Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

Didn't Amanda get back on the Dead's list once she got back as well?
Other than a little use of pot and enjoying sex, she seems to be a pretty solid person.

Gerry Garcia was still alive? China Cat Sunflower, peace ma-aan.

 

[Desert Fox]

Gerry Garcia was still alive? China Cat Sunflower, peace ma-aan.

Look, I know I cannot spell

 

[Bill Williams]

Okay how am mischaracterizing this? Please include where you are getting the information since you weren't following the case at the time.

I also was not present when the Romans abandoned Great Britain c. 5th century; yet I have a good working knowledge of why they left. I have never understood the rationale, "you weren't following it at the time," as part of a hierarchy of understanding.

The best I can do is that I call your thesis a mischaracterization because it does not fit the overall scenario I have of that early period. I actually have no interest in pursuing it further - mainly because like I said, the main issue I have is if AK and/or RS are guilty/innocent on the evidence.

Truly I have neither the interest nor the horsepower, really, to pursue this. Still, it is my belief you are misrepresenting it. I could very well be wrong.

You said you weren't aware of any dogma. Now, you imply you were schooled in some of the dogma. I know it is just your dismissing the point with an attempt at humor. It is obvious that Rudi being a serial burglar is important to the PIP scenario. The biggest proponent lately here made phone access a significant point in that discussion. Now you know.

I do not regard that person as the "biggest proponent". If my humour failed, I apologize. My view is that there is as many "beliefs" about Rudy and his background as there are people following this case PIP or PGP. I am not interested in that, as per above.

Is this a form of no no you're the (fill in the blank)?

It seems to me you go far beyond stating they were innocent legally. As you have repeated often, they have been found not guilty. It's done.

I have for years stated that they clearly were not found guilty BARD and that much of the evidence shouldn't have been admitted.

Okay. I'm not quite sure I follow this part, but I sense I'm in general agreement.

I in no way suggested there was a controlling power that would reach out. But if such an authority exists I hope you are disciplined to the highest degree.

Ouch! I'll copy you the disciplary e-mail!

No the import is that using the remarks after the arrests is questionable. Just as the girls went beyond the pale in their remarks that well could have been the case with the bar buddies' remarks about Rudi. The forensics showed nothing about what he was like before Nov 2007.

All except for his DNA inside the victim.

Diminishing the point with attempts at humor adds nothing.

Apologies. I'm always curious, though, why an individual's views are diminished by claiming that they are "only part of a dogma" from which the devotee will not depart.

Let's drop the term, and I'll be fine!

 

[Planigale]

What??? Mez was at Leeds University, one of the UK's highest ranked "red bricks".


ETA In any case, Amanda was not with Uni of Washington whilst in Italy. There is no evidence she was on the Dean's list, or an honours graduate. Or even that she graduated.

OK for once I agree with Vixen. Leeds is a good uni. I am familiar with world rankings and I'm not sure if you did the stats there would be a meaningful difference between the academic standing of U W or Leeds Uni. They are both good universities, just not as good as mine. MK was doing as legitimate a course as AK (actually probably a more demanding course), since UW offers a liberal arts degree whilst Leeds does only speciality degrees. World rankings are hugely influenced by the post graduate / research component of the uni and not the undergraduate / teaching component. UW ranks no where in creative writing.

 

[Planigale]

There are lots of loose ends. What happened downstairs. I agree with those who argue it was a lot of blood for a cat, and why did the samples come up positive for human DNA. Kokomani is odd in many senses. Guede, burglar or not still a loose end. To some extent all irrelevant to the question of whether Sollecito / Knox are innocent.

 

[Dougm]

There are lots of loose ends. What happened downstairs. I agree with those who argue it was a lot of blood for a cat, and why did the samples come up positive for human DNA. Kokomani is odd in many senses. Guede, burglar or not still a loose end. To some extent all irrelevant to the question of whether Sollecito / Knox are innocent.

I think every case has loose ends, lots of them. That is why those ridiculous PG arguments about Amanda getting a ticket for a loud party, or smoking pot, or having a sex life, are so off base.

I agree that the information we know about Guede's past does not in and of itself make him a likely murderer. But when combined with the forensic evidence, it forms a narrative that seems likely. But the evidence is far more important than any speculation about Rudy's personal behavior.

 

[Desert Fox]

I think every case has loose ends, lots of them. That is why those ridiculous PG arguments about Amanda getting a ticket for a loud party, or smoking pot, or having a sex life, are so off base.

