Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

[abaddon]

If you can't show the rag is 2000ish years old then we aren't going at a pace;we are standing still. No date, no authenticity.

Although, why you tie this to your belief about Jesus is beyond me. <snip>

This is what boggles me. It matters not a whit whether Jebus is real or not, it is more important that the tablecloth is "real".

Because everyone knows that the tablecloth is much more important than Jebus.

ETA: And may I add, I was raised in a catholic home by devout catholic parents, but even they considered the tablecloth a complete load.

 

[Giordano]

- Agreed.
If I had taken the time to be sure I was right, our progress would be much slower -- as I'm the one who holds us up, and our pace would be much more on my shoulders.

News: we are already there! There is no progress to be made- the Shroud is conclusively not the burial cloth of Jesus for a huge number of reasons, starting with it not being old enough. Slow or fast, not only are we not going anywhere, we have no place to go.

 

[Loss Leader]

- Agreed.
- I interpreted wrongly the little bit I read.
- Note that "going off half cocked" can be much quicker than going off fully cocked, and you guys can very quickly point out how I'm wrong. If I had taken the time to be sure I was right, our progress would be much slower -- as I'm the one who holds us up, and our pace would be much more on my shoulders.

Another post about something other than the age of the cloth.

 

[carlitos]

Jabba, which language is your "Razor" supposed to be? In case it's italian, as a minimum "Tra gli argomenti, coluiquello che ricorre alla menominor sarcasmo dovrebbe essere selezionatao."

 

[Jabba]

Painting?/Gesso?

Slowvehicle,
1) So far, to my knowledge, the calcium carbonate referred to in papers about the shroud seem to have only to do with dust from the mid-east, and found only in very specific locations on the image.
2) And then, according to Wikipedia, gesso is made up of calcium sulfate, rather than calcium carbonate.
3) Can you direct me to your references?

Slowvehicle,
- You got me on the calcium sulfate claim, (#2), but how about #s 1 and 3?

 

[John Jones]

Slowvehicle,
- You got me on the calcium sulfate claim, (#2), but how about #s 1 and 3?

How about providing your own evidence for your claim#1 above - right after you provide evidence that the shroud is 2000 years old.

 

[Jabba]

Painting?/Gesso?

Your knowledge is, as has been pointed out to you, incorrect.

Modern gesso may be any of a number of calcium salts...medieval gesso was almost always marble dust (calcium carbonate) or bone dust (calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate) suspended in rabbit skin glue...

- From my (little bit of) reading (Wikipedia):
Mixing and applying it is an art form in itself since it is usually applied in 10 or more extremely thin layers. It is a permanent and brilliant white substrate used on wood, masonite and other surfaces. The standard hide glue mixture is rather brittle and susceptible to cracking, thus making it suitable for rigid surfaces only. For priming flexible canvas, an emulsion of gesso and linseed oil, also called "half-chalk ground", is used.[4]
- Can they treat it so as to be used on linen, and not show the results of handling and folding over 700 years?

 

[Kid Eager]

- From my (little bit of) reading (Wikipedia):
Mixing and applying it is an art form in itself since it is usually applied in 10 or more extremely thin layers. It is a permanent and brilliant white substrate used on wood, masonite and other surfaces. The standard hide glue mixture is rather brittle and susceptible to cracking, thus making it suitable for rigid surfaces only. For priming flexible canvas, an emulsion of gesso and linseed oil, also called "half-chalk ground", is used.[4]
- Can they treat it so as to be used on linen, and not show the results of handling and folding over 700 years?

What on earth are you talking about??? Who made any claim about *intact* gesso?

Ultimately, it's all irrelevant as it's utterly trumped by C14 dating evidence. Any discussion of gesso or blood is an embarrassing deflection into "what if" land.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Slowvehicle,
- So far, to my knowledge, the calcium carbonate referred to in papers about the shroud seem to have only to do with dust from the mid-east, and found only in very specific locations on the image.
- And then, according to Wikipedia, gesso is made up of calcium sulfate, rather than calcium carbonate.
- Can you direct me to your references?

Slowvehicle,
- You got me on the calcium sulfate claim, (#2), but how about #s 1 and 3?

Good Morning,Mr. Savage:

First, I did not "get you" on your calcium sulfate claim...your assertion was incorrect, not because of anything I said, but because you did not read all, or even most (or even much) of the source you claimed to supported you...and reality itself intervened.

Going on, this is not the way responding to reality works, "effective debate" or not.

