family?

Or when judges make up their own evidence in their motivation reports, as Massei and Nencini did?
 
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