I agree that the information we know about Guede's past does not in and of itself make him a likely murderer. But when combined with the forensic evidence, it forms a narrative that seems likely. But the evidence is far more important than any speculation about Rudy's personal behavior.

My argument is mostly that I think there were warning signs that something like this was possible and it makes him a more probable suspect than Amanda and Raff. I would never convict based on probable however.

 

[acbytesla]

Didn't Amanda get back on the Dead's list once she got back as well?
Other than a little use of pot and enjoying sex, she seems to be a pretty solid person.

I don't know...I don't actually think so. I know her priorities shifted a bit She had to finish her book...and then promote it. She did graduate last spring. Who really cares about whether or not she made the Dean's list every quarter ?

I don't.

This is all about some people with a bizarre need to paint as negative a picture of Amanda as they can.

 

[LondonJohn]

OK for once I agree with Vixen. Leeds is a good uni. I am familiar with world rankings and I'm not sure if you did the stats there would be a meaningful difference between the academic standing of U W or Leeds Uni. They are both good universities, just not as good as mine. MK was doing as legitimate a course as AK (actually probably a more demanding course), since UW offers a liberal arts degree whilst Leeds does only speciality degrees. World rankings are hugely influenced by the post graduate / research component of the uni and not the undergraduate / teaching component. UW ranks no where in creative writing.

Not as good as my uni either

I'd also add that in regard to study abroad, it's arguable that Knox studying in Perugia was a more impressive and more outstanding achievement than Kercher studying in Perugia. Knox basically had to do almost everything off her own bat, albeit with the support and approval of UW. And (contrary to Vixen's insinuations) Knox was due to get course credits at UW from her studying in Perugia.

By contrast, Kercher was almost automatically going through the Erasmus study-abroad programme that was an integral part of her degree course. Indeed, she'd have had to have been a really bad student not to have been sent on a study year abroad. I knew plenty of language students (or students whose courses had links to European studies) when I was at uni - including my then-girlfriend - who all automatically went abroad for a year after their second year. The only thing they had to choose was exactly which city and which uni (from the list provided) they were going to go to. From then on, almost everything was sorted out.

 

[carbonjam72]

'Reasonable alternatives' is how we reasonable folk roll...

IMO there's a big difference between forming your own internal historical sense of the case vs the PGP trying to assert some outrageous conjecture as a proven judicial truth that serves to physically lock people up in a dungeon.

For example, I find the crime scenes at the law office and cottage similar enough, with enough connecting idiosyncratic features, that it would be too coincidental to me for Guede to be connected to them for a reason other than being the perpetrator of both break-ins. This is just how I interpret the narrative of the crime in my mind. This is different from viewing it as a proven established truth. To put it in modern terms, the Wikipedia article should not say "Guede is a career burglar who broke into the law office and the cottage." But I think it's a perfectly acceptable opinion to form from the actual hard evidence that's available in lieu of contradictory information or more plausible alternative theories.

I agree. Hard direct 'perfect' proof is rarely available, we're always making judgements informed by available facts and evidence. Rudy's connection to both crime scenes by evidence at the scene or items taken therefrom, the idiosyncratic nature of the break-ins, making piles of glass but a mess of possessions, making himself at home by eating food and turning up the heat, etc. Rudy did have a kind of break-in signature.

Were there two or more such 2nd story men at that time, in that vicinity? What is the reasonable alternative?

And Rudy going back to the law office to explain that he didn't break-in and steal their stuff, but bought it innocently in Milan? How nuts is that?

Look at how many bad things keep happening to Rudy! He buys stolen goods in Milan. His date gets murdered whole he's on the toilet - and he didn't even have time to pull up his pants, but he did have time to use toilet paper - the murderer's timing is uncanny!

Never was any mystery here, imo. All lies and distractions from Mignini et als. Hopefully they'll now have their turn in the dock, and get a stiff sentence for their misdeeds.

 

[Grinder]

I also was not present when the Romans abandoned Great Britain c. 5th century; yet I have a good working knowledge of why they left. I have never understood the rationale, "you weren't following it at the time," as part of a hierarchy of understanding.

Very comparable. Yes please give 140 character sum why the Romans "abandoned" GB. My guess is they were forced out and didn't abandon.

They coverage of the case in 2008 -2010 was by print and broadcast media. I'm not aware of radio and local TV broadcast archives that are easily accessed. Dempsey's blog gives a flavor as she early on became an outlet for FOA talking points.