You ("So far, to my knowledge...") are asserting that there are sources that claim that the ubiquitous calcium carbonate found on the CIQ indicates "dust from the mid-east[sic]" and is found in "very specific locations". It is, therefore, up to you to provide those sources, so that they may be read, assessed, and accepted or rebutted.

I have offered you a good source; you have ignored it. I have also spoken to you about gesso from personal experience; you have ignored that. Do you not find this, coupled with the above, to be the slightest bit ironic?

There is a further problem: you have completely ignored the rest of the post to which you pretend to respond:

1. What about the ubiquitous calcium carbonate, indicating gesso?

2. What about the anatomical impossibilities (including, for instance, the chisel-shaped head)?

3. What about the flat representation of a rounded object on a flat surface, showing no sign of the cloth ever having been draped, or wrapped, around an object?

(To say nothing of the other ludicrous claims...do you actually believe that a burst of "resurrection energy" suspended the chisel-pointed body of Jesus in zero gravity while is image was magically transferred to a piece of 780-year-old linen?)

Despite Piczek's claims that the image on the CIQ "cannot be a painting", the truth remains that the image is anatomically ludicrous (do you even begin to understandthe problem with the shape of the head?); posturally impossible ("Shroud Slouch^TM"); and shows none, not any,of the distortion that would occur when a flat surface was wrapped or draped around a three-dimensional object.

And none of this has any bearing at all on the fact that you have yet to present a scintilla of evidence that the CIQ is 2000 years old.

When do you intend to do that?

 

[Slowvehicle]

- From my (little bit of) reading (Wikipedia):
Mixing and applying it is an art form in itself since it is usually applied in 10 or more extremely thin layers. It is a permanent and brilliant white substrate used on wood, masonite and other surfaces. The standard hide glue mixture is rather brittle and susceptible to cracking, thus making it suitable for rigid surfaces only. For priming flexible canvas, an emulsion of gesso and linseed oil, also called "half-chalk ground", is used.[4]
- Can they treat it so as to be used on linen, and not show the results of handling and folding over 700 years?

I can answer your questions, or you could read (among other sources) Bright Earth, but I respectfully decline to pursue this bit of misdirection, which has nothing to do with presenting evidence that the CIQ is 2000 years old.

Suppose you present your evidence, instead.

 

[Dinwar]

- So far, to my knowledge, the calcium carbonate referred to in papers about the shroud seem to have only to do with dust from the mid-east, and found only in very specific locations on the image.

Please allow me (I'm bored).

Jabba, coming from you, "to my knowledge" is meaningless. You have given up any claim to credibility--if nothing else, the repeated demonstration that you don't read your own references proves this.

But I'll bite. There is a specific and rather special carbonate mineral that is prevelant in the Middle East. ANYONE who knows carbonates knows this mineral. What is it? If you can't answer that, you cannot make the above claim.

- Can you direct me to your references?

See, this is where you completely give up credibility. Again, the references used to refute you were YOUR references--specifically, the parts you didn't read.

- Can they treat it so as to be used on linen, and not show the results of handling and folding over 700 years?

I see no reason to believe it couldn't be used on linen. Your own quote gives instructions for applying it to canvas, and the concept would be transferable. As for the notion of "not showing the results of handling and folding over 700 years", it's idiotic and disengenuous. It's pretty clear that we aren't talking about a pristine surface here, but rather one that shows a great deal of alteration. This is why gesso is only found in a few places--it was removed from the rest during the past 700 years.

 

[Craig4]

Slowvehicle,
- You got me on the calcium sulfate claim, (#2), but how about #s 1 and 3?

Who cares if it's on a rag that dates to the 13th century?

 

[Humots]

This is what boggles me. It matters not a whit whether Jebus is real or not, it is more important that the tablecloth is "real".

Because everyone knows that the tablecloth is much more important than Jebus.

ETA: And may I add, I was raised in a catholic home by devout catholic parents, but even they considered the tablecloth a complete load.

I think the situation is that Jabba (like many others) wants a Red Sea parting/leper-curing/honest-to-Lazarus miracle to point to.

It must be something contemporary, very well publicized, and absolutely inexplicable by those wise-guy scientists.

So Jabba is putting his money on the Shroud. It isn't exactly contemporary, but he's claiming it's contemporary evidence of a past miracle.

He would prefer a relic that regenerates lost limbs or gives winning lottery numbers, but no such luck.

 

[Loss Leader]

Slowvehicle,
- You got me on the calcium sulfate claim, (#2), but how about #s 1 and 3?

Another post about something other than the age of the shroud.