People that were there add an element not captured by reading the tabs and true crime novels. I'm not saying you and all that joined along the way don't a better knowledge of the case than I do, but this small element is difficult to understand without being there.

For example we will never know how much the food in England had to do with the Romans losing control.

The best I can do is that I call your thesis a mischaracterization because it does not fit the overall scenario I have of that early period. I actually have no interest in pursuing it further - mainly because like I said, the main issue I have is if AK and/or RS are guilty/innocent on the evidence.

What is your idea of the scenario?

 

[carbonjam72]

Was there ever a claim that she wasn't? There would be records of who is on duty and when and this would have been used against CT's claim if it were verified that she was not on duty at the time CT claimed he contacted her. We also have plenty of evidence that she was working late into the night on the 5th so your doubt that she could be working off hours is unfounded.

IIRC, Nina Burleigh reported Chistian Trematano (I know this spelling is wrong) tried to report it and Napoleoni took CT's complaint, but he gave up when the line was too long.

So why would the presumption that Nina Burleigh is unreliable prevail in a reasonable discourse? We don't have her notes of course, but do you have any indication of her blowing facts like that?

Why does stubborn 'skepticism' outweigh our confidence in a proven professional?

 

[Grinder]

I agree. Hard direct 'perfect' proof is rarely available, we're always making judgements informed by available facts and evidence. Rudy's connection to both crime scenes by evidence at the scene or items taken therefrom, the idiosyncratic nature of the break-ins, making piles of glass but a mess of possessions, making himself at home by eating food and turning up the heat, etc. Rudy did have a kind of break-in signature.

Were there two or more such 2nd story men at that time, in that vicinity? What is the reasonable alternative?

Another person was the burglar at the lawyers' office. Throwing rock through a windows isn't really an MO. The same person could have been with Rudi on Nov. 1st. It doesn't seem impossible that the ICSI either didn't find any evidence of this person or we don't know about all the forensic that aren't easily explainable.

Google "rock through a window" burglary

About 14,600 results (0.43 seconds)
Search Results
Would-be burglars apparently threw a rock through a ...
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Oct 11, 1996 - Roselle — Would-be burglars apparently threw a rock through a window Sunday at St. Mary's Church, 1700 Larson Lane, police said, but did ...
Criminal Law and Procedure: An Overview
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Ronald Bacigal, ‎Mary Tate - 2014 - ‎Law
Although some statutes create entirely new definitions of theft, most ... Throwing a rock through a window is a breaking but not an entry for purposes of burglary.
Cash, Laptops Stolen In Reseda Church Burglary - CBS Los ...
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Phoenix teen charged in burglary spree that included police ...
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Oct 17, 2014 - Phoenix teen charged in burglary spree that included police chief's ... “His MO was to throw a rock through a window and leave to see if the ...
Police Search for Suspected Burglary Vehicle | www.abc19.tv
abc19.tv › News › Crime / Investigative
WKPT‑TV
Feb 13, 2015 - An unknown suspect had thrown a large rock through a window and stolen three Cub Cadet chainsaws (total value over $900) that were on ...
South Lake police investigate string of burglaries - Record ...
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Oct 25, 2014 - Shards of glass rest in a box after they were cleaned up at Enchanted Florist following a burglary. The suspects threw a rock through a window.
Brazen burglar seen on surveillance in Seward Park ...
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Apr 7, 2015 - RAW VIDEO: Surveillance of Seward Park burglar gallery ... window, looks around and then throws a rock through a window, the video shows.
Criminal Evidence - Page 768 - Google Books Result
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1437735045
Jefferson L. Ingram - 2011 - ‎Law
Here the inferences are twofold: (1) attempted burglary or (2) vandalism or ... that when he threw a rock through a window he intended to enter the premises.
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Officers think the burglars crawled in after throwing a rock through a window and then rummaged through office drawers, throwing papers on the floor and ...
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Sep 9, 2014 - Burglars targeting tobacco shops across metro Atlanta ... in each case, with someone throwing a rock through a window, and stealing cash from ...

And Rudy going back to the law office to explain that he didn't break-in and steal their stuff, but bought it innocently in Milan? How nuts is that?

It seems more nuts if he did the burglary.

Never was any mystery here, imo. All lies and distractions from Mignini et als. Hopefully they'll now have their turn in the dock, and get a stiff sentence for their misdeeds.

What did Mignini have to do with this or is this the equivalent to "all the lies" of the PGP?

 

[Grinder]

IIRC, Nina Burleigh reported Chistian Trematano (I know this spelling is wrong) tried to report it and Napoleoni took CT's complaint, but he gave up when the line was too long.

Not what either of our favorite TCN writers wrote.

Nina says he later told Napoleoni that he caught a guy... She make the time between 1-4 am adding to the case that Italians have a dearth of clock. She later says he called the police after the intruder left. He called the police emergency number but never filed a report. I doubt the chief of the Flying Squad works the swing shift. I doubt she went out to reports like this and certainly no one has produced her report. From all sources it would seem he called and they told him to come and file a report but he never did. Later after he came forward in this case he was interviewed by Napoleoni.

Follain had him telling Napoleoni that he had surprised a black at 6 am. Follain has him spotting the black at Domus and says his name was Rudi G but we know he only found out the name in the papers.

So why would the presumption that Nina Burleigh is unreliable prevail in a reasonable discourse? We don't have her notes of course, but do you have any indication of her blowing facts like that?

Go back and read her stuff. She doesn't say CT spoke with Nappy that night but leaves that impression. In the case of CT she can be believed as the basics are well known but she doesn't actually say what she left you and other PIP thinking. I doubt that will stop people from saying Nappy took the swing shift report.

When asked about Diaz she told Tesla that she didn't care what some guilter thought and then didn't provide anything. Had she really been the only one or evn one of a few to get the scoop why not be proud of it and email the police report or something. A yes I think the public has the right to ask for proof even from a writer.

Why does stubborn 'skepticism' outweigh our confidence in a proven professional?

Appeal to position? She didn't write a non-fiction book. She wrote a TCN.

Dan O asked if anyone had challenged the Nappy report. I ask who 5 years after the fact in official position would?

 

[Bill Williams]

Very comparable. Yes please give 140 character sum why the Romans "abandoned" GB. My guess is they were forced out and didn't abandon.

It was a complex retreat, which included Constantine III proclaiming himself emperor of the Roman Empire but then almost immediately having to set off for Gaul to short up the Empire there from the Vandals.

However, it does not seem that they were never "forced out" in any meaningful sense of that term. The fact that the Legions had not been paid in G.B. for a long time did not help with morale! But the choices among historians is that the Romans either abandoned G.B., or that who are called the "Romano-Britons" revolted and would not accept Roman rule. However, even that did not "force them out." After that, there simply was no political will in Rome to enforce their rule. By 410 A.D. the Romans were (effectively) gone of their own volition.

They coverage of the case in 2008 -2010 was by print and broadcast media. I'm not aware of radio and local TV broadcast archives that are easily accessed. Dempsey's blog gives a flavor as she early on became an outlet for FOA talking points.

So - how did the print media do in those days!? All my reading said they did a very poor job. Just because someone takes a side (Dempsey), does not mean they are incorrect. My view is that it's not even clear that she took a side; what she did was report facts as she saw them. There is no realy reason to believe her bias controlled her assembly of facts, and every reason to believe her assmebly of facts created her bias.

Most certainly, the March 2015 Italian Supreme Court seems to agree with her!

People that were there add an element not captured by reading the tabs and true crime novels. I'm not saying you and all that joined along the way don't a better knowledge of the case than I do, but this small element is difficult to understand without being there.

Where is this "there" you are referring to?

For example we will never know how much the food in England had to do with the Romans losing control.

Probably not.

What is your idea of the scenario?

I believed I covered that by saying that it is not a subject, really, which interests me.

 

[Grinder]

Dempsey's blog will not be validated by the ISC. In past when I pointed out clear error there I was told it didn't count because it was just a blog. If it isn't clear that she had a side from near the beginning then I see the confusion about those Romans.

You wrote: The best I can do is that I call your thesis a mischaracterization because it does not fit the overall scenario I have of that early period.

What is that scenario of yours? You say I'm wrong even though you weren't paying attention and then won't give your version?

Those were the Dogma days Summer. Much of meme was put together then.

 

[Samson]

What??? Mez was at Leeds University, one of the UK's highest ranked "red bricks".


ETA In any case, Amanda was not with Uni of Washington whilst in Italy. There is no evidence she was on the Dean's list, or an honours graduate. Or even that she graduated.

I find this a very strange post, because it is so easily falsifiable.