- From my (little bit of) reading (Wikipedia):
Mixing and applying it is an art form in itself since it is usually applied in 10 or more extremely thin layers. It is a permanent and brilliant white substrate used on wood, masonite and other surfaces. The standard hide glue mixture is rather brittle and susceptible to cracking, thus making it suitable for rigid surfaces only. For priming flexible canvas, an emulsion of gesso and linseed oil, also called "half-chalk ground", is used.[4]
- Can they treat it so as to be used on linen, and not show the results of handling and folding over 700 years?

And yet another.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Jabba, could you provide a bullet list of evidence we have that the cloth is 2000 years old? And for balance, what age do you think available evidence points to?

 

[Mojo]

Jabba, you really ought to try to submit some evidence that the "shroud" dates from the 1st century.

The Book of Heroic Failures by Stephen Pile includes (at page 151) the story of "the worst prop", a dragon made for the Bayreuth premiere of Siegfried in 1876. It was manufactured in Wandsworth and sent to Bayreuth in sections. By the opening night the head and body had arrived, but the neck never turned up,* so the head had to be attached directly to the body. This made Siegfried look "more like a bully than a hero", and amused the critics no end.

This is the sort of situation we have here. Without evidence your conclusion is directly attached to your premises, and with your tendency to beg the question this really doesn't look good.


*It was rumoured that it had been sent to Beirut by mistake.

 

[John Jones]

- From my (little bit of) reading (Wikipedia):
Mixing and applying it is an art form in itself since it is usually applied in 10 or more extremely thin layers. It is a permanent and brilliant white substrate used on wood, masonite and other surfaces. The standard hide glue mixture is rather brittle and susceptible to cracking, thus making it suitable for rigid surfaces only. For priming flexible canvas, an emulsion of gesso and linseed oil, also called "half-chalk ground", is used.[4]
- Can they treat it so as to be used on linen, and not show the results of handling and folding over 700 years?

What has that got to do with anything? So what if it spalled over the 700 years it's been in existence? Such spalling doesn't help your case.

All these red herrings are an obvious tacit admission that you have no evidence to support authenticity.

What would help your case is some evidence that the CIQ is old enough to be the authentic shroud of Christ (~2000 years old).

 

[Nonpareil]

- From my (little bit of) reading (Wikipedia):
Mixing and applying it is an art form in itself since it is usually applied in 10 or more extremely thin layers. It is a permanent and brilliant white substrate used on wood, masonite and other surfaces. The standard hide glue mixture is rather brittle and susceptible to cracking, thus making it suitable for rigid surfaces only. For priming flexible canvas, an emulsion of gesso and linseed oil, also called "half-chalk ground", is used.[4]
- Can they treat it so as to be used on linen, and not show the results of handling and folding over 700 years?

Allow me to reiterate, since this thread has yet to die the slow death it so dearly deserves:

No one cares about anything you have to say unless it is direct evidence that the Shroud is two thousand years old.

 

[The Don]

Jabba, you really ought to try to submit some evidence that the "shroud" dates from the 1st century.

The Book of Heroic Failures by Stephen Pile includes (at page 151) the story of "the worst prop", a dragon made for the Bayreuth premiere of Siegfried in 1876. It was manufactured in Wandsworth and sent to Bayreuth in sections. By the opening night the head and body had arrived, but the neck never turned up,* so the head had to be attached directly to the body. This made Siegfried look "more like a bully than a hero", and amused the critics no end.

This is the sort of situation we have here. Without evidence your conclusion is directly attached to your premises, and with your tendency to beg the question this really doesn't look good.


*It was rumoured that it had been sent to Beirut by mistake.

I had forgotten how much I enjoyed that book. If this thread has done nothing else, It's provided me with a moment of happy reflection

 

[Rincewind]

Jabba, you really ought to try to submit some evidence that the "shroud" dates from the 1st century.

The Book of Heroic Failures by Stephen Pile includes (at page 151) the story of "the worst prop", a dragon made for the Bayreuth premiere of Siegfried in 1876. It was manufactured in Wandsworth and sent to Bayreuth in sections. By the opening night the head and body had arrived, but the neck never turned up,* so the head had to be attached directly to the body. This made Siegfried look "more like a bully than a hero", and amused the critics no end.

This is the sort of situation we have here. Without evidence your conclusion is directly attached to your premises, and with your tendency to beg the question this really doesn't look good.


*It was rumoured that it had been sent to Beirut by mistake.

Yeah - c'mon Jabba, surely you can do better than this?