 

[acbytesla]

Although many on the PIP side do argue that Rudy was a serial burglar, was a drifter, was aggressive with women, etc., I agree that the evidence for much of this is based on some conjecture, which works best if the person making the conjectures already believes that Rudy is guilty of Meredith's murder. But I think the reason that PIP posters often don't reply to challenges to this information is that it doesn't really matter.

I think that who Rudy was, and if he was a fence, or a burglar, or whatever, is interesting background, but largely immaterial. The evidence at the murder scene shows that Rudy Guede killed Meredith Kercher, by himself. Some of these other points support the idea that he was the kind of person that might end up in such a situation, and his behavior that night seems consistent with his previous behavior (in regards to breaking into offices, nursery schools, homes, etc.). But even if he was the Mayor of Perugia, and had never violated any laws before, he would still be guilty of the murder, and the evidence of that would be clear.

There may be some who can't get over the idea that Rudy had to have been a burglar, drug dealer, etc., but what I see when people argue that is that it makes sense, based on what evidence we have. But it is not essential to solving the crime. What is clear from the evidence is:
1) Mez was killed;
2) Rudy was there, and had never been there before;
3) He was there at the time the killing occured;
4) There is no reliable evidence that anyone else was there at that time;
5) His story about why he was there, and what happened when he was there, is not believable.

There may be a "dogma" around who Rudy was and why, but it is not a driver of the case, or the fact that Knox and Sollecito are innocent. Rudy did it. They didn't. That is true if Rudy was a burglar, or a fence, or a successful businessman. The story of Rudy as a drifter, burglar, and guy who annoyed women and fell asleep on toilets fits the narrative, and seems to be the most likely true story. But he is still the killer, regardless of how one wants to portray him.

I have little doubt that Rudy committed at least a few burglaries. But I don't think he was a professional burglar having committed many many burglaries. I think he was a fledgling burglar. There simply can't be that much money in stealing laptops and cell phones from students.

But you are right. Doug. It is all irrelevant. The evidence that he committed the murder is substantial. One doesn't have to prove that Rudy was a serial burglar to prove that he killed Meredith. Whether or not Rudy was burglarizing the nursery or just looking for a place to sleep, we'll never know.

 

[Bill Williams]

Dempsey's blog will not be validated by the ISC. In past when I pointed out clear error there I was told it didn't count because it was just a blog. If it isn't clear that she had a side from near the beginning then I see the confusion about those Romans.

You wrote: The best I can do is that I call your thesis a mischaracterization because it does not fit the overall scenario I have of that early period.

What is that scenario of yours? You say I'm wrong even though you weren't paying attention and then won't give your version?

Those were the Dogma days Summer. Much of meme was put together then.

Yes, I said all that. We now need to define mischaracterization, as distinct from "wrong", because I do not know if you are wrong. My own definition is the best I can do, and that might be the issue more than anything.

 

[Bill Williams]

There may be a "dogma" around who Rudy was and why, but it is not a driver of the case, or the fact that Knox and Sollecito are innocent. Rudy did it. They didn't. That is true if Rudy was a burglar, or a fence, or a successful businessman. The story of Rudy as a drifter, burglar, and guy who annoyed women and fell asleep on toilets fits the narrative, and seems to be the most likely true story. But he is still the killer, regardless of how one wants to portray him.

I have little doubt that Rudy committed at least a few burglaries. But I don't think he was a professional burglar having committed many many burglaries. I think he was a fledgling burglar. There simply can't be that much money in stealing laptops and cell phones from students.

But you are right. Doug. It is all irrelevant. The evidence that he committed the murder is substantial. One doesn't have to prove that Rudy was a serial burglar to prove that he killed Meredith. Whether or not Rudy was burglarizing the nursery or just looking for a place to sleep, we'll never know.

I agree. This is a far better way of putting all of it than I have been able to manage. Whatever the early "dogma" was, even then it was not the driver of the case - what tended to drive this case was the myth of "Foxy Knoxy" that the PLE tried to construct. There is very little which emanated from the FOA which "drove" what went wrong with the case in Perugia (and Florence) - unless one believes in all powerful PR firms from Seattle!

I posted a Washington Post article upthread which referred to the 1990s and beyond where there were some prosecutorial jurisdictions which seemed stuck on Satanic-related crimes. There was one in Martensville, Saskatchewan. Over 100 charges were filed, and one conviction resulted, in a satanic-hysteria which took over the investigation.

It is clear that in relation to AK (as well as RS), this theme was a driver; but was also abandoned. Seems to me to be something a little more central to what went wrong early on than anything the early FOA did or didn't